Darkbasic Pro Vs Torque
by David · in General Discussion · 02/06/2005 (4:15 pm) · 19 replies
I have been around looking for a great gamemaking program/engine.
Found this and DB PRO!!!
Woundering wish one is the best and what do you think about them both!
Thanx!
Found this and DB PRO!!!
Woundering wish one is the best and what do you think about them both!
Thanx!
About the author
#2
Torque is a game engine with the complete source code. It's like buying an Unreal license, but with a completely different toolchain and support base. But it's a full game engine that has fueled several titles. It also won't create your game for you and you'll have to put a huge amount of time into learning how to program and tweak the engine. It's huge. Really huge.
Basically, it comes down to you. Do you have the determination to actually create your game from scratch or to learn the internals and figure out what you need to create from scratch and what you need to use? This seems like an easy question to answer, but it's one of the most important ones that you can ask. There are a LOT of people who own licenses to a number of game engines, and very few that have done anything of note with them. Honestly sit down and evaluate your skills and don't think about how much you want to make Devil May Cry/World of Warcraft/Tekken 5. Think about whether you would rather take your time from 5-midnight for the next year and learn to create Pong, then Pac-Man, and then move on to your pet game concept. Or give up after two weeks of idle frustration, which is much, much more common.
I'm not being a downer. I'm just trying to evaluate whether you want to become an active member of a development community or if you'll make ten posts about how nothing can be done with whatever program you're using...and then disappear because sometimes making games isn't nearly as fun as playing them. In fact, it's work. Hard work. And you have to love what you do to actually keep doing it. Or make a lot of money to compensate...and indie game dev isn't the most lucrative career in terms of cash. It's lucrative in a lot of other ways, but it's EXTREMELY rare to get rich doing it. It's slightly less rare to start a project and finish it, regardless of what engine or language or game maker you use.
02/06/2005 (5:09 pm)
They're completely different types of products, but neither one is really a "gamemaking program". DarkBASIC is a DirectX wrapper for Windows-centric programs that uses the BASIC language. Personally, I like Blitz more, even though I've had more problems with it among different graphics cards. It doesn't seem to require as many expensive end-user graphics card features at the same expense in execution time. Both will require you to write your own engine. They will make it easier, but if you have no idea how a game engine is put together, all the file loaders in the world and shader features won't matter.Torque is a game engine with the complete source code. It's like buying an Unreal license, but with a completely different toolchain and support base. But it's a full game engine that has fueled several titles. It also won't create your game for you and you'll have to put a huge amount of time into learning how to program and tweak the engine. It's huge. Really huge.
Basically, it comes down to you. Do you have the determination to actually create your game from scratch or to learn the internals and figure out what you need to create from scratch and what you need to use? This seems like an easy question to answer, but it's one of the most important ones that you can ask. There are a LOT of people who own licenses to a number of game engines, and very few that have done anything of note with them. Honestly sit down and evaluate your skills and don't think about how much you want to make Devil May Cry/World of Warcraft/Tekken 5. Think about whether you would rather take your time from 5-midnight for the next year and learn to create Pong, then Pac-Man, and then move on to your pet game concept. Or give up after two weeks of idle frustration, which is much, much more common.
I'm not being a downer. I'm just trying to evaluate whether you want to become an active member of a development community or if you'll make ten posts about how nothing can be done with whatever program you're using...and then disappear because sometimes making games isn't nearly as fun as playing them. In fact, it's work. Hard work. And you have to love what you do to actually keep doing it. Or make a lot of money to compensate...and indie game dev isn't the most lucrative career in terms of cash. It's lucrative in a lot of other ways, but it's EXTREMELY rare to get rich doing it. It's slightly less rare to start a project and finish it, regardless of what engine or language or game maker you use.
#3
If I had to use Darkbasic to make a game, I'd quite game development today.
Much depends on the kind of game your going to make, and what kinds of skills you and your team has. Plus the tools you want to use to develop your game. If your fmiliar with modding games like unreal, halflife etc, then torque is probably going to be pretty easy to pick up. But those tools aren't for everyone, and the engine is mostly geared to wards specific types of games, and requires a lot of technical programming knowledge to rebuild the engine into something more suitable for other genres.
