Who wasted there money? :P
by Jimomighty · in Torque Game Engine · 02/01/2005 (5:33 pm) · 120 replies
I bought the torque engine at the beginning, or close too, but haven't really touched it at all after a couple of months of playing with it. I have it still on my old dusty backup CD. Just wondering if anyone else bought torque and left it in the closest. :P
-"Mark all as Read (10202)"
-"Mark all as Read (10202)"
About the author
#102
What friggin' school did he go to?? Because I want to make sure I don't go to that school, or recommend it. Anyone who's anyone knows that you may need to return different values (in different places) from a routine, function, method (or whatever nomenclature you subscribe to).
What a moron! Ok.. because I'm not a jerk, I'm not gonna tear this "so called" software engineer a new a**hole. I'm just going to laugh as Digital Dave moves onto another engine since this one is so poorly contrived.
- Brett
04/24/2005 (1:55 pm)
Quote:
A routine, function, method (whatever nomenclature you subscribe to)
should have ONE exit point.
What friggin' school did he go to?? Because I want to make sure I don't go to that school, or recommend it. Anyone who's anyone knows that you may need to return different values (in different places) from a routine, function, method (or whatever nomenclature you subscribe to).
What a moron! Ok.. because I'm not a jerk, I'm not gonna tear this "so called" software engineer a new a**hole. I'm just going to laugh as Digital Dave moves onto another engine since this one is so poorly contrived.
- Brett
#103
Any good programmer would catch that if/brace bug on inspection. Esp. if your editor properly formatted the indentation. The bug would leap right out. If you use an inferior editor, then of course you should use braces around single statements to defend yourself from lack of code visibility.
There's such a thing as too much documentation. Documenting a simple block copy idiom is almost as bad as documenting what an operator does:
// this statement computes the sum of two things
c = a + b;
This just obscures real documentation that explains why a particular algorithm was chosen. The code should tell you the what and the how. The documentation should tell you the why.
04/24/2005 (2:05 pm)
Single point of exit is a good guideline, but not a panacea. For a small routine, you can see all the exits on screen, and for routines too big to fit on a modern display (say, 50 lines), you've got too much code in one routine.Any good programmer would catch that if/brace bug on inspection. Esp. if your editor properly formatted the indentation. The bug would leap right out. If you use an inferior editor, then of course you should use braces around single statements to defend yourself from lack of code visibility.
There's such a thing as too much documentation. Documenting a simple block copy idiom is almost as bad as documenting what an operator does:
// this statement computes the sum of two things
c = a + b;
This just obscures real documentation that explains why a particular algorithm was chosen. The code should tell you the what and the how. The documentation should tell you the why.
#104
Yeah, the compiler just throws these out. They are so wasted in C/C++. Hrmm, lemme just scour my code and remove these.. Ok, done. Now, let's compile and... oh, crap.
No, wait a second, this can't be right!? What?? The compiler tells me these are needed. Why does your "software engineer" say they aren't?
- Brett
04/24/2005 (2:05 pm)
LMAO... Ohhhh this is just too good...Quote:
3. Proper use of { } braces. These symbols do not add anything to the
code as far as instructions. The compiler sees these as free symbols
used simply to distinguish blocks of logic that should be processed
together. Makes code more readable and maintainable.
Yeah, the compiler just throws these out. They are so wasted in C/C++. Hrmm, lemme just scour my code and remove these.. Ok, done. Now, let's compile and... oh, crap.
No, wait a second, this can't be right!? What?? The compiler tells me these are needed. Why does your "software engineer" say they aren't?
- Brett
#105
That is over commenting, which is just as bad, if not worse, then not commenting at all. If the programmer cannot understand what that simple piece of code does, they have not got enough experience to modify the engine. Comments should be used to clarify tricky areas, not explain simple things that anyone should be able to understand.
That is ludicrous. If you stuck rigidly to that, the code would become atrocious. Sometimes multiple returns are neccessary to keep the code clean, readable and functional.
I assume you are refering to some one line if statements not using braces ? That is a matter of coding style. You should bend to the coding style of the codebase, not the other way round. Arguing about the coding style is completely pointless.
