Who wasted there money? :P

#41 I bought torque last April. I recognised the value, but lost interest after a week or two and it has been lying dormant. Until one day,we had a project, and Torque seemed to fit the bill. So wham, bam, thank you ma'am, we got to grips with it, and churned out our project.

I've had access to an evaluation version of Gamebryo (the engine behind DAOC and a few other games). It had a few tools, which we never could quite figure out how to work. So we let that be.

I've also used Virtools before. Virtools is a very easy to learn game engine. So much so, that you can make the game simply by piecing together flow chart components. There was also a high level scripting language to customise features that weren't catered for. The idea was a good one, but implementation was poor. The networking was shoddy, and animation synchronisation was a pain. While the flow chart structure was good for learning, I couldn't help but feel that I could work 10 times faster if I could just write the code instead of drag-dropping boxes. Worst of all was that there was no direct way of producing an exe from the IDE.

Torque was a breath of fresh air. Armed with the source code, I felt I had the power to do what I will. It wasn't as easy to learn as Virtools, but it wasn't really hard to pick up either, given the plethorea of resources, forum threads and helpful community members.

Sadly, it's taken a back seat again, as J2ME projects are becoming the norm. But I know it's there if I need it, and is something I'd want to pursue on my own should time eventually permit.

#42 Waste of 100 bucks?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Not.

I've gotten vastly more than my $100 worth just in technical support as far as I'm concerned.

#43 A couple of days ago, I decided that I needed to learn how to program again (not that I ever really knew how-- I used Applesoft BASIC waaay back in the day). There will be a complete .plan on this coming up soon, but here is a quick preview.

I decided that I wanted to start at the very bottom and work up. Along the way I will post my progress and write tutorials so that the most N00b of the n00bs will be able to follow in my footsteps. I decide to make a card game. I currently have a deck shuffling and displaying in the console. From there, I will make it run in the GUI, then move into 3D. My methods and algorithms are very brute force, but along the way I want to learn about object oriented programming, so I will be rewriting most of what I do.

My rules are that I cannot rely on any internal help with how to use Torque, nor can I "cheat" and use Ken Finney's book. I must say, that I am surprised by just how good our documentation is. I realize that it does not teach you how to program, but that is one of the reasons that I am embarking on this project.

NOTE: I will allow myself to ask the guys about algorithms at the highest level because that is not Torque specific.

Before starting the project I took a quick look at Python and also Chipmonk BASIC. TorqueScript is already easier than either one. I don't want to start a flame war here... please wait for my entire .plan so I can set out my reasons.

Lastly.... this is the most fun I have had in a LONG time.

-Jeff Tunnell GG

#44 At first it was WOW! This is what i get for $100. Looks awesome, incredible... everyone in the team was excited. Upon closer inspection we found that it was missing alot of stuff that we would love to have. Like nicer water, more detailed terrain textures (for paths or roads), more flexibility in the lighting. We then bought the Lighting pack. And again it was WOW! Certainly made a difference and was alot closer to what we needed.

Then we tried to setup the development and art pipeline, CVS and VC++ and Photoshop where no-brainers and we already had licensed them. But DTS and DIF prooved to be rather difficult and it took us about a month to decide and get the right software to have a solid setup. So after alot of testing we where ready to create art and do some C++ enhancements. This is where the 'Where the F* is the Documentation' Phase kicked in. Sure there is some Docs and the Forum and Resources are nice, but its alot of work and has to be pieced together. That was frustrating and took another month and everyone was getting really pissed cause we did not move forward at all. Eventually we stopped bothering and took some time off as it was getting too much to learn all at once. After about a month, everyone was back and ready to kick it off again. We are definately making progress and i seem to slowly get to grips with the engine and how it's internals work, but there is a long road ahead. It's still frustrating sometimes, but rewarding aswell if you pull it off and learn something.

To make a long story short, YES it is frustrating and a hard road to travel. But it's worth the time and certainly money well spent.

@Tom, it is confusing and frustrating to work with the script. Only if you are somewhat familiar with C/C++ you can use it cause you always have to go hunting in the source for those CON REGISTER calls to actually see what gets exposed to the console. Certainly not useable for artists if you ask me. But very powerfull and fast :)

Sascha

#45 @ Jeff that sound really cool. I look forward to your plan. It should be interesting to see if you hit any snags.

#46 TBE and the overall Torque documentation are great for a quasi-n00b such as myself. By this I mean that I have actually been working with Torque, on a level-design and modeling side, since about 2002, however it wasn't until 2004 that I got into TorqueScripting and C++ programming, and then finally purchased TGE to get into the engine programming.