Darkbasic is pretty buggy, things break down from one build to the next and also pretty slow but does use DX9. If your going to use a language like darkbasic get something like blitz3D, particularly if your team is using 3dsmax, as it has the best 3dsmax exporter out there for any engine. and you can use max for building your levels. Shortcoming s of blitz3d are that it's DX7, and pretty slow without a good understanding in regards to optimizing the graphics renderer. You can easily outdo darkbasic though and in many cases torque too.
My word of advice would be to stay away from Darkbasic, its a toy, and the syntax is very poor. Of the two products you mention Torque is the best.
02/07/2005 (12:01 am)
If your going to use one of the basic languages, I'd go with Blitzbasic. Much better than Darkbasic despite using an older API. Other than that Torque gives you a complete engine, BLitz or Darkbasic give you a language, but you will have to build your own engine either yourself of through public resource the communities create for people to use. If I had to use Darkbasic to make a game, I'd quite game development today.
Much depends on the kind of game your going to make, and what kinds of skills you and your team has. Plus the tools you want to use to develop your game. If your fmiliar with modding games like unreal, halflife etc, then torque is probably going to be pretty easy to pick up. But those tools aren't for everyone, and the engine is mostly geared to wards specific types of games, and requires a lot of technical programming knowledge to rebuild the engine into something more suitable for other genres.
Darkbasic is pretty buggy, things break down from one build to the next and also pretty slow but does use DX9. If your going to use a language like darkbasic get something like blitz3D, particularly if your team is using 3dsmax, as it has the best 3dsmax exporter out there for any engine. and you can use max for building your levels. Shortcoming s of blitz3d are that it's DX7, and pretty slow without a good understanding in regards to optimizing the graphics renderer. You can easily outdo darkbasic though and in many cases torque too.
My word of advice would be to stay away from Darkbasic, its a toy, and the syntax is very poor. Of the two products you mention Torque is the best.
#4
http://www.gamemaker.nl/
The scripting engine seems quite flexible, too, though you can do quite a bit with just the UI. I would suggest it for anyone who is completely new to game development.
I have been using BlitzBasic for a year and a half and really like it, though the language can be a bit restrictive once you reach a certain level of complexity. I'm hoping BlitzMax will help in that area when it's released, but I may consider other tools like Torque.
And David Blake is right about the time investment required to get proficient, especially finishing games, which is way harder than you might think. It's taken me a year to finish two simple 2D games, and will soon finish my 3rd, though I have spent a lot of that time just experimenting with ideas. You have to enjoy the process, but there's no harm in starting small and testing the waters.
02/07/2005 (1:19 am)
I have played around with GameMaker a bit, and it seems quite good for cranking out simple 2D games: http://www.gamemaker.nl/
The scripting engine seems quite flexible, too, though you can do quite a bit with just the UI. I would suggest it for anyone who is completely new to game development.
I have been using BlitzBasic for a year and a half and really like it, though the language can be a bit restrictive once you reach a certain level of complexity. I'm hoping BlitzMax will help in that area when it's released, but I may consider other tools like Torque.
And David Blake is right about the time investment required to get proficient, especially finishing games, which is way harder than you might think. It's taken me a year to finish two simple 2D games, and will soon finish my 3rd, though I have spent a lot of that time just experimenting with ideas. You have to enjoy the process, but there's no harm in starting small and testing the waters.
#5
Torque is a good tool
DBPro is an ok tool, a bit limited, has its uses though, can crank games out much quicker.
A friend of mind uses GML (Game Maker Language) and it seems effective for what it can do. He has hit his roof on it though, his ambition and skill surpass it though he seems to think he cannot do more than its simple interface allows. He could do so much more in a powerful took like Torque... Thats my only thing against tools that are very easy to use. I think they're great to learn on, but far too easy for someone to limit themselves. You need to know when to grow out of what you do. Torque can be extremely intimidating... and it should be! It takes a lot of work and time to even begin to understand it, though the best of things take a lot of time. Just have confidence in yourself and keep at it.