Sure, that could be better. However, there are the CVS change logs (there used to be a web based thing too, not sure if it still works) and the cvs diff command. Figuring out what's changed is usually not hard.
Your attacks on Ben and on Jeff Tunnell were completely unwarranted. Jeff, Ben and indeed the whole GG team do stirling work for the community. They have got a lot going on, and a comparatively small team to spread around the work that needs doing. Yes, there are some issues with Torque, however GG do know what they are and are taking steps to fix them. However, there is only so many hours in the day (and GG work most of them), so not everything can happen at once.
Torque has been shaped over many years by the pressures of shipping games. Some areas are not as clean or nice as they could be, but they work. There is nothing in Torque that stops you shipping a game, and a whole lot that helps you do just that. Many of the bugs that are being found in Torque now only show up when Torque is used ways not thought of before. It is only widespread testing by the community that bugs arise. If someone from the community finds a bug in Torque, then usually they are in the best position to fix it. This is just par for the course with any kind of development, GG cannot possibly test for and find every bug in Torque.
T.
04/24/2005 (2:31 pm)
Quote:1. Deplorable inline documentation of the source...
For example
// The following loop copies arguments from the argument vector into a
table for later use
for (i=0; i < someValue; i++)
{
table[i] = argv[i];
}
That is over commenting, which is just as bad, if not worse, then not commenting at all. If the programmer cannot understand what that simple piece of code does, they have not got enough experience to modify the engine. Comments should be used to clarify tricky areas, not explain simple things that anyone should be able to understand.
Quote:2. Multiple return statements in a method.
That is ludicrous. If you stuck rigidly to that, the code would become atrocious. Sometimes multiple returns are neccessary to keep the code clean, readable and functional.
Quote:3. Proper use of { } braces.
I assume you are refering to some one line if statements not using braces ? That is a matter of coding style. You should bend to the coding style of the codebase, not the other way round. Arguing about the coding style is completely pointless.
Quote:4. Back to documentation. There is nothing short of their word saying
"We fixed it" that can be used legally as a basis for establishing
whether or not a particular fix was made.
Sure, that could be better. However, there are the CVS change logs (there used to be a web based thing too, not sure if it still works) and the cvs diff command. Figuring out what's changed is usually not hard.
Your attacks on Ben and on Jeff Tunnell were completely unwarranted. Jeff, Ben and indeed the whole GG team do stirling work for the community. They have got a lot going on, and a comparatively small team to spread around the work that needs doing. Yes, there are some issues with Torque, however GG do know what they are and are taking steps to fix them. However, there is only so many hours in the day (and GG work most of them), so not everything can happen at once.
Torque has been shaped over many years by the pressures of shipping games. Some areas are not as clean or nice as they could be, but they work. There is nothing in Torque that stops you shipping a game, and a whole lot that helps you do just that. Many of the bugs that are being found in Torque now only show up when Torque is used ways not thought of before. It is only widespread testing by the community that bugs arise. If someone from the community finds a bug in Torque, then usually they are in the best position to fix it. This is just par for the course with any kind of development, GG cannot possibly test for and find every bug in Torque.
T.
#106
We are familiar with most process related to software development, but game development has historically not been a highly disciplined activity, and that shows in our development processes and philosophy. As our tool development moves forward, we will naturally accrete more process. Until then, what you see is what you've got. We certainly do want to put more man hours into Torque maintenance, but we want to stay in business doing it. If you know someone who can wave a magic wand and free us from this capitalist economic system, please let us know. Meanwhile, we have to work on the projects that will keep us in business first, and spend time on fixing non-broken parts of the engine second.
I would ask your software engineer friend if he has ever worked with > 1 million line codebases before. The phenomenon of new features causing bugs is known as a "regression" and is a big issue for any largescale software project. We have pretty extensive documentation in the main parts of the engine and on parts that weren't "inherited" - ie, written during crunch time on projects that had to ship before it was ever conceived that Torque would be a product offered to the world at large. Some parts of the code are wild and scary, but they're gradually getting tamed. Certainly, Torque isn't perfect yet, but I think it's obvious we're making significant progress towards that goal.
