Do we HAVE to use Quark as the middleman?

#1 Quark is not related to dts files...

Quark is a free tool that can be used with a dif exported with some quirks... the new rewrite of map2dif is said to be geared towards supporting a wide range of programs... one being Game Level Builders, a Max plug in

right now your best bet is CShop or Quark for dif... then use your 3DSMax for dts... just my 2 cents though

#2 You can use Hammer if you want... or use 3DSM and export to a dts.

Look at www.garagegames.com/mg/projects/torque1/artist.php for more info

#3 Only dif is done in QuArK, but you can do those in 3dsMax as well. It will be far simpler to learn QuArK though, as its the supported builder, it has no license issues, and its designed to only build csg interiors. It's really not unorganized, it's just not layed out the same as other builders you may be used to. Give it a chance, and you'll find its features can accomplish twice as much in half the time. An example is texturing; Absolutely no other csg editor has the degree of texture control as QuArK does.

Edit: Don't use Hammer, its license prevents that. GLB for max is awesome, but again, texturing will not be nearly as easy, and its 100x easier to make mistakes in a non-csg editor.

#4 You CAN use other tools, but learning QuArK isn't actually that difficult if you sit down and do it. I found it easier than trying to figure out how to work with CSG exporters grinding a square peg into a round hole. The people who have done work on the exporters have done an excellent job. It's just that the job that they chose to undertake forces a relearning of common tools to uncommon tasks. And that often kills workflow as fast as learnnig a new application.

Here's my take on it. Use Quark for your extremely basic DIF's. Basically, the walls with boring room textures and such. Now, use Matthew Fairfax's map23DS program to convert your map to a 3DS file. Now, load it into Max and create all of your detail models to make the level come alive. This will also make you constantly aware of scale. Now, load the compiled DIF from QuArK into Torque. Load your DTS files and reconstruct the scene.

EDIT:
Oh, and since you're using Max under Windows, you should looking to Cartography Shop. There's a nice exporter for it and it is more intuitive than QuArK. QuArK still has some better texturing features.

#5 So is it impossible to do our texturing in Max? That's what our artists are awesome at. Does it not export correctly?

#6 Once you load your map into max, you can texture the hell out of it. Just make sure to save any textures you create out to 1024x1024, 512x512, 256x256, etc textures rather than UV's. Then load them into QuArK and retexture and compile the DIF. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but it will get the job done. The problem with the concept of CSG versus a polysoup editor is that you can create any type of geometry you want in a polysoup editor, but only convex structural elements in CSG. Different exporters convert your polygons to a block surface and then write the DIF. Depending on how close your polygons were and how complex the shape is, you'll get a wide variety of problems that crop up. If you create a basic shape that can be easily extruded correctly, you'll have better luck. If you create a complex shape with a lot of tight details, you may find that the exporter is creating a lot of unintended geometry.

#7 So is it impossible to do our texturing in Max? That's what our artists are awesome at. Does it not export correctly?

#8 Alternative to QuArk:




- Export directly to Torque's DIF format from Cartography Shop!
- Interface is intuitive, artist-friendly, and very easy to learn!
- Has all your standard map-making features!


"QuArK isn't actually that difficult if you sit down and do it." ...I have tried to do this. It is not an easy tool to learn or use. In fact, I can't use it at all. I have never successfully exported anything from QuArk. If you can scrounge up 60 bucks, save yourself from the aggravation of QuArk and get Cartograhpy Shop!

#9 Hmm. I went through the documentation and didn't have much of a problem. There's definitely a wierdness factor after using Radiant, but most of it was learning a new interface. But Cartography Shop is set up very nicely!

#10 I hated Quark sooo much at first. I was so aggrivated that I had to use it. But really....if you give it some time, it really feels good. I am getting pretty speedy at it now. I love the texturing capabilities as there is no unwrapping required. Give it a chance or try Cartpgraphy shop as everyone suggests.

#11 Gee, I'm a beginner at 3d modelling but I had no problem putting together a simple but ok looking building in Quark in a couple of hours. I'm not quite sure what the problem is.

#12 Well, I cant even export the demo Torque map in QuArk without getting a whole bunch of export errors. I've asked for help but I still couldnt get it to work. Must be some configuration problem, I dunno.

Now take Cartography Shop... you make a box, you click export and it works instantly... isn't that how it's supposed to be?

