Torque features wishlist.
by Berserk · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 01/20/2005 (10:39 am) · 28 replies
.
About the author
#2
01/20/2005 (11:32 am)
Heh. guess that makes him a happy man. ;) 
#4
-Our documentation does not suck, it just doesn't tell you how to write your game. If is very difficult to teach somebody hwo to program and make a game at the same time that you are documenting an engine as large and diverse as Torque. We take strong exception to your statment that Torque docs suck.
-"Dynamic Shadows" on the milestone list addresses your shadow issue.
01/20/2005 (2:47 pm)
-We have stated that an OpenGL back port will eventually be done. -Our documentation does not suck, it just doesn't tell you how to write your game. If is very difficult to teach somebody hwo to program and make a game at the same time that you are documenting an engine as large and diverse as Torque. We take strong exception to your statment that Torque docs suck.
-"Dynamic Shadows" on the milestone list addresses your shadow issue.
#5
01/20/2005 (11:11 pm)
And the docs are also about to get a lot better. More on that later, though.
#7
01/21/2005 (2:35 am)
You want fries with that?
#8
A entry-level book that prepares you for the most common tasks of TGE.
Personally I believe that the demo and the included starter example isn't all bad but it takes a while to "get with the program" without that book.
The documentation on the site doesn't suck either, it's all basically there if you look...
And ofcourse, the forums is always a pretty good way to recieve info, as long as you take a moment and seek for it.
01/21/2005 (2:54 am)
Ivano, buying Ken Finneys 3D Game Programming All In One is common practice when it comes to learning the basics of torque..A entry-level book that prepares you for the most common tasks of TGE.
Personally I believe that the demo and the included starter example isn't all bad but it takes a while to "get with the program" without that book.
The documentation on the site doesn't suck either, it's all basically there if you look...
And ofcourse, the forums is always a pretty good way to recieve info, as long as you take a moment and seek for it.
#9
i picked up 3d game prograaming all in one and i have to say for getting into the engine i would recommend it greatly its sits on my desk as i type and i use it for reference on a couple thing even after reading through it .
kenneth
01/21/2005 (3:26 am)
Having a opengl only path would be silly its well documented that ati cards run directx better then opengl and nvidia ones run opengl better then directx so really as gg are planning have both paths as an option is good it allows more people to play your game with the best performance for the card that they are running . i picked up 3d game prograaming all in one and i have to say for getting into the engine i would recommend it greatly its sits on my desk as i type and i use it for reference on a couple thing even after reading through it .
kenneth
#10
01/21/2005 (9:41 am)
You can use TBE at www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=6950 to compile Torque. It is our free build environment based on Eclipse and GCC. 
#11
I would love to see more books like Ken's or new pathways to TGE for beginners, and I'm sure that GG does as well.
01/21/2005 (9:53 am)
Actually, I've found that the DBPro and 3DGS documentation doesn't do a very good job beyond the EXTREME basics. The user forums and their online magazines like AckNex and TheGameCreator's Newsletter are amazing, though. TGE is very well documented, but I can see where you're having difficulty. It would be nice to have a cross between Ken's book, the miniApp resources, and a C++ integration and manipulation guide. I can't wait to see what new documentation comes out, but the current documentation doesn't suck. It may not be newbie-friendly, as most programming and engine docs are not, but it is very good.I would love to see more books like Ken's or new pathways to TGE for beginners, and I'm sure that GG does as well.
#13
I have written a couple tutorials for Torque and I can tell you that the two examples you just mentioned would take at least 2 weeks to write and heavily comment the code and another 2+ weeks to write a cohesive, easily followed tutorial.
For reference... this tutorial Torque From Scratch took around one week to write and couple more days to clean up.
The game even has a function that will export a list of all current functions. As explained here you can even create a windows help file with said scripting documentation: www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=6853
One of those people, Edward Maurina is currently finishing up his book. Parts of which can be found here: www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=5661
Another here:
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=5718
And another:
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=2212
Post some links to those threads
01/21/2005 (9:58 am)
Quote:
However, a little (heavy commented) Torque app that loads a gui and another that loads a mission (without gui) wouldn't take too much time for a Torque expert.
