Hello

#1 Removed by editor due to incorrect info.

#2 So this is how I understand it:

I need TGE to run TSE (TSE = plugin)

Then I buy extra packs, like the RTS, FPS, etc.

#3 In my understanding TSE is not a plugin, it's a standalone distribution of TGE with shader stuff to it (+ some other new rendering I think). But right now TSE is only available for TGE owners.

And you don't need to buy extra packs to create an FPS game, but if you want to create a RTS you probably want to get the RTS pack so you won't have to all the coding by yourself.

#4 You mention "playing" the demos. In fact, both TGE and A6 have programming demos. I recommend downloading each and trying to program a simple game in each. That is what I did to make my decision.

My first time around, comparing Blitz3D, Torque, and A6:

A6- Lots of neat features, very easy to plug together a bunch of cool stuff and have an immediate game, comes with a nice development environment. I got frustrated because I found a few broken features.

Blitz3D- Much less in the way of features than A6, but every thing worked. In fact, everything worked easily. documentation was simple, well put together, easy to find. Blitz3D is probably the easiest language I ever learned.

Torque - Couldn't find the documentation. Someone on IRC recommended getting the demo and modding it, so I tried that. Looking at about 100 files of script without a good script manual just blew me away.

Of these I chose Blitz3D. I was very happy with it, enjoyed making some simple games fast. I really wanted to make more complicated games though, and Blitz only really works well for small games. So I started looking again (I still like Blitz and use it to mess around with small games on occassion).

This time I found not only Torque, but also its documentation :) The script manual, some tutorials... I got really excited by everything I found here and started spending a few hours per day reading stuff on this site, learning all I could about the engine, following the tutorials, reading the entire script manual. I got hooked. The documentation can be hard to follow at times, but Torque has one big thing going for it over the others, access to the C++ source code. If you don't understand something, look at where it is defined and source and it will become clear. Think something is broken? You have the power to fix it. Missing a cool feature that you want? Add the feature. Better still, check out the "resources" link on the right side of your browser window. Other people have added an incredible variety of things, and explained how they did it. Usually it's just a matter of downloading a file and adding it to your version of Torque. There's also a collection of "code snipits" which change the c++ source to add features, but you won't see that til after you buy.

Edit:
I've heard that it's hard to produce artwork for Torque. I can't comment on this as I never tried. I focus strictly on the programming. Also, the demo of A6 was a fairly old version of A6 (early version 6, probably a lot of problems with it resulting from major changes in new version). So chances are the full version is not as buggy as the demo. I wasn't willing to pay to find out.

#5 TSE is a seperate engine to TGE. They do require you to own a TGE license before owning a TSE license, but you do not need TGE to compile TSE.

#6 @Eric, your post started me thinking, which is a dangerous thing. I have no coding knowledge at all, in fact, the last thing I coded was a little animated sprite man on my C64, who later got crushed by a giant weight. I was playing alot of The Trap Door back then. ;) Anyhow, You talk about the documentation and tutorials, would you think its feasible for someone like moi, to teach myself how to manipulate the Torque engine? I mean I don't know C++, so I won't be able to look at the source, but what could I do without that knowledge?

I am asking because currently I am looking for a coder, and so far nothing, so I was thinking of doing it myself in a fashion. At least I would have something when I do find a coder perhaps.

Cheers,
Ian

#7 From TSE product page:

Quote:This is a ground up rewrite of Torque's rendering engine to take advantage of modern shader cards and DirectX 9

Quote:NOTE: Torque Shader Engine Early Adopter Release requires ownership of the Torque Game Engine "Indie License". The Commercial License is not yet available. Watch this site for news as to its release.

So as far as I understand:

TSE is TGE but with the core rendering engine rewritten and the addition of a lot of cool features. Also, the requirement for an TGE licence is for the EA release only.

#8 TSE is the next level of TGE. It builds upon the TGE sourcebase and adds a number of excellent next-gen engine features. Key among them is shader technology, which everyone is gaga about right now with games like Doom 3, Half-Life 2, and Farcry ripping up the market. It also adds terrain improvements, interior improvements, etc. Most of them are related to the rendering process, but also to the next-gen development mentality.

The TSE Early Adopter release was made available to TGE owners to help bughunt, assess the feature-creep list in terms of priorities, and get the community excited about being involved in the development of an inexpensive next-generation game engine. The final release will be a rigorously tested engine that the community has had a good amount of time to utilize, which means excellent resources. And we all know how much we love resources around here.

The RTS pack (and upcoming RPG pack) are starter packs. This simply means that they get you up and running with core functionality that you can modify and extend as necesssary. They are not an end-to-end solution. They are there to save you development time. If you have the time or money to make them yourself, then you can. You don't have to buy them to make a RTS game. But they will give your dev time a heads up (and the RTS pack has an excellent community). The Synapse Gaming Lighting Pack is definitely one place where your money will be well spend, though. Again, you could revamp the lighting system yourself (you have the source), but Jorhn has done one hell of a job on the pack. It currently supports TGE, but he has his eye on TSE in the future as well.

One product that I can't help but recommend is the ShowTool Pro, though. I learned more about DTS files from using this tool for ten minutes than all of my searching and exporting experiences in the past. It's an amazing artpath tool to help you discover errors or where you need to make tweaks or potential problems.