Eventually will get my friend (and teammate) to work on Torque and he will do great things, just needs to realize the tool doesn't make your skill, you set your skill, the tool allows you to display the skill.
As you can tell different tools have different limitations... GML and DBPro have quite distinct limitations, Torque is more open and robust, the limits are on you rather than it. Thats whats great about Torque. Once you get used to it you can make a simple game in a couple months, or spend a year making a much more complex game... it has very few limits considerintg you have the source, you want something, research it and add it to the C++.
02/07/2005 (6:41 am)
Games take a lot more effort, time, design, thought, and conceptualization than most of us think at first (me included)... though this can be offset somewhat by getting help. A good team and a good tool is pricelss :)Torque is a good tool
DBPro is an ok tool, a bit limited, has its uses though, can crank games out much quicker.
A friend of mind uses GML (Game Maker Language) and it seems effective for what it can do. He has hit his roof on it though, his ambition and skill surpass it though he seems to think he cannot do more than its simple interface allows. He could do so much more in a powerful took like Torque... Thats my only thing against tools that are very easy to use. I think they're great to learn on, but far too easy for someone to limit themselves. You need to know when to grow out of what you do. Torque can be extremely intimidating... and it should be! It takes a lot of work and time to even begin to understand it, though the best of things take a lot of time. Just have confidence in yourself and keep at it.
Eventually will get my friend (and teammate) to work on Torque and he will do great things, just needs to realize the tool doesn't make your skill, you set your skill, the tool allows you to display the skill.
As you can tell different tools have different limitations... GML and DBPro have quite distinct limitations, Torque is more open and robust, the limits are on you rather than it. Thats whats great about Torque. Once you get used to it you can make a simple game in a couple months, or spend a year making a much more complex game... it has very few limits considerintg you have the source, you want something, research it and add it to the C++.
#6
This is the one thing that puts me off, working with someone on a cross platform engine as a consequence. But for the types of games that torque was initialy designed for in combination with TSE. if you like their way of doing things is very good. I havent seen a single game since tribes that really does much you can't do elsewhere, appart from the excelent networking features which are hard to beat.
02/07/2005 (8:38 am)
I find the biggest torque limitation being the DTS and DIF formats, which don't allow for much creativity in the art path if you don't use GG's predetermined art path. To rewrite the engine to support more generic 3D formats is a huge undertaking as all the seperate engine components are so deeply integrated with one another.This is the one thing that puts me off, working with someone on a cross platform engine as a consequence. But for the types of games that torque was initialy designed for in combination with TSE. if you like their way of doing things is very good. I havent seen a single game since tribes that really does much you can't do elsewhere, appart from the excelent networking features which are hard to beat.
#7
DBPro is good for experimenting with game technology and making demos. Torque is better for building games that people would pay money to play.
02/07/2005 (8:43 am)
You show yourself to be serious about making games, since you're actually spending time researching game engines; Torque must be for you.DBPro is good for experimenting with game technology and making demos. Torque is better for building games that people would pay money to play.
#8
Also, if u are wanting more of a basic programming language, than C, go for Blitz.
If u dont really have a desire to learn BASIC - Try Torque....
02/07/2005 (9:23 am)
Having been a db pro user for some time, i realised quick when i started a serious game idea, that db pro just couldnt hack it. The one thing about db pro i love is its user interface, and ease of use to make the core game functions, but as far as fps goes.. its dire when ur trying to show more than a few objects on screen at once. Even if they are low poly...it just cant handle it. Also, the shader functionability in db pro(if that interests u) is there but hardly works, as it is very buggy, as are a lot of other functions in db pro - but it is a real nice language. Apparantly they are working on updates currently to sort performance out - but i jumped boat as i couldnt wait. I came to torque in Novemeber, and i must admist i am still having a 'longer' easing in process learning the language, and i have now resigned to allowing the learn process as long as it takes, whilst concentrating on the graphical contents of my game, as part of a very small team The thing i love with Torque is the render - it is beautiful - as iis ts ability for lots of objects to be displayed on screen, if u use the Level of detail process.Also, if u are wanting more of a basic programming language, than C, go for Blitz.
If u dont really have a desire to learn BASIC - Try Torque....
