Just thoughts on RTS
by Paul Malyschko · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 11/17/2001 (10:47 am) · 11 replies
It's been a very long time since I've come on here. Several months, and it's good to see that independent gamemakers are stlil supported with the existence of this site.
I was up until about a year ago involved with the design of an RTS, from its base mechanics to the actual artwork and storyline. Since then, it dwindled and we haven't really done anything (we are a net-based group) although the main thing is we are all good friends, and most people are just off experiencing life (we all love games; just want to see what else there is first before going on with it).
Unfortunately, the person who first thought of the idea, based it on his favourite game of the time, Starcraft. As such, the game mechanics did not really progress any further than that, although we have tried to update it now and then, without a lot of success. Such decisions included doing it in 3D over 2D. I tried to stress about not just making it 3D just for the sake of it; unfortunately, we weren't really sure how to capitalise on the advantages of 3D in a gameplay sense.
As such, my inspiration for the game crumbled, and it's been a year since I've touched anything. I started doing concept art, wanting to make a scientifically based alien world (fan of Wayne Douglas Barlow, an illustrator who created an entire world of biologically possible alien creatures). It's been hard, but I've been getting there in that respect.
To cut it short (since I'm waffling on a bit), I was just seeking inspiration from this group of talented people, on their thoughts of how RTS could be possibly, changed, rearranged, cut up, etc. I've been thinking of ways, none which have screamed out at me saying "use me!", and am hoping discussion about the topic will lead to some ideas generated.
I've thought about changing the types of goals attainable, i.e., instead of always having to destroy things all the time, quite possibly, you have to stop two sides from destroying themselves; diplomacy.
Also, the actual gameplay style for each race I've thought about changing... one race we had in the design was played very differently to many of your standard RTS types. Unfortunately, the other races in the game were, to say the least, uninspiring.
Without too much prompt, too, with the fact we were going to use a 3D engine, the idea of FPS reared its ugly head. I personally think it more preferable with RPG elements than straight out fighting... I'm starting to like the ideas of diplomacy, and exploration, rather than just straight out fighting... although how I could incorporate it remains to be seen.
Quite possibly, something really weird, you could incorporate puzzle elements into the game. I have no idea how, but it sounds interesting either way.
Anyway, I know there are people like MSW (I'll see you on the Conceptual Art Forum) here and others who have particular thoughts on RTS. We started the design in late '98, and since then it's ballooned out, in good and bad ways. I'm too close to it to be able to think of anything new at the moment, so maybe some discussion about it will help me along.
I was up until about a year ago involved with the design of an RTS, from its base mechanics to the actual artwork and storyline. Since then, it dwindled and we haven't really done anything (we are a net-based group) although the main thing is we are all good friends, and most people are just off experiencing life (we all love games; just want to see what else there is first before going on with it).
Unfortunately, the person who first thought of the idea, based it on his favourite game of the time, Starcraft. As such, the game mechanics did not really progress any further than that, although we have tried to update it now and then, without a lot of success. Such decisions included doing it in 3D over 2D. I tried to stress about not just making it 3D just for the sake of it; unfortunately, we weren't really sure how to capitalise on the advantages of 3D in a gameplay sense.
As such, my inspiration for the game crumbled, and it's been a year since I've touched anything. I started doing concept art, wanting to make a scientifically based alien world (fan of Wayne Douglas Barlow, an illustrator who created an entire world of biologically possible alien creatures). It's been hard, but I've been getting there in that respect.
To cut it short (since I'm waffling on a bit), I was just seeking inspiration from this group of talented people, on their thoughts of how RTS could be possibly, changed, rearranged, cut up, etc. I've been thinking of ways, none which have screamed out at me saying "use me!", and am hoping discussion about the topic will lead to some ideas generated.
I've thought about changing the types of goals attainable, i.e., instead of always having to destroy things all the time, quite possibly, you have to stop two sides from destroying themselves; diplomacy.
Also, the actual gameplay style for each race I've thought about changing... one race we had in the design was played very differently to many of your standard RTS types. Unfortunately, the other races in the game were, to say the least, uninspiring.
Without too much prompt, too, with the fact we were going to use a 3D engine, the idea of FPS reared its ugly head. I personally think it more preferable with RPG elements than straight out fighting... I'm starting to like the ideas of diplomacy, and exploration, rather than just straight out fighting... although how I could incorporate it remains to be seen.
Quite possibly, something really weird, you could incorporate puzzle elements into the game. I have no idea how, but it sounds interesting either way.
Anyway, I know there are people like MSW (I'll see you on the Conceptual Art Forum) here and others who have particular thoughts on RTS. We started the design in late '98, and since then it's ballooned out, in good and bad ways. I'm too close to it to be able to think of anything new at the moment, so maybe some discussion about it will help me along.
About the author
#2
Yeah, I think we always argued about resources, and trying to get something *real* or at least more plausible than races always just using the same crystals and gas and whatnot.
I'm not sure if we had a similar idea, but yes, that is definitely a good idea. The feeding circle, will have to remember that one.
Actually, we had four races in this one, so it was a little different (for the sake of clarity I won't use the names we called them): Humans, Aliens, Robots and Spirits. I know it sounds crap, but it's a lot better when you have their real names, and the actual effort put into each one of the races :).
Yes, our idea was slightly different. You talk about by-products, which is slightly different to what we had. Each race had a primary resource, and then two special resources. All four primary resources were different, but there were four special resources which certain races had to fight over. I can't remember how complicated it gets, but I'm sure there would be balancing issues in it. Making things by-products could be an interesting twist in it anyhow.
In the meantime, I got to do some more concept artwork for my alien race. