Games as Art?

#1

Quote:how much it can cause you to think more deeply about your own life

Personally games tend to make me think more about other people's lives... Ie I think about the life of the character I'm playing.

The type of immersion you are talking about I believe would typically come from an RPG game etc - in which we normally play as an elf of some sort... Problem with looking introspectively in regards to games is that we tend to use them as escapism from our lives, not to dig deeper into them.

So maybe the definition of art needs to be ammended? who knows? Who cares as long as the games are fun! ;)

#2 Craig,
You could apply the same line of thinking to other media as well. Surly many people think of the person's life that is portrayed in the movies, but I think 'art' causes you to think about your own life as well.

An example: I was talking to a friend about "Eyes Wide Shut" this morning. A viewer of this movie may think about the life of the characters played by Crusie and Kidman. But the greater emotional effect of the the movie is that it may cause you to think about the fraility of your own romantic relationships, thus causing you intorspection into your own life. (Note: due to other issues, I don't consider this movie 'art', but it does at least contain this one aspect as I have described).

As for your other point--"Dr. Stragnelove" was on last night. A great, very funny classic. The outrageousness of the plot and characters provides wonderful escapism, but at the same time...afterwards, you think about the absurdity of war and the effects of paranoia and how these things effect the world you live in.

The closest I have ever come to this feeling in a game was with "Planescape: Torment". Probably the best story in a game I have ever played. And it certianly made me think about my own mortality and meaning in my life (but to a much lesser extent than other media has).

#3 I think your definition of "art" is certainly debatable. I don't define art as something that affects me specifically, or makes me think about my life in any way more than anything else.

Shoehorning "art" as being only something that makes you think about your life is a very limiting definition, and discounts plenty of amazing artwork in the world that exists purely for aesthetic reasons. It also discounts the manner in which other people view art. When I admire monet, for example, I don't think about how the scenes he depicts may change my life, and I certainly don't introspect. I simply admire the beauty of the pieces, and also the technical brilliance with which they were created. When I look at classic roman or greek sculpture, I marvel at the detail in the statues, the work that must have gone into their creation, and the sheer beauty of their form.

When I see a game like Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, I consider that a marvellous work of art. Does it make me think about my life or introspect? Absolutely not. Does it make me stop and marvel at the beauty of its world, and the simple pleasure of its environmental puzzles? For sure. World of Warcraft allows me to escape into a world of pure imagination, as far from real life as it could be, but it's a fantastically artistic game, both in gameplay as well as art design.

What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that "art," like "literature," simply cannot be shoehorned into a singular, specific definition. Art affects everyone differently. How else would you explain the multitude of academic interpretations on, say, the Impressionist artists?

#4 Teck,
Interesting point. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong, and I guess I should readjust my terminology. Forget what I said about defining 'art' for now. However, my other point still stands in that affecting a person emotionally and intellectually is still done so much more effectively in other media.

I can appreciate what you mean about the aestetic beauty of Prince of Persia (not to mention the beauty of its contol fluidity).

I still think there is room for advancemnt in affecting someone emotionally and intellectually through games and am still wondering if anyone has played anything that has had this effect on them?

Thanks!

#5 I always found shen mue on the dreamcast to be a very captivatin experience. I felt a real sense for the worthyness of his cause, Whether this is due to a good storyline, or fluid gameplay i'm not sure. but i'd sure as hell like to put it down to good storylines.

I believe the point you are trying to get at is how games for whatever reason are not considered artistic by "outsiders" to the gaming industry. its something that needs to change and games like Ico are doing this slowly but surely.

#6 Glad someone mentioned Ico (I forgot to mention it in my previous post). Fantastic game, and some incredible artwork. Not only that, but for a main character who doesn't speak, and a supporting character the player can't understand (at least in the US version), I certainly felt a great emotional attachment to the both of them. So much so that the endgame was quite the tearjerker (I'll not specify if the tears were of happiness or sorrow, for those who intend to play the game through).

Robert, I'll disagree with with you on the lack of emotional impact in videogames these days, compared with other forms of media, such as books and television. Granted, there have been many books that have gripped me, and movies that have made me cry, and television series that have introduced great emotional attachment or understanding of characters and situations, but those would be the diamonds in the rough. Plenty of books and movies are utter crap, that serve no purpose other than visual or aural tittilation (not that there's anything particularly wrong with that, mind you).

In the same manner, plenty of videogames serve to provide zero emotional impact. Whether by choice or by awful scriptwriting and character development (Prince of Persia: Warrior Within - I don't even like the guy; why would I spend 20 hours of awful puzzling and combat to save his bloody life?), they exist just as they do in other forms of media.