So, to spend $100 and just toss it in the closet, I guess that would kinda surprise me. Maybe waaay back when, near the beginning, when documentation was about as scarce as a Capcom game without a sequel, but these days I've found the GarageGames community to be willing to help even the idiot-quasi-n00bz such as myself (and I do thank all of you for that!). TBE, again, is awesome, since it means I don't have to deal with the bloated Microsoft versions, support for it is free, and overall I'm just much happier with it. (Even for things I'm not a n00b for, I still like the automation!) ;)

@Jeff Tunnel: Awesome to hear there are more n00b initiatives this year like TBE... I'll be the first to try 'em all out!!! ;)


-Dave C.
21-6 Productions


Edit: Spelling.

#47 Jeff,

Let me attempt to add one more rule to your idea. You have to work at night after your 9-5 job. It's one thing to do this during your real job, it's another to do this after the long haul of the grind and at 3 hours at a time. The hard part is that by the time you get an answer to a problem or find what your looking for you can be almost halfway through your allotted time at night. Working at night on things like this doesn't allow you to get into a groove and that is what I find most difficult about working at nights.

I can't hope to sit down till have the kids are down and I talk to my wife about the days activities. We are a tight family and it's hard to maintain the balance of family life and indie life. So if your going to do this like we do this, then I suggest you do the same. Then and only then can you truly evaluate the quality of the documentation. Having it exist is one thing, finding it easily is another.

And I wouldn't ask the guys in the office about algorithms either. I don't think most of us have that luxury. Ask on the forums and wait for responses.

By the way, I thought you and the other guy were the original authors of Torque.

Joe

#48 Actually, I did a bunch of the work after "work". Basically, I work on GG all the time.

#49 Aw, isn't that cute...Joe thinks we go home at GarageGames.

For the most part, the only time we are "home" is when we're asleep or too drunk to think.

#50 Torque represents the efforts of the best and brightest at Dynamix, some of whom are still involved at GG. (I feel confident saying that the people we have here represent the brain trust of Torque knowledge and expertise. :) Many people contributed at Dynamix, many people have since contributed... Torque is an effort of love and necessity from dozens of very talented coders.

#51 I do like your approach there Jeff.

I must say that it has suprised me how there are very few, simple games here on GG. The scripting language and the GUI system are one of the most easiest things to learn. Forget the 3D stuff. It's where I started and it gives you a great foothold with the scripts. My first experience with the server was using RPC and getting one machine to change the background GUI of the other.

I see noobs on GG trying to get really complex things going and I wonder if they are just running before they can walk. These people could become fantastic game developers but it seems that there's this impatience to get a fully-blown, bells and whistles, production quality game out there. I wonder why this is? You can't blame the engine or the documentation for this.

Perhaps it's a more modern attitude that you can simply achieve these golden games quickly and easily. Maybe people are too proud to accept that they *need* to do checkers, solitare, frogger, space-invaders first before they can do Half-Life 2.

Maybe the lure of software-tech is too much, especially with the emphasis on fast, quality rendering these days. The basis of games e.g. fun is lots amongst it. If so, then I'm probably guilty for inventing a little of that tech.

I guess this ramble is a little off-track but I've always wondered why we don't see lots of parlour games on this site.

- Melv.

#52 To drunk to think? Well that explains the documentation and light leaks in map2dif. ha ha ha ha. Sorry I couldn't resist just kidding. Actually the source of my humor is that I'm documenting my application now and I just hate doing it. I'm terrible at it.

I thought the original torque was from Jeff Tunnel and Jay Moore. I know it's developed by all you guys now, I just meant the original version. I didn't realize that others were from Dynamix.

At the risk of attempting to hijack this thread and now that I have the attention of Garage Games can you look at my thread on DTS performance issues? I can't see what I'm missing and I'm sure it's something dumb.

#53 Well, for me, I had spend about 3 years with various free game engines. I tried irrlicht for a few months, 3D Game Studio for a while, Blender's built in game engine for too long, and crystal space for about a year. I then started wondering why I could not get a game engine that was mature enought to, well, make a game with. I started to look at some engines around the $50 mark, but then I came across Torque. I read all I could about it, the good and the bad, and I simply could not help myself and bought it. At first, the engine seemed very overwhelming, until I started to work with what I knew how to do, and made a few simple games. I then started coming across little snags like "hmmm.... I wish I could swim in this water..." sure enough, I searched for about 5 minutes on the forums, and fixed my problem.