#9
I'd agree and disagree...
not very limited when you consider the tools you can use to make this... for DTS... Maya, Max, Truespace/GameSpace, Blender, etc etc... all the major ones that any other high grade engine would use. Major game companies use Max and Maya...
Dif is a bit limited... with just Quark and CShop... but the only limit truly is your imagination and effort...
what would you like added that another major engine has ? seems most of what I see in Torque is truly the equivilant of other major engines... people keep saying the art pipeline is limited, but it seems to me only in a concept... but if you truly compare it to what you can do with any other major engine, like Unreal that costs $$$ it really uses the same major tools
02/07/2005 (10:15 am)
Quote:I find the biggest torque limitation being the DTS and DIF formats
I'd agree and disagree...
not very limited when you consider the tools you can use to make this... for DTS... Maya, Max, Truespace/GameSpace, Blender, etc etc... all the major ones that any other high grade engine would use. Major game companies use Max and Maya...
Dif is a bit limited... with just Quark and CShop... but the only limit truly is your imagination and effort...
what would you like added that another major engine has ? seems most of what I see in Torque is truly the equivilant of other major engines... people keep saying the art pipeline is limited, but it seems to me only in a concept... but if you truly compare it to what you can do with any other major engine, like Unreal that costs $$$ it really uses the same major tools
#10
02/07/2005 (10:17 am)
Been watching you progress Stevie... good to see you stay commited to learning Torque :)
#11
02/07/2005 (10:23 am)
Hay Thanks Matthew!!! - that comment was very much apreciated mate. It will only be a short time now.. before i post some info on the idea i am working on.
#12
by limited I meant exporter features, multiple UV maps, multitexturing, various blendmodes, masking between textures with blendmodes, texture flags, lights, cameras, fog from within your 3D app, Animated UV's, cropping, to name a few.
torque limits artist creativity a lot as the exporter is very dated by modern standards. Allready discussed this in another thread where I explained in some detail the types of tools many modern games engines use today. towards the end of the thread.
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=25714
Torques tools are pretty much tailored towards FPS,TPS and has an artpath easy for Modders to pick up and use. But those tools aren't for everyone, and the way torque handles collisions, occlusion etc isn't required in many types of games. Naturaly its going to be a while before these toold become avaliable as its a lot of work coming up with a suitable format, and then integrating it into an engine built around another mindset.
But thats what you need to compete with the big boys and get the most benefit out of your engine.
For me, Torques biggest asset is it's community, and the fact that they only publish quality products. Indie games need to reach out ang get noticed by the average Joe on the street. The games need to stand out above the huge mountain of crap that makes up 95% of game out there.
I was reading a thread on another forum I participate in, and someone asked why Indie games don't have the following music and films do. In my mind the answer is pretty obvious.
Ideas arent enough to sell a game, innovation only goes so far. Indie games usually don't have the tools and resources required to fill in all the gaps. There are some really good indie games coming out but they are less than 1% of the total number of games released.
I personaly aren't in the slightest bit interested in Casual games, Having worked on several commercial products with a number of developers and seen the best and the worst of gamedev. And also seen how the best can fail whilst the worst thrive simply by picking up safe projects that most developers turn away as not being prestigious enough.
I have a dozen reasons why I'm here and not there making commercial games, and one of the most basic reasons being I love making games, Often making games is more fun than playing other peoples game.
I also think that if a game is fun to make, that comes out in the game itself and the player enjoys the product all the more. To get to the point where games dev is fun, you need the right tools. I'm primarily an artist with limited coding skill, but one of the key issues the determin what engine I use is the art pipeline and how much flexibility it gives me, how much room there is to experiment try out new things. If I'm building and designing a level I don't want to be held back by limited control of my artwork, poor control of lighting and not being able to design and prototype new methods of integrating artwork into an engine in as flexible a manner as possible.
Anyway, I can see Garage games doing all of those things, the fact that GG exists and has come such a long way in the last 3 years is fantastic. THere really aren't many people out there with enough recognition to produce the drive to lift the indie scene out of the doldrums, and get it recognised, and this is one area that I think Garage games can excel and make a difference. I am fairly impressed with the way TSE is coming along, and just hope that some of the issues I have have been considered as it's easier to build an engine with these things in mind, rather than trying to patch things in later using frankenstein methods that were never concieved as being needed earlier on.