#13 If you are getting errors in Quark, something is wrong. Sorry I can't specify what. I rarely have errors in Quark during export. I use to, but if you take advantage of tagging and gluing, it solves a lot of problems. There are also basic checks you can run it through. The best thing to do is to not go in to Quark thinking it is a modelling program like Max or something. It makes it easier to learn if you don't.

#14

Quote:So is it impossible to do our texturing in Max?

That depends on what you are making. If you are talking about objects, characters, vehicles, weapons, trees, tables, grass, fluffy bunnies, etc.. then yes, you use Max to create them. You export them directly from Max to the DTS format.

If you are talking about Interiors, buildings with rooms you can walk around in, then you use the tools they are talking about above to create the DIF files.

#15 "isn't that how it's supposed to be?"

Once you address the issues of Quark, then you will se it is as easy as on click.

#16 I realized while reading through this that I came off hard and snooty (as I often do, unintentionally). I didn't mean to sound like "well, I know how easy QuArK is and I'm an idiot, what's that make you?" I thought I'd explain a little how and why I leaned QuArK's interface rather quickly and easily.

It essentially comes down to workflow. Part of my job at the university I work for it to evaluate applications and create documentation for workshops. Over the years, I've learned to adjust my workflow enough to be able to evaluate a number of software packages at once and utilize them effectively so I could teach effective workflow practices. This isn't a muscle that most people need to flex or really want to. I can move between Blender, Maya, and Lightwave for modeling without much retooling of the gears in my head. But if given the choice, I would work in Lightwave because it's more intuitive for me and I have a stronger personal workflow.

Most people don't have the time (or in my case a job) that necessitates learning and adopting an alien workflow, especially not if they are hobbyists or interested in expanding their horizons into indie game development. As a hobbyist, one doesn't want to invest time in something they don't enjoy. That makes a hobby feel more like work. Most model railroaders love painting their trains and creating their scenery as well as running their trains along the tracks. If they didn't enjoy the modeling aspects, I doubt they would have a fascination for watching pre-made sets run the tracks day after day. There's a joy in fiddling and in creation. Just like a mechanic who works a crap job fixing other people's cars during the day (which he hates) and gets to go home at night and tinker endlessly with his own rod (which he loves). The job may be the same, but the intent is completely different between something you have to do and something you want to do. And if you're given a philips screwdriver and a c-clamp as your tools, you'll make due but you probably won't enjoy it as much, regardless.

Use the tools you know or the ones you can learn to utilize effectively and fit your price-point (ie, don't use Radiant unless you have a budget of $5000 for application licensing). CShop is a great tool. I wish it worked on my Tablet PC, but it doesn't. QuArK does and I know how to use it, so I do.

I realized that I came across like "well, I know QuArK and I'm an idiot, so what does that make you?" earlier in the topic and that was not my intention at all. That's just my stupidity when writing at any given moment. Anyone who has seen me post has seen a number of idiot moments like this. I just wanted to let people know that that wasn't my intent.

#17 Thing is a hell of a lot of development studios use their 3D apps as level editing tools, and it is a far more flexible workflow if your engine supports the graphics features you need. Currently TGE doesn't support many of the most basic features you would find a dedicated 3dsmax etc exporter useful for. 1 UV channel and limited blendmodes/multitexturing means that the benefits of using a 3D app are mostly lost. Having BSP and convex hull geometry as the only solution for collisions is great for action games where you want to be able to have pin point accuracy with your collisions, but a lot of games can do with far less accuracy in exchange for far higher polycounts and more engaging graphics.

I'd like to see a generic 3D file format developed that can be used with TSE, supporting 3+ UV channels and more advanced multitexturing. This would open up the engine to suit a lot more tastes, and not restrict people so much to FPS type shooting/action games. And allow for people to create and import their own static lighting solutions from outside of the torque engine using tools like Giles or 3d apps.

Different types of games have different requirements and many aren't well catered for with TGE at the moment, at least not without a lot of compromise.

I do know of at least one person thats considering of trying to aleviate some of these problems within the limitations of the current supported formats though so things might change for the better in comming months.

#18 It would be great to use Max or Lightwave for interiors, but wouldn't you have to spend ~ $3500 on that software license in order to sell your game? I think GG has made it possible to create great games with super low overhead by really supporting software such as Milkshape and Quark. Other engines with more flexibility cost hella lot more as far as I know.

#19 You don't need an expensive engine to have a Great exporter. Just look at blitz3D. The only reason I used that in the past was due to its flexibility and it has the best exporter for 3Dsmax that beats the commercial engine exporters I have used in the past.