04/24/2005 (5:48 pm)
Hi Dave,We are familiar with most process related to software development, but game development has historically not been a highly disciplined activity, and that shows in our development processes and philosophy. As our tool development moves forward, we will naturally accrete more process. Until then, what you see is what you've got. We certainly do want to put more man hours into Torque maintenance, but we want to stay in business doing it. If you know someone who can wave a magic wand and free us from this capitalist economic system, please let us know. Meanwhile, we have to work on the projects that will keep us in business first, and spend time on fixing non-broken parts of the engine second.
I would ask your software engineer friend if he has ever worked with > 1 million line codebases before. The phenomenon of new features causing bugs is known as a "regression" and is a big issue for any largescale software project. We have pretty extensive documentation in the main parts of the engine and on parts that weren't "inherited" - ie, written during crunch time on projects that had to ship before it was ever conceived that Torque would be a product offered to the world at large. Some parts of the code are wild and scary, but they're gradually getting tamed. Certainly, Torque isn't perfect yet, but I think it's obvious we're making significant progress towards that goal.
#107
You also forgot to mention that Torque is not designed to fail in a controlled way in the event of hardware failure, nor does it rigorously verify that the data given to it is entirely valid (although it will deny invalid data entry to the system in the important cases where it might cause harm).
Although I am not working fulltime on a degree, I am still actively pursuing a degree part-time at the University of Oregon. You can read a little bit about the school here. It's been a pleasant match for me - I love Oregon, and like having a university big and succesful enough that I can take classes in almost any subject. I've been studying German the last year, and having a good time while learning a lot about the country and culture. Have you taken any classes lately? My uncle (retired NASA engineer) recently got a cooking degree, and had a lot of fun.
Thank you for bringing up my profile - it's probably about time I update it, given I've been with the company over a year now. I can probably tone down the paragraphs about my internship, though I reviewed the mention of Jeff and don't see it as being that fanboyish. Sure, I respect the guy, but he's not God, and I managed to spell all the words right when I talked about him. :P
I am open to discussing development methodologies, how to implement those methodologies in the real world, and how Torque can be made even better than it is now, but this thread is probably not the place to do it. It's already long, bloated, and pretty off topic by this point. Personally, I wish people would start new threads rather than tack on to this one, since it's getting to be a pain to scroll down to the bottom. Though I certainly do like seeing everyone's opinions (at least when they're presented respectfully).
Anyway, I have work to get back to. I think it's probably time for this thread to die, and new ones to take its place.
04/24/2005 (5:49 pm)
Also, you seem to be confusing game engine development with nuclear plant software development. If Torque crashes, a user may have to reboot their computer, or at worst, restore from a backup (this is very very unlikely, of course - Tribes 2 never had any exploits to do this, and it had at least half a million people pounding on it). If a rocket control system fails in an unplanned way, or a nuclear plant does not fail safe, people die. We could certainly implement a rigorous testing and verification methodology, but we'd probably a) never release another feature upgrade again, since we have such a backlog of code to review, and b) lose all of our current developers, since most of them dislike extremely rigid process. The approach we take to developing on Torque has had a fair amount of thought put into it, even though it's not highly disciplined. We don't have any legal obligations to fix bugs, or to prove that our code will fail safe, and this gives us a fair amount of freedom. Naturally, if a licensee wants to perform a more rigorous verification, they are welcome to - we give them both the source code and the legal right to do this.You also forgot to mention that Torque is not designed to fail in a controlled way in the event of hardware failure, nor does it rigorously verify that the data given to it is entirely valid (although it will deny invalid data entry to the system in the important cases where it might cause harm).
Although I am not working fulltime on a degree, I am still actively pursuing a degree part-time at the University of Oregon. You can read a little bit about the school here. It's been a pleasant match for me - I love Oregon, and like having a university big and succesful enough that I can take classes in almost any subject. I've been studying German the last year, and having a good time while learning a lot about the country and culture. Have you taken any classes lately? My uncle (retired NASA engineer) recently got a cooking degree, and had a lot of fun.
Thank you for bringing up my profile - it's probably about time I update it, given I've been with the company over a year now. I can probably tone down the paragraphs about my internship, though I reviewed the mention of Jeff and don't see it as being that fanboyish. Sure, I respect the guy, but he's not God, and I managed to spell all the words right when I talked about him. :P
I am open to discussing development methodologies, how to implement those methodologies in the real world, and how Torque can be made even better than it is now, but this thread is probably not the place to do it. It's already long, bloated, and pretty off topic by this point. Personally, I wish people would start new threads rather than tack on to this one, since it's getting to be a pain to scroll down to the bottom. Though I certainly do like seeing everyone's opinions (at least when they're presented respectfully).
Anyway, I have work to get back to. I think it's probably time for this thread to die, and new ones to take its place.
#108
You will never receive help, respect, or consideration from me from here on out. You have burned this bridge with your childish and laughable attempts to discredit Garage Games and your moronic personal attacks on their employees. Also consider yourself forewarned that I will ban you on sight if you enter the IRC channel. Do not purchase Constructor. I don't want your money. Please do this community a favor and leave now.
04/25/2005 (12:04 am)
Digital Dave,You will never receive help, respect, or consideration from me from here on out. You have burned this bridge with your childish and laughable attempts to discredit Garage Games and your moronic personal attacks on their employees. Also consider yourself forewarned that I will ban you on sight if you enter the IRC channel. Do not purchase Constructor. I don't want your money. Please do this community a favor and leave now.
#109
I'm pretty sure it did not help me get any of these high paying jobs I have had over the past 20 years...must have been the way I dropped { } from single line IF statements, and the way I used multiple returns from functions when it made the code cleaner. Yeah...that must be it.
I think Digital Dave is just jealous of Ben for having a way cooler job than him.
Understandable really.
04/25/2005 (6:10 am)
Gee my degree is in MUSIC.I'm pretty sure it did not help me get any of these high paying jobs I have had over the past 20 years...must have been the way I dropped { } from single line IF statements, and the way I used multiple returns from functions when it made the code cleaner. Yeah...that must be it.
I think Digital Dave is just jealous of Ben for having a way cooler job than him.
Understandable really.
#110
Sorry for not responding to your post which responded to my post some time back. I hate when people post and run and here I am doing it. Things got busy with my real job.
I'm not quite sure what your saying in your response and how it relates to what I said. I agree with you 100%. Having those skills is a basic requirement for doing any 3D work, not just game related. I never hinted that a person wouldn't need those skills. In fact, I think Torque should be increased in price to help weed out those that don't understand that fact. People with no programming background erroneously interpret professional AAA game engine with easy AAA game engine.
All I said, is that you make it seem like if it's simple for you it should be simple for anyone. Perhaps it's just one of those moments where it's not what you said but how you said it.
Were all learning here. Now if only I can learn how to do this full time AND feed my family. :)
04/25/2005 (6:22 am)
Ben,Sorry for not responding to your post which responded to my post some time back. I hate when people post and run and here I am doing it. Things got busy with my real job.
I'm not quite sure what your saying in your response and how it relates to what I said. I agree with you 100%. Having those skills is a basic requirement for doing any 3D work, not just game related. I never hinted that a person wouldn't need those skills. In fact, I think Torque should be increased in price to help weed out those that don't understand that fact. People with no programming background erroneously interpret professional AAA game engine with easy AAA game engine.
All I said, is that you make it seem like if it's simple for you it should be simple for anyone. Perhaps it's just one of those moments where it's not what you said but how you said it.
Were all learning here. Now if only I can learn how to do this full time AND feed my family. :)
#111
I hope you don't mean what you wrote and that you are just writing out of anger. Am I to understand from your post that garage games will only support paying customers who kiss your butt? Should I also take from your reply that paying customers who vent some frustration will be dropped from one of the supplied support channels? I truly hope that your statement is not reflective of Garage Games policies.
Customers should be allowed to vent frustration and opinions without fear of retribution. If you disagree then politely defend yourself and get on with it. If it hurts and its true then take from it what you can and move on.