Anyway, I sometimes come across as really negative, don't mean to, I'm as passionate as everyone else about this stuff, maybe a bit too much, to the point that it often turns into frustration.
02/09/2005 (10:34 am)
@mathewby limited I meant exporter features, multiple UV maps, multitexturing, various blendmodes, masking between textures with blendmodes, texture flags, lights, cameras, fog from within your 3D app, Animated UV's, cropping, to name a few.
torque limits artist creativity a lot as the exporter is very dated by modern standards. Allready discussed this in another thread where I explained in some detail the types of tools many modern games engines use today. towards the end of the thread.
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=25714
Torques tools are pretty much tailored towards FPS,TPS and has an artpath easy for Modders to pick up and use. But those tools aren't for everyone, and the way torque handles collisions, occlusion etc isn't required in many types of games. Naturaly its going to be a while before these toold become avaliable as its a lot of work coming up with a suitable format, and then integrating it into an engine built around another mindset.
But thats what you need to compete with the big boys and get the most benefit out of your engine.
For me, Torques biggest asset is it's community, and the fact that they only publish quality products. Indie games need to reach out ang get noticed by the average Joe on the street. The games need to stand out above the huge mountain of crap that makes up 95% of game out there.
I was reading a thread on another forum I participate in, and someone asked why Indie games don't have the following music and films do. In my mind the answer is pretty obvious.
Ideas arent enough to sell a game, innovation only goes so far. Indie games usually don't have the tools and resources required to fill in all the gaps. There are some really good indie games coming out but they are less than 1% of the total number of games released.
I personaly aren't in the slightest bit interested in Casual games, Having worked on several commercial products with a number of developers and seen the best and the worst of gamedev. And also seen how the best can fail whilst the worst thrive simply by picking up safe projects that most developers turn away as not being prestigious enough.
I have a dozen reasons why I'm here and not there making commercial games, and one of the most basic reasons being I love making games, Often making games is more fun than playing other peoples game.
I also think that if a game is fun to make, that comes out in the game itself and the player enjoys the product all the more. To get to the point where games dev is fun, you need the right tools. I'm primarily an artist with limited coding skill, but one of the key issues the determin what engine I use is the art pipeline and how much flexibility it gives me, how much room there is to experiment try out new things. If I'm building and designing a level I don't want to be held back by limited control of my artwork, poor control of lighting and not being able to design and prototype new methods of integrating artwork into an engine in as flexible a manner as possible.
Anyway, I can see Garage games doing all of those things, the fact that GG exists and has come such a long way in the last 3 years is fantastic. THere really aren't many people out there with enough recognition to produce the drive to lift the indie scene out of the doldrums, and get it recognised, and this is one area that I think Garage games can excel and make a difference. I am fairly impressed with the way TSE is coming along, and just hope that some of the issues I have have been considered as it's easier to build an engine with these things in mind, rather than trying to patch things in later using frankenstein methods that were never concieved as being needed earlier on.
Anyway, I sometimes come across as really negative, don't mean to, I'm as passionate as everyone else about this stuff, maybe a bit too much, to the point that it often turns into frustration.
#13
I haven't used Torque very long, but I can tell you I've never used anything worse than DarkBASIC Pro.
02/10/2005 (4:34 pm)
DarkBasic Pro really sucks. Don't bother with it. I was banging my head against the ceiling of what the language is capable of so fast, it was sad. Plus the tools that ship with it contain no working debug facility, and it is very hard to debug programs because all of your files are concatenated into one file when you build, and if there is an error, the program spits out a line number that is impossible to use because there is no file associated with it, so you end up guessing which file and which line the error occurred on, if that makes any sense.I haven't used Torque very long, but I can tell you I've never used anything worse than DarkBASIC Pro.