It's good enough that it actually removes a lot of extra work from coders hands , and lets artists and designers handle a lot of things independently and with a lot more flexibility than they could manage relying on programmers to fill in the gaps. with the kind of thing I'm talking about you would have maximum flexibility. I'll paste what our currebt exporter does in a mo.

Thing is, if torque would support a generic format, people could build their own exporters to export features like these in my next post.

Most of these features are nt native to the file format, but achieved through name tags and child pivots that have their xyz and rotation parameters translated into variables, like RGB values.

The beauty of this is that almost everything can easily be animated. whether its Brush FX, UV coordinates, light ranges, and Camera FOV, Fog ranges etc.

I'd really love to see something like this in TSE, so that GG can really llive up to its claims, it's a great engine with a lackluster art path that doesn't allow it to achieve what it should be capable of.

I know that a commercial dev has already created a generic file format directly supported from within 3ds max and lightwave, for the TSE engine. And within a period of 3-6 months. Adding the extra functionality the exporter I'm using takes a little more effort, but the technology behind it is pretty simple and it works.

#20 Current 3dsmax Exporter supports


more detailed info below

Custom max material type BRUSH with, 8 layers of multitexturing


Color - Pick the base color
Alpha - Set transparency
Shine - Set shininess

Blend:
Alpha - Use the alpha setting
Multiply - Darken the scene behind
Add - Lighten the scene behind

Flags:
Full Bright - Fully lit
2-Sided - Disable backface culling
Flat Shaded - Flat shaded polys
Disable Fog - Not effected by fog
Vertex Colors - Use vertex colors
Vertex Alpha - Use vertex alpha

Texture Layers:
1-8 - up to 8 texture layers. Click on a layer to add a map (see Maps below).

On/Off - Enable/disable texture layers


MAPS


Bitmap - Pick a texture map.
Reload - Reloads map (e.g. if you've edited the image)
Map Channel - supports 2 UV mapping channels.

Blend:
Alpha - The apha channel in the image will be used when applying the texture.

Multiply - The texture is multiply blended; it will darken the brush color or other textures.

Add - The texture will blend additively; useful for special fx, e.g. laser beams.

Dot3 - Normal mapping (not fully supported in Blitz yet)

Multiply 2 - Multiply 2 blending mode; 128 grey leaves image unaltered, darker colors darken, brighter colors brighten.

Flags:

Color - Color texture
Alpha - Use alpha channel
Masked - Black is transparent
Mipmap - Use mipmapping
Env map - Spherical reflection map
Cube map - Cubic reflection map
Hi-color - Force the use of high color textures (16 bit)
Vidmem - Store texture in vram

Coordinates:
UV Offset - Set the origin of the texture
UV Tiling - Set how many times to tile the texture
UV Clamp - Don't tile; repeats the border pixels instead

Rotation - Rotate UV coordinates around origin
Edit Curves - Edit the UV animation curves

Tools:
View Image - View map using a Max Virtual Frame Buffer

Edit Image ... - Edit map in external image editor (e.g. Photoshop). App path stored in: [3dsmax]\plugcfg\B3dPipeline.ini

Notes:
If you don't use the "Relative Paths" export option, then textures must be placed in the same folder as the b3d file.
Textures should have "power-of-2" dimensions (2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256...)
You can use the second mapping channel for shadow maps, detail textures etc.
Use Tiling to repeat detail textures more frequently without using a second UV channel.


RENDER


Billboard - Billboard forces the object's Y axis to point at the camera.

Normal - Fully face camera (e.g. circular glows)
Vertical - Face camera but remain vertical (e.g. trees)

Auto Fade - Corresponds to Blitz3d's AutoFade() command.

Near - Distance from camera at which to start fading.
Far - Distance from camera at which to completely fade out.

Auto Hide - Hides the object if it is not within the specified distance from the camera.

Near - Nearest distance at which the object is visible.
Far - Farthest distance at which the object is visible.

Occluded by Obscurer - Hides the object if its center is hidden behind an Obscurer.

Link to Cam Pos - Moves the object with the camera (e.g. Skybox).

Link to Cam Rot - Rotates the object with the camera (e.g. UI graphics).

Draw Order - Sets Blitz3d's EntityOrder():


0: normal
greater than 0: draw first (behind everything else)
less than 0: draw last (in front of everything else)