Alternative to QuArk

#1 Glad you got a forum up here, CShop seems to be very intuitive

#2 Cool! I'll be watching if anyone has questions or issues. I'm pulling together the final touches for the beta 2 version today.

#3 What're the odds of a linux port of Cartography Shop?

Thanks,
Gary (-;

#4 1 Question I have is why isn't the demo version 4.1 instead of 4.0?

Since the carve and hollow options are not in until 4.1. I was hoping to play around before I considered buying.

#5 @Gary

I'd say none. As Josh (the author) has said on the CartShop forums:

"it isn't economically worthwhile, I have no way to test it, and there is no demand for it."

You might want to try asking again now that Torque is in the mix. The CartShop forums.

#6 @Michael

Not for sure why the demo is the 4.0 version. Probably didn't feel it was worth the time to change it.

Honestly the carve function can be tricky. It works in very simple cases, but if things get even a little complex it freaks out. I've had it not generate geometry at all or generate non-convex after a carve. Sometimes i can move a brush a bit or reverse how i'm doing a carve and things will work.... other times it doesn't work at all. It's one thing i plan on hammering Josh on for CartShop5.

So far hollow seems to work 100% of the time for me, but i've only used it a couple of times.

#7 Thanks for the info Tom. I'll be considering buying this in time for my birthday in March :)

#8 I cannot seem to find what Cartography Shop supports as imports. I have googled and searched their site. The demo just shows their is a ghosted option for import. All I know is .X is supported for import.


Thanks,
Coz

#9 They support .X and .3DS via their prefab creator. Still those can create non-convex geometry, so don't expect our exporter, Torque Pipeline for Cartography Shop (i know i'm shameless), to export it properly in all cases.

#10 @Michael and for anyone curious about the carve and hollow functions:

To carve, simply make two overlapping shapes, click on the shape that will be the "carver" and then click the Carve button. Above you can see the box primitive carved many times in different ways.

Here is the exported result in TGE. It looks just as is does when you export from CS.

The tricky thing about carve is CS will try to maintain convex shapes and generally follow the rules of proper interior geometry, so if your arrangement doesn't follow those rules it will get garbled.

Here we see the result of the hollow function. To use this, make a box, for example, select it and click the Hollow button and, instantly, you have a room (well, after you ungroup it and delete the front wall).

The result in TGE.

Re Importing, I haven't tried importing anything into CS. It's more fun to make things right in CS, IMO. :)

#11 Wow. Great examples Will!

#12 Very cool. I messed around with the demo and it just feels more natural than Quark. Thanks for the examples Will.

#13 @will: nice example! @tom: nice work ;-).

I did an .obj importer for CShop some time ago, I guess I have to test ist with Tom's exporter (with apporpriate geometry, of course).

#14 @Dirk - I'm sure it works as long as the user only creates good convex geometry.

On a related note... depending on our internal needs for our project and Josh's release of the CartShop5 beta i may be working DTS instance support into the DIF exporter for CartShop4. It would work like this:

1 - Convert your DTS shape from Maya, Max, Milkshape, whatever into a CSM which contains one object/group tagged with a special classname and properties.

2 - This CSM can be put into CartShop prefab folder and then added into the scene.

3 - On export the DIF exporter will find all these "mesh" tagged objects/groups, match ones that are the same, then export each one individually as a static DTS shape. It will then add an array of DTS instance information (the name, position, rotation, scale, etc) to the DIF.

I plan on syncing up with the GGs folks on the right way to put DTS instance info into the DIF which can then be merged into TSE HEAD (and maybe TGE too). This would be the next step towards making Torque more UnrealEd like in it's interior creation and should really boost artist productivity.

#15 Sounds like that's the best way to go (re DTS instancing).

I have a question though. How will this affect shadow mapping? When I see a DTS tree in the demo, it has no shadows. Would there be a way to make it so the shadows are enabled on these DTS instances? For small objects it wouldnt really matter, but for larger objects like furniture or trees, etc. it would look odd to not have any shadows cast onto the interior.

Also, how will the DTSes handle collision? If the exporter treats them as DTSes then isnt all the collision information thrown out? I'm guessing you would have to create a collision mesh around the actual shape using the collision_brush. Not that this would be a problem, just curious as to how that would work.

#16 Will, shadows, if I'm not mistaken, can be enabled with a simple flag, and I think it's in TSShape in one of the datablocks (I'll have to check when I go home later). As for collision, you'll probably either want to set up collision boxes in your modeler, or use dif collision. Either way, this is possible in stock torque and QuArK (I've been messing around with this, since I've been used to building in the later Unreal engines).

#17 @Will - I haven't thought that far thru it yet, but yes the light mapping process would have to at least use DTS instances as light occluders.

I didn't really think about collision. I guess we would have to have specially tagged brushes in the mesh prefabs which will be used as the collision.

Really trying to get DTS instances to work in CartShop4 would be a hack. I isn't really setup for it, but thru some creative workaround it could be done. I want to avoid it, but that depends on the timeline for CartShop5.

Regardless i'm focusing on making CartShop the center of the pipeline. All the source art is kept in a CartShop friendly format and only converted for use in Torque on export.

#18 How about this possibility:

The artist can use a "proxy" mesh that will reference the DTS filename (thus eliminating the need to convert the original DTS into a CSM prefab).

This mesh would be a low-poly version of the actual DTS model and would serve as a collision hull.

Also, if the lighting could be enabled on this shape (afterall, it's part of the DIF so it should work) then you would have proper lighting/shadows too.


So ideally, this is how it would work:

1. You open your model in Maya, Max, Milkshape, or whatever, and then you make a low-poly version of it (a convex collision mesh). (Or just make it in CS if you want)

2. You import this proxy model into CS and set the properties so that it references the actual DTS file.

3. Then you set the texture to "collision_brush" or "null" so it doesnt render in-game.

4. Now copy/paste this model where ever you want it throughout your interior, rotating it, scaling it, etc.


Now if this shape can be set so that, although the surface is null/collision_brush, it will still shadowmap then that could solve the shadow mapping problem too.


EDIT --

@ Tek, about the lighting, as far as I know, if you enable the lighting on a DTS shape it will be a bit of a performance hit... that's why they're not on in the demo...

Quote:you would not want to turn on the dynamic shadows for static DTS shapes. It is a huge peformance hit. It can be done. In ThinkTanks, static shapes burn shadows into the lightmap. The light pack also has the capability to cast shadows from (and onto I beleive) DTS shapes (though I am not 100% sure). -- Joe Maruschak

#19 I moved this conversation over here.

#20 @Teck - Could you bounce over to the other thread and explain what you exactly mean when you said "Either way, this is possible in stock torque and QuArK (I've been messing around with this, since I've been used to building in the later Unreal engines).". You talking about shadows or DTS instances or what?