@Ian
Well, the source for Torque is in C++, so any source modification will require such knowledge. A huge amount of the engine can be modified via scripting. Many of us dig into the source because we're extremely familiar with C++. Often, you'll get the impression that we ignore scripting and head to the source. This can be true, but there is a huge amount of variability available in TorqueScript, as the book 3D Game Programming All In One proves. There's also a TorqueScript chat that shows a great way to think outside of the source box.

Of course, to maximize your benefit, it's a good idea to learn C++. Remember also that you can't transfer the license. If your coder isn't a Torque license holder, you can't give them the source to work with.

#9 @Ian... if you want to make a game that uses basic FPS ideas (or RTS ideas if you buy the RTS Starter Kit) then you can avoid coding and just learn scripting (scripting is much easier to learn and understand)... if you want to make something more dynamic however you will have to learn coding or make good use of the available (and future) kits and resources...

I completely beleive the only thing limiting anyone is themselves, need to evaluate whether you have the movitation and desire to keep that motivation to do it... if you do and tell yourself you can do it, you can do it...

#10 Gah! You people are making me want to spend money. This is a bad thing! Bad people! :p

Ok thats a good point about the license holder. Well I am reading the guide at the moment. I figure if I do purchase it, the worst that can happen is I pickup a skill like scripting or something similar, via using the editors. So even if a coder takes over, I can maybe help out with levels etc.

Hmmm...

Ian

#11 Some basic scripting knowledge is very useful for artists also... going to teach the interior developer on my team and the interface designer some basic scripting... of course focused towards their area... for example... the interface designer should know basic scripting of interfaces in Torque... not that hard... maybe some basic gameplay dynamics scripting so she can test out interfaces that effect gameplay (or even the basic gameplay interface)...

the interior designer will also be working with some basic dts objects (ones that will be more dynamic) so he'll need to know how to script basic static shapes... different properties to them, maybe making animations and playing them from triggers, etc....

plus if your artists learn scripting to do very basic game interfaces they can test some of their ideas on it... ideas that they just need to slap together with some of their art...

so I think as an artist one would highly benefit from learning scripting :) Makes yoru development less constrained on the programmer which in turns gives the programmer more time and freedom to devlop their own aspects.

#12 Heh, I just got to the part that said, 'Close down your Torque demo'
...
I was like, I can do this in the demo? Whoops. So now I am actually checking the demo out heh.

*whistles and wanders off casually*

Ian

#13 Some basic scripting knowledge is very useful for artists also... going to teach the interior developer on my team and the interface designer some basic scripting... of course focused towards their area... for example... the interface designer should know basic scripting of interfaces in Torque... not that hard... maybe some basic gameplay dynamics scripting so she can test out interfaces that effect gameplay (or even the basic gameplay interface)...

the interior designer will also be working with some basic dts objects (ones that will be more dynamic) so he'll need to know how to script basic static shapes... different properties to them, maybe making animations and playing them from triggers, etc....

plus if your artists learn scripting to do very basic game interfaces they can test some of their ideas on it... ideas that they just need to slap together with some of their art...

so I think as an artist one would highly benefit from learning scripting :) Makes yoru development less constrained on the programmer which in turns gives the programmer more time and freedom to devlop their own aspects.

#14 @Ian
So, you want to be a coder. Don't worry about knowing C++. That would make the process go a bit faster and easier but isn't really necessary.

First step is definitely to learn scripting, whether or not you know C++. The tutorials are great for that. My favorites were the codesampler tutorials which gave me everything I needed (including a modified copy of the Torque demo) and told me exactly where to go and what to type. It felt dumb going through a set of exercises where I wasn't asked to think about anything, but I learned a surprising amount in a short amount of time. Also, the fact that I wasn't forced to do any thinking made it easier to keep plugging away.

Don't be afraid of the C++ source code. You can get a lot done in source code without really understanding the language (sounds weird but give it a shot). Next time you run across some command in script that you don't understand, go to the TGE source code. Do a search on the name of that command in whatever file search tool your operating system has. It will tell you which files make references to that command. Now open one of those files and search within that file. Find where it mentions your command. Start reading at that point. Just skip past any symbols or words that don't make sense to you and focus on what is left. You will learn a surprising amount about how that command works just by looking at code that you don't really understand.

The other newbie thing you can do with C++ source is to install other people's resources. Browse through the code snipits (only licensed TGE owners can see these) and choose one that you like. There will be very detailed instructions about how to modify the source to make some new feature work. Kinda like the tutorials except you will be modifying C++ code.

Neither activity actually requires knowing C++, but you will start to get a feel for it over time. Eventually you might get an idea of doing something similar to one of the code snipits, changing a few things here or there and following someone else's example. It's an exciting and painless process to becoming a coder. Don't push yourself, just do the easy stuff and the rest comes natural.

#15 @Eric: Excellent, thanks for the advice. I was this close " " to buying Torque earlier, but I decided to poke around a little first, to see if I could actually do something with it, otherwise its all for naught. I am probably going to buy the 3D Game Programming All in One book, as people have given feedback it really helped them get started and explained lots of the basic stuff.

At the moment I am working through Dan "Nerseus" Jones's Super Simple Torque Demo, are these the codesampler tutorials you mentioned?

@Corrie: Apologies, I appear to have hijacked your thread. You may have it back now. ;)

Cheers!
Ian

#16 Codesampler Tutorials

#17 LOL no problem! I learned a few things :)