04/25/2005 (6:38 am)
Mathew,I hope you don't mean what you wrote and that you are just writing out of anger. Am I to understand from your post that garage games will only support paying customers who kiss your butt? Should I also take from your reply that paying customers who vent some frustration will be dropped from one of the supplied support channels? I truly hope that your statement is not reflective of Garage Games policies.
Customers should be allowed to vent frustration and opinions without fear of retribution. If you disagree then politely defend yourself and get on with it. If it hurts and its true then take from it what you can and move on.
#112
Matthew is not a GG employee. He volunteers what time he spends here helping people. Same with me and all the Associates.
As far as I know in the four (or is it five?) plus years Matthew has been hanging around these forums and helping people, Digital Dave is the first person he has "cut off".
Dave is free to have silly opinions (such as the notion that a C.S. degree from a university has more value for a prospective future employer than a job in the industry heading up development on a game engine). He is not free to repeatedly insult people and make ludicrous accusations against repsected members of this community and expect to continue to get FREE support from non employees.
I hope this makes the situation more clear.
04/25/2005 (6:59 am)
Joe,Matthew is not a GG employee. He volunteers what time he spends here helping people. Same with me and all the Associates.
As far as I know in the four (or is it five?) plus years Matthew has been hanging around these forums and helping people, Digital Dave is the first person he has "cut off".
Dave is free to have silly opinions (such as the notion that a C.S. degree from a university has more value for a prospective future employer than a job in the industry heading up development on a game engine). He is not free to repeatedly insult people and make ludicrous accusations against repsected members of this community and expect to continue to get FREE support from non employees.
I hope this makes the situation more clear.
#113
The EULA for Torque clearly states that there is no support whatsoever. Therefore, GarageGames dont actually have to provide any support whatsoever. Also, the IRC channel is provided by MaxGaming and is staffed by experienced people like Paul and Matt who have volunteered their time solely because they like helping people. Nobody is entitled to that help, yet it is freely given. It's perfectly reasonable that anyone not wish to spend his/her time helping others for any reason whatsoever, even if that reason is stupid like "he has funny shaped ears."
T.
04/25/2005 (7:07 am)
I would just like to add something to what Paul said ...The EULA for Torque clearly states that there is no support whatsoever. Therefore, GarageGames dont actually have to provide any support whatsoever. Also, the IRC channel is provided by MaxGaming and is staffed by experienced people like Paul and Matt who have volunteered their time solely because they like helping people. Nobody is entitled to that help, yet it is freely given. It's perfectly reasonable that anyone not wish to spend his/her time helping others for any reason whatsoever, even if that reason is stupid like "he has funny shaped ears."
T.
#114
Since he was developing the new Map2Dif which is so core to the engine I thought he was more directly tied to GG than other associates. My misunderstanding and thanks for clearing it up.
Edit- I was under the impression that IRC was maintained by GG.
Thanks for clearing that up guys. I still think people should be able to vent opinions without fear of retribution. If the vent is unwarranted that defending yourself is all that needs to be done.
Unless of course the person just blatantly lies and flames then other steps would need to be taken. Slanderous statements should be dealt with. But I think that goes without saying.
04/25/2005 (7:08 am)
Paul,Since he was developing the new Map2Dif which is so core to the engine I thought he was more directly tied to GG than other associates. My misunderstanding and thanks for clearing it up.
Edit- I was under the impression that IRC was maintained by GG.
Thanks for clearing that up guys. I still think people should be able to vent opinions without fear of retribution. If the vent is unwarranted that defending yourself is all that needs to be done.
Unless of course the person just blatantly lies and flames then other steps would need to be taken. Slanderous statements should be dealt with. But I think that goes without saying.
#115
Many times, Matt has done just that. He drops everything to aid a fellow game developer. Even when I didn't know Matt well, he stopped to give me assistance with collision. That's what got me noticed by Bravetree and is why dRacer is where it is today. It all really hinged on something gracious that Matt did for me. He didn't have to.
And he sure as hell can choose who he helps and who he doesn't. In this instance, he chose to let Dave know that he isn't insterested in helping him anymore. And he said why... Leave it at that.