#14
- Brett
02/10/2005 (4:41 pm)
@Adrian: You should speak with Joe Maruschak of BraveTree. He's fairly well versed in the TGE artpath. He might have some things he can do to help ya out. Forgive me if you already have, I don't know you from Adam, so it's just a suggestion. :-)- Brett
#15
There it is right there. Torque has made more games that people pay to play than DBPro as far as I know. Blitz3D is another excellent choice (which has produced some quality products) but it's not an engine. I think out of them all Torque probably produces more titles that allow people to live off of their work.
I have used them all (well DB, Blitz, and Torque). I've made a few games that sold a few copies with Blitz3D (Aerial Antics and Market Value) and I want to create a game with Torque. The only thing that stops me is that I like to have low level access but I don't feel skilled enough to toy with Torques C++ code (it's been 5 years since I've seriously touched C++). Blitz3D and BlitzMax are right in line for me because they provide low level control in a manner that I can utilize very well.
Not to say that stops me from messing with Torque and constantly reading Ken Finney's book ... it doesn't but I haven't done anything serious with it because I feel that personally I can be more productive with other tools.
One day ... one day ...
02/10/2005 (5:21 pm)
Quote:
Torque is better for building games that people would pay money to play.
There it is right there. Torque has made more games that people pay to play than DBPro as far as I know. Blitz3D is another excellent choice (which has produced some quality products) but it's not an engine. I think out of them all Torque probably produces more titles that allow people to live off of their work.
I have used them all (well DB, Blitz, and Torque). I've made a few games that sold a few copies with Blitz3D (Aerial Antics and Market Value) and I want to create a game with Torque. The only thing that stops me is that I like to have low level access but I don't feel skilled enough to toy with Torques C++ code (it's been 5 years since I've seriously touched C++). Blitz3D and BlitzMax are right in line for me because they provide low level control in a manner that I can utilize very well.
Not to say that stops me from messing with Torque and constantly reading Ken Finney's book ... it doesn't but I haven't done anything serious with it because I feel that personally I can be more productive with other tools.
One day ... one day ...
#16
02/11/2005 (10:00 am)
Hmm might have to check out Blitz3D. Really wanted to use Torque but after buying 3 licenses for programmers that wern't able to figure it out and posting months for programming help I might just end up going with something simpler.
#17
One thing that might help is to NOT have your programmers ask for help a lot, and to give them time to figure things out. Torque is a fairly open system; it includes source code, so the answers are all there.
02/11/2005 (11:51 am)
Brice,One thing that might help is to NOT have your programmers ask for help a lot, and to give them time to figure things out. Torque is a fairly open system; it includes source code, so the answers are all there.
#18
http://www.synthetix-interactive.com/wobbles.php
it was released for free as they got a commercial game contract and didn't have the time to market this one properly.
there's a new development environment called gamebench coming out soon that looks like it may be really good. As there isn't even a beta yet I can't say for sure. But the web page suggests it works in a way to what I have been looking for..
02/14/2005 (9:05 am)
Heres a nice shiny new blitz3d game that got released for free this weekend if anyone wants to check it out. It looks relaly nice, is pretty simplistic but far nicer than anything I've seen done in Darkbasic.http://www.synthetix-interactive.com/wobbles.php
it was released for free as they got a commercial game contract and didn't have the time to market this one properly.
there's a new development environment called gamebench coming out soon that looks like it may be really good. As there isn't even a beta yet I can't say for sure. But the web page suggests it works in a way to what I have been looking for..
#19
But, for aserious game development, Torque is a beast hard to beat. Outdoor rendering, for example, is really optimized. You can get an infinite terrain full of buildings and foliage running at a decent framerate on a modest graphics card.
Anyway, learning Torque is WAY harder than learning Blitz3D / DBPro.
05/25/2005 (1:33 am)
I also prefer Blitz3D over DBPro... more stable, sexy sytnax (DBPro syntax sucks, mate) and robust. You can get game prototypes running in no time with Blitz, and even simple games.But, for aserious game development, Torque is a beast hard to beat. Outdoor rendering, for example, is really optimized. You can get an infinite terrain full of buildings and foliage running at a decent framerate on a modest graphics card.
Anyway, learning Torque is WAY harder than learning Blitz3D / DBPro.
Torque 3D Owner Frogger