I have written a couple tutorials for Torque and I can tell you that the two examples you just mentioned would take at least 2 weeks to write and heavily comment the code and another 2+ weeks to write a cohesive, easily followed tutorial.
For reference... this tutorial Torque From Scratch took around one week to write and couple more days to clean up.
Quote:Yes... at least 4-5 people have done this at one time or another.
Is there at least one non-GG-employer that knows (or have written a list) every built in function and variable of TorqueScript?
I bet no!
The game even has a function that will export a list of all current functions. As explained here you can even create a windows help file with said scripting documentation: www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=6853
One of those people, Edward Maurina is currently finishing up his book. Parts of which can be found here: www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=5661
Another here:
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=5718
And another:
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=2212
Quote:
Have a look at other engine's forum: nobody talks good about TGE or TSE, for the same reasons of my post.
Have a look at reality!!!!!
Post some links to those threads
#14
01/21/2005 (10:42 am)
Quote:How do you at GG claim to have written an AAA engine if is not capable of physics?Hmmm. Your use of the word "capable" in reference to Torque physics makes me think that you're shifting the blame from your own inability to integrate a third-party physics engine to Torque. If you had the money to purchase Havok (like a number of huge game companies currently do so that they don't have to create physics from scratch) and the ability to integrate it, perhaps you'd understand why your claim is laughable. Considering you could integrate ODE, Novadex, Toakamak and the like into the engine if you had the skillset necessary, I can't see where your beef is with Torque. Except your own inability to understand the engine.
#15
Quest3d really isnt a 3d engine like torque is..Its more like Director (visual programming paradigm) or one of the other macromedia products. If thats what your looking for then its a great product.
IMHO I'd rather have ground level access to the underlying code. And you will be hard stressed to find a networking layer as robust as the one in Torque and TNL.
It all boils down to your/teams skillset vs. needs vs. wants. Since you already own Torque and appearantly TSE. I would recommend digging in and exploring your options with what you already have bought. Rather than just throwing away money buying something to get there faster.
01/21/2005 (12:14 pm)
Quote:
I prefer paying a bit more bu getting a true AAA environment, capable of Physics, stunning (as Quest3D, wich I'm about to buy.....)
Quest3d really isnt a 3d engine like torque is..Its more like Director (visual programming paradigm) or one of the other macromedia products. If thats what your looking for then its a great product.
IMHO I'd rather have ground level access to the underlying code. And you will be hard stressed to find a networking layer as robust as the one in Torque and TNL.
It all boils down to your/teams skillset vs. needs vs. wants. Since you already own Torque and appearantly TSE. I would recommend digging in and exploring your options with what you already have bought. Rather than just throwing away money buying something to get there faster.
#18
I have never claimed to be a "SO GOOD" programmer, but the fact that I do it for a living, get paid, and have a stable position seems to imply that I'm somewhat competant even if I don't care to engage in pissing contests.
But as to your question on integrating ODE: because it would be a complete waste of my time. I don't need advanced physics. A lot of the reason why is that in the last several years, I can only think of a handful of games where physics mattered, regardless of how well implemented they were. Half-Life 2 was one of the first that gave advanced physics in games a reason to exist. Racing games use an extremely limited subset of physics. Ragdoll physics, while neat to see the first time, have no application other than eye candy. Games like Rocket Bowling use ODE to great effect, but again, that is one of the handful. While I do think that advanced physics can lead to some excellent gameplay situations, it's not even close to my to-do list.
You rail as if the problem is endemic to GG, but you don't seem to realize that we help new users every day. YOU are the one who isn't stepping up today, not us. You're projecting your inadequacies with Torque onto us rather than trying to learn to use it. I know you're frustrated, but you're not helping the situation by ranting incoherently.