I use torque EVERY DAY, and that is no lie. I sit here a good 3 hours minimum a day and add another feature to my ever-growing project. I usually have absolutely no problem finding help if I encounter an issue (except my horrible texturing and modelling skills, which can't be helped :) ) and the community is all very friendly and nice. I have absolutely NO regrets buying this engine. Best software purchase I have made.

-Justin

#54 Hey Jeff,

That's a really cool idea. You know what I'm going to say, right ? I'll give you a clue: it involves GID >:)

Seriously though, I wish you all the luck in the world. Of course, I don't think you'll need it. Torque in any guise is a perfect re-introduction to programming and I think you'll come to discover that you know more then you realise from seeing all the answers to questions over the years. It's always funny in the IRC channel when artists know the answer to programming questions (and vice versa) simply because they've seen it over and over.

Tom.

#55 I wouldnt say i 'wasted' my money, but i bought torque over 2 years ago and havent even touched the engine coding part of it, only scripting.

so technically, i could have just done a mod to the demo and got the same results for free.

however, i have the ability to change the code if i want, the ability to release something as a product (when its done), and also the knowledge that by paying up I have in some small way given these guys some reward for their efforts. :)

#56 Well, we're not indie developers here, but our company that is just starting found Torque to be a blessing.

We are short on people right now, and I'm the only programmer. I had zero C++ experience before Torque, and our previous project was a game made with Macromedia Director (in 3D). The game shipped just fine, but we had tons of trouble, since it was our first project and we are only 4.

After carefully studying several different engines/development suites, we found Torque to be the most suitable given our situation (after a month playing with the demo). It was basically a working game we could mess with and modify to every bit (ok, maybe not *that* much), and we went into a new project using it.

Right now it has been fantastic. The new game is becoming exactly how we planned it, and all features we planned in our docs are making their way into it, by using resources and doing our own modifications.

Mind you, this is *not* a deathmatch multiplayer FPS game, but a single player 3rd person adventure game for kids/teens with a few simple management elements, so there are a ton of changes to do.

I can also tell, TGE has been giving me the best C++ lessons I could ever have, my previous programming experience being years of Director and Flash development. While The lack of sheer documentation does get in the way sometimes, but I found that the best way to get something done in TGE is to search around it's own source and look for something that might be doing something similar, and see how it's done. Checking the call stack to track down how things are flowing inside TGE's massive source is also a quick way to learn how it works.

I'm proud of finally understanding most of the gameplay mechanics, and be able to adjust the player class internals to fit my needs without major problems. Still a long way from sticking a custom player class into it, but that'll happen eeventually.


Now, I'm saying this from a developer perspective. I work with TGE, 8 hours a day, seven days a week. I am unclear if I would've learned this much from it if I were doing it on my spare time, without well-definied goals do reach and deadlines on my neck.

#57 Torque is easily the best $100 investment I've ever made when it comes to software - and I had a very bumpy start (eh Jeff?! =P)

The thing is, Torque is the real deal, a full blown, professional grade 'AAA' quality engine with all of the flexibility you'd expect from such a robust and full featured engine!

Having said that, it's also not for the faint of heart. If you want to develop in Torque, be prepared to make a commitment.

There are less complicated engines to be had, but with that comes less flexibility and less extensibility.

I'd wager that if the source code to many of the similarly priced competitor engines were released, we'd see many of the same complaints within those communities as well.

When you bought Torque, you bought a professional grade engine - be careful what you wish for. ;-)

#58 "When you bought tTorque, you bought a professional grade engine - be careful what you wish for. ;-)
"
Well put

#59

Quote:When you bought Torque, you bought a professional grade engine - be careful what you wish for.

I believe you've just summed-up this whole thread. Great expression. Those words paint a thousand pictures. :)

- Melv.

#60 I picked up TGE in 2001. Very hard learning curve for me then. I didn't do much with it for a couple of years. After trying a huge number of other engines out there (for $$ and free), I've learned that Torque is the best game engine I have in my possesion.

It's tough to get started with, but I think that's because it's so powerful and versatile. Taking it one step at a time may seem slow, but it will get you where to need to go.

With the resources available today, working with TGE isn't that bad. The community here is one of the things that makes working with TGE much nicer than other engines out there.

Plus, I finally upgrade my video card, so now I need to get TSE and see what we can really do with this thing.

I have a handful of started but not close to finished TGE projects. Time to get cracking and really do something now. Over the past few years I've watched this grow from something I dreaded learning to use into something I can't wait to work with.