By the same hook, there are videogames that, at least for myself, provide great emotional impact. Ico, as I've mentioned, is one of the standouts. Some of the better war-setting shooters have done so as well (some Call of Duty's fantastic set-pieces come to mind). The upcoming Brothers in Arms looks pretty promising on that front, as well. And to hearken back to the glory days, Ultima VII (all four of them) was another fantastic example of a game that fostered my emotional attachment to its world and characters (I actually shed a tear when some of the main characters were killed off to advance the plot).

Now, I realize I haven't mentioned any sort of introspective tendencies that these games have induced, but then, most other entertainment media doesn't tend to cause me to look at my life. They tend to be, for me, escapist entertainment, as a previous poster has suggested. I tend to immerse myself in the atmosphere of the story, the location, the environment, the characters. This is, of course, dependent on the writing, cinematography, acting, etc, which is the case for games as well.

#7 Teck,
Thanks, again, for the comments!

Some people have introspective moments as a result of media and some don't (differnt strokes, y'all). I have always been one who has--IF the media involved had the type of context that sparked such introspection. (What was that quote?--some people can read War and Peace and see nothing but a good war story--some can see the wonders of the universe in a bubble gum wrapper)

That context, at least for me, has been mostly absent from games.

I think at least we can all agree that there is room for growth in the realm of video games.

#8 The nature of games is that they are geared more towards creating a fun experience than telling a emotion-provoking story... generally.

If you want those emotional aspects and introspection, then the best games are usually adventure games or role-playing games.

#9 Many factors go into whether you feel what the characters are 'feeling', the game developer's ability to create the immersive aura that pulls you in, as well as your own willingness to believe you are a part of it. Take Resident Evil for example:

While that game, compared to its peers, may not be incredibly terrifying, when you imagine that you are infact one of the characters (I do this about 95% of the time I read, watch movies, or play games), it can be very scary.

Same with roleplaying games, but in those, ES III: Morrowind especially, the fact that your character is you by almost all definitions other than physical (even psyche; you control the character, therefore your corporeal being can be considered the mind of the digital one - think of it as your avatar in the world that you are a god of), and that allows the immersion to be almost entirely up to yourself as you play the game. I've found myself discovering new areas, gaining extra levels, and beating notoriously difficult monsters in a variety of RPGs, and after which I felt personal satisfaction and accomplishment, not just within the game, but outside - as if I were truly the character I am represented as. This translates into when my character also experiences sad things, I am sometimes moved, not usually to the point of tears from my eyes, but I feel sympathetic, or with enough immersion, I am the one that that sad event occured upon.

Just my thoughts...

#10 When have games NOT been art?

If it wasn't for the captivating story/gameplay of King Quest I would not be here right now. One thing with art is that the "fine art" world is very hesitant to accept new mediums. Does that mean Computer Graphics images is not art? I don't think so. Seeing that art is so subjective, I belive games as "art" really depends on the player. It wasn't but 10 years ago when only hardcore geeks were the only real players, but with the advent of games like the Sims gaming is becoming more and more main stream. Does that me games are more "artsy" now, no, just that more people are open to new experiances.

#11 The line between movies and games is ever blurring. Eventually, there will be little distinction.

#12 The medium is the message.

#13 What about the Myst series? The games are both beautiful and pull you deep into the plot. The latter is especailly true since YOU (not a character you control) are the main character. I certaily view the Myst series as art.

#14 Hehe, I think it'd be much better someone could find a definition of "art" everyone can agree with first. Until then, any discussion of such nature is not really worth much.

#15 @Nauris:
I would disagree with you. As I mentioned in an earlier post, trying to define "art" is like trying to define "literature": everyone's going to have a different viewpoint. In fact, it's this diversity of opinions that makes these discussions so much more interesting and, arguably, useful.

#16 I'll submit the games Sanitarium and VagrantStory as ones that I considered to be works of art.

My own project _Xenallure: A Tapestry of Hearts_ is being designed with the goal of creating a deep, literary-quality cast of characters and story which makes the player think about relationship ethics and social theory. Have a look:
members.gamedev.net/sunandshadow/XenallureDesignDoc.doc

#17 Teck, I kind of understand what you mean, but acknowledge - then topic "Games as Art" is slightly odd, because no one's really sure about the definition of the keyword.

#18 A word without a meaning is just a sound... surely? ;)

Art means different things to different people, but that doesn't mean it cant have one definition for all...

#19 Thank you, everyone, for your continuing comments. This is turning out to be a somewhat interesting thread.

I agree that there is not one universal definition for Art. Note the penultimate post, "A great deal (to me) of what defines Art is..."

I guess I should have said that this particular aspect of this particular definition of "Art" seems to be mission from games, and was just pondering as to whether or not it was actually possible in this medium. And if so, how effective could it be?