It took me a long time to get comfortable with Torque. And I worked my ass off to do it. If I can do it, and a large number of people here on GG can do it, then it's not as impossible as you're making it out to be. Rather than sitting on the forums and yelling about how I didn't understand something or couldn't figure something out, I pulled up my sleeves and dug into the code and documentation (which actually was a problem back in the day). If I didn't understand something, I'd ask about it. But I didn't flail around expecting others to do my work for me. But then, I also read the product description, downloaded the demo, and knew what I was getting into. I didn't expect Havok physics to be integrated. I didn't expect advanced shader support. TSE was a pleasant surprise.
But, since you decided to ask me to integrate ODE for you, I'll ask you to sit down, learn the basics of Torque and write up beginner resources so that new people have an easier integration path. Perhaps then I'll go through the various ODE topics and resources and implement it for you. After all, others have already done my work for me. I bet if you actually search, you'll find that someone has done your work for you as well.
01/21/2005 (3:04 pm)
In addition: if you are a SO GOOD programmer, why don't you do yourself an integration of ODE and show us your skills?I have never claimed to be a "SO GOOD" programmer, but the fact that I do it for a living, get paid, and have a stable position seems to imply that I'm somewhat competant even if I don't care to engage in pissing contests.
But as to your question on integrating ODE: because it would be a complete waste of my time. I don't need advanced physics. A lot of the reason why is that in the last several years, I can only think of a handful of games where physics mattered, regardless of how well implemented they were. Half-Life 2 was one of the first that gave advanced physics in games a reason to exist. Racing games use an extremely limited subset of physics. Ragdoll physics, while neat to see the first time, have no application other than eye candy. Games like Rocket Bowling use ODE to great effect, but again, that is one of the handful. While I do think that advanced physics can lead to some excellent gameplay situations, it's not even close to my to-do list.
You rail as if the problem is endemic to GG, but you don't seem to realize that we help new users every day. YOU are the one who isn't stepping up today, not us. You're projecting your inadequacies with Torque onto us rather than trying to learn to use it. I know you're frustrated, but you're not helping the situation by ranting incoherently.
It took me a long time to get comfortable with Torque. And I worked my ass off to do it. If I can do it, and a large number of people here on GG can do it, then it's not as impossible as you're making it out to be. Rather than sitting on the forums and yelling about how I didn't understand something or couldn't figure something out, I pulled up my sleeves and dug into the code and documentation (which actually was a problem back in the day). If I didn't understand something, I'd ask about it. But I didn't flail around expecting others to do my work for me. But then, I also read the product description, downloaded the demo, and knew what I was getting into. I didn't expect Havok physics to be integrated. I didn't expect advanced shader support. TSE was a pleasant surprise.
But, since you decided to ask me to integrate ODE for you, I'll ask you to sit down, learn the basics of Torque and write up beginner resources so that new people have an easier integration path. Perhaps then I'll go through the various ODE topics and resources and implement it for you. After all, others have already done my work for me. I bet if you actually search, you'll find that someone has done your work for you as well.
#19
We are making big strides in improving the documentation. In fact, over the last year, the documentation has gotten so much better that most everyone we talk to about it says it rocks. Some of the opinions you pointed to above are outdated and/or must be from people who haven't investigated the docs lately.
From the comments you've made, I think you haven't seen all the documentation we officially support either. In particular, above, you said you hadn't seen any "official" GG-supported documentation done by the community. This tells me that you haven't seen one of our main documentation pages: the Torque tutorials homepage. Check it out. :) It's host to a number of official docs, many, many of which are community-generated.
I'm not saying that the docs there are perfect, or the layout, or that there is no more documentation work to do. But, we're at a very solid point now.
I am very familiar with the docs available in other engines. The stuff we have now easily stands up to what's available for Blitz, Dark, and A6. Very easily. As noted above, the documentation in some of those engines really isn't good for much but the absolute basics (to say nothing about the engine's themselves ;). We're getting closer and closer to competing with what's available for the well-known AAA engines too, and in fact already have more than some.
Now, that said, we recognize that there's always more documentation work to do. Improving it even further this year is a big goal for us. If we can do as much this year for docs as we did last, then... man, we'll be in great shape, and that'll help everyone who uses Torque.