- Brett
04/25/2005 (7:22 am)
But Joe, the thing is that Dave is free to vent, so why should Matt not be free to ignore him? People bounce around in these forums and in IRC and expect that they'll just get help when they snap their fingers. Most don't understand that people are working on their own projects and if they do, they expect that the elders within this group will just drop everything for them.Many times, Matt has done just that. He drops everything to aid a fellow game developer. Even when I didn't know Matt well, he stopped to give me assistance with collision. That's what got me noticed by Bravetree and is why dRacer is where it is today. It all really hinged on something gracious that Matt did for me. He didn't have to.
And he sure as hell can choose who he helps and who he doesn't. In this instance, he chose to let Dave know that he isn't insterested in helping him anymore. And he said why... Leave it at that.
- Brett
#116
I'm not challenging Matt's integrity or whether he's a nice guy. I'm sure he's a wonderful person. You bring up a good point in that he should be allowed to not help anyone and I wouldn't be so bold as to suggest otherwise. If my post came off that way, then let me clarify that I agree. He has the right to support who he wants to support.
I just thought he was affiliated with garage games because he mentioned Constructor which I thought Ben, a GG employee, was working on. As stated, thanks for clearing up that he's not.
Perhaps you missed my edit. I wanted to clarify that if people are slanderous and flame bating then they should be dealt with.
Just for the record I disagree with much of what Digital Dave stated, especially Ben's person choice of how he deals with his career path. If he's doing a good job thats all that matters. I thought Ben did a great job of defending himself.
04/25/2005 (7:40 am)
Brett,I'm not challenging Matt's integrity or whether he's a nice guy. I'm sure he's a wonderful person. You bring up a good point in that he should be allowed to not help anyone and I wouldn't be so bold as to suggest otherwise. If my post came off that way, then let me clarify that I agree. He has the right to support who he wants to support.
I just thought he was affiliated with garage games because he mentioned Constructor which I thought Ben, a GG employee, was working on. As stated, thanks for clearing up that he's not.
Perhaps you missed my edit. I wanted to clarify that if people are slanderous and flame bating then they should be dealt with.
Just for the record I disagree with much of what Digital Dave stated, especially Ben's person choice of how he deals with his career path. If he's doing a good job thats all that matters. I thought Ben did a great job of defending himself.
#117
First off, the Torque community at large would like to present an open invitation to our good friend Digital Dave. This grants the bearer unrestricted access to our balls. Please feel free to suck on them any time you'd like.
I'd encourage you, and your company to persue other options besides Torque. Please make sure that your certified software engineer approves their source code. I hear that the Unreal Engine has a full set of use-cases along with their UML diagraming of the engine. The engine also relies on well-documented pre and post conditions for each and every function. If your game has any bugs in it what so ever, you can run the included unit-test suite which will find the bugs for you. They won't show you this information or even say it exists until you licence the engine though.
Welcome to gamedev, shithead. If you want software engineering, go back to college and be a professor. Then you can fail Ben while he tries to finish his degree, and you will have your revenge for being so wronged.
04/25/2005 (3:05 pm)
Wow. What a great thread.First off, the Torque community at large would like to present an open invitation to our good friend Digital Dave. This grants the bearer unrestricted access to our balls. Please feel free to suck on them any time you'd like.
I'd encourage you, and your company to persue other options besides Torque. Please make sure that your certified software engineer approves their source code. I hear that the Unreal Engine has a full set of use-cases along with their UML diagraming of the engine. The engine also relies on well-documented pre and post conditions for each and every function. If your game has any bugs in it what so ever, you can run the included unit-test suite which will find the bugs for you. They won't show you this information or even say it exists until you licence the engine though.
Welcome to gamedev, shithead. If you want software engineering, go back to college and be a professor. Then you can fail Ben while he tries to finish his degree, and you will have your revenge for being so wronged.
#118
I consider TGE a tool for fun and challenge. Much the same as I consider my golf clubs. However, I seem to be better with TGE than I am with my driver.
I find the GG community to be very refreshing and accommodating. I've also been able to lure a few talented individuals toward buying the TGE. (I don't think they've taken the plunge yet... but they will... they will >:)
One day I hope to make it out to Oregon for the GG game developer conference. I look forward to meeting some of the talent that drives this community.... like Ben G, Phil, Jeff and Rick, Melv, ...and MANY more.