In the coming months, watch for some particularly interesting updates. For example, in the next several weeks, we'll be putting a big update to our general docs out. Later, we'll have a major overhaul of the web docs and their layout. Can't say more on that for now, but it'll get easier to find docs here than ever before soon. Besides this, we'll continue generating new content on the web. And even beyond that, this year we are rolling out "GG Press", which will offer a whole line of printed and ebooks. As Harold pointed out above, Ed Maurina is working on books with us, and you can see a few preview chapters from his outstanding Essential Guide to Torque on the Torque Tutorials Homepage, pointed out above. (Note: the chapters in Ed's book are a few months old, and were released for free just to give people a taste of what EGTGE has been like. He's made lots and lots of improvements to the chapters since then as well.)
I was glad to read when you said that TSE will stand above most every other engine. We like to think so too. :) Hopefully you'll take some time and review some of the docs I've linked to below, and all the others that are available on the site. With those, maybe you'll agree we're actually in pretty good shape right now, and it should be encouraging for you to hear about all the continued improvements we have coming down the pipe for docs.
Particular docs to check out:
General Torque docs
Torque SDK source code
Essential Guide To Torque
CodeSampler Getting Started Tutorials
MinApp tutorial series (4 tutorials in the series, read 'em all!)
Scripting command reference
Scripting language reference
There are many more, for coders, artists, and world designers!
01/21/2005 (3:30 pm)
Ivano,We are making big strides in improving the documentation. In fact, over the last year, the documentation has gotten so much better that most everyone we talk to about it says it rocks. Some of the opinions you pointed to above are outdated and/or must be from people who haven't investigated the docs lately.
From the comments you've made, I think you haven't seen all the documentation we officially support either. In particular, above, you said you hadn't seen any "official" GG-supported documentation done by the community. This tells me that you haven't seen one of our main documentation pages: the Torque tutorials homepage. Check it out. :) It's host to a number of official docs, many, many of which are community-generated.
I'm not saying that the docs there are perfect, or the layout, or that there is no more documentation work to do. But, we're at a very solid point now.
I am very familiar with the docs available in other engines. The stuff we have now easily stands up to what's available for Blitz, Dark, and A6. Very easily. As noted above, the documentation in some of those engines really isn't good for much but the absolute basics (to say nothing about the engine's themselves ;). We're getting closer and closer to competing with what's available for the well-known AAA engines too, and in fact already have more than some.
Now, that said, we recognize that there's always more documentation work to do. Improving it even further this year is a big goal for us. If we can do as much this year for docs as we did last, then... man, we'll be in great shape, and that'll help everyone who uses Torque.
In the coming months, watch for some particularly interesting updates. For example, in the next several weeks, we'll be putting a big update to our general docs out. Later, we'll have a major overhaul of the web docs and their layout. Can't say more on that for now, but it'll get easier to find docs here than ever before soon. Besides this, we'll continue generating new content on the web. And even beyond that, this year we are rolling out "GG Press", which will offer a whole line of printed and ebooks. As Harold pointed out above, Ed Maurina is working on books with us, and you can see a few preview chapters from his outstanding Essential Guide to Torque on the Torque Tutorials Homepage, pointed out above. (Note: the chapters in Ed's book are a few months old, and were released for free just to give people a taste of what EGTGE has been like. He's made lots and lots of improvements to the chapters since then as well.)
I was glad to read when you said that TSE will stand above most every other engine. We like to think so too. :) Hopefully you'll take some time and review some of the docs I've linked to below, and all the others that are available on the site. With those, maybe you'll agree we're actually in pretty good shape right now, and it should be encouraging for you to hear about all the continued improvements we have coming down the pipe for docs.
Particular docs to check out:
General Torque docs
Torque SDK source code
Essential Guide To Torque
CodeSampler Getting Started Tutorials
MinApp tutorial series (4 tutorials in the series, read 'em all!)
Scripting command reference
Scripting language reference
There are many more, for coders, artists, and world designers!
Associate Kyle Carter