Heck, even T2D has given me some ideas for commercial projects that can benefit kids and adults with Autism. (and other developmental disabilities). I think games could be a GREAT tool for evaluating and assisting in the treatment of disabilities. (Obviously this is where my Delphi skills are currently being used).
Anyway, that's my take on Torque. Thank you GG for providing me a creative outlet and a tool to learn.
Tim
04/26/2005 (6:42 am)
For me, TGE is a hobby. Nothing more. I don't ever intend on selling anything I create. I'm a long time Delphi programmer that wanted to learn a bit more C++. Torque has given me hours of fun even though I have not produced anything viable for the public.I consider TGE a tool for fun and challenge. Much the same as I consider my golf clubs. However, I seem to be better with TGE than I am with my driver.
I find the GG community to be very refreshing and accommodating. I've also been able to lure a few talented individuals toward buying the TGE. (I don't think they've taken the plunge yet... but they will... they will >:)
One day I hope to make it out to Oregon for the GG game developer conference. I look forward to meeting some of the talent that drives this community.... like Ben G, Phil, Jeff and Rick, Melv, ...and MANY more.
Heck, even T2D has given me some ideas for commercial projects that can benefit kids and adults with Autism. (and other developmental disabilities). I think games could be a GREAT tool for evaluating and assisting in the treatment of disabilities. (Obviously this is where my Delphi skills are currently being used).
Anyway, that's my take on Torque. Thank you GG for providing me a creative outlet and a tool to learn.
Tim
#119
Asking HERE for people who think their money spent on Torque was a waste isn't going to get you very far. People who shelled out the money and stuck around are (almost by definition) getting their money's worth.
Where to find the disgruntled folks? Not sure you could... If you had a list of people who bought torque and could find those with little or no forum activity, that'd be a good start. But why would you want to?
I think, Jimothy, you'll find that the people here will be happy to help you get the most out of your Torque investment.
If, on the other hand, the reason you haven't gotten your money's worth is simply because you're spending your spare time elsewhere (as I do, having only recently come back to Torque), then the problem doesn't really lay with Torque, does it?
04/28/2005 (12:10 pm)
My take on this request:Asking HERE for people who think their money spent on Torque was a waste isn't going to get you very far. People who shelled out the money and stuck around are (almost by definition) getting their money's worth.
Where to find the disgruntled folks? Not sure you could... If you had a list of people who bought torque and could find those with little or no forum activity, that'd be a good start. But why would you want to?
I think, Jimothy, you'll find that the people here will be happy to help you get the most out of your Torque investment.
If, on the other hand, the reason you haven't gotten your money's worth is simply because you're spending your spare time elsewhere (as I do, having only recently come back to Torque), then the problem doesn't really lay with Torque, does it?
#120
TGE4EVR
- Ronixus
04/29/2005 (7:44 pm)
I stuck around here on GG for the past 4 years without Torque, if that tells you how much it's worth! ;)TGE4EVR
- Ronixus
Torque Owner Brett Fattori
I began development with Delphi as my background, a little C/C++ (not much) and a desire to learn. Yeah, things are complex in this engine. I already had it out if you can call it that over someone's opinion that Blitz3D is sooooo much better. But my point isn't about the differences between TGE and Blitz, it's in people's desire to learn something.
I did just that.. check my profile. You'll see that I've added far more than you have when it comes to productive posts, resources, and so forth. Yeah, it took me a while but it's been worth it. But then again, I'm not someone who needs instant gratification.
In fact, I know someone who's always spouting game ideas. Everytime I see him he's got a new one. He's got concept art and written out plans, but he's not a programmer. So, in his case I don't recommend the TGE. Why? Because it's just not for him. He'd give up in a week... hell, prolly a couple days. My point is that people who come to GG and see an engine for sale have no idea what an engine really is. They think that it'll make games for them, but to date, no one has made a "make my game" button except maybe those very restrictive systems like Blitz and RealmCrafter.
There are those who do, and those who don't... And the one's who don't are usually bitching at the ones who do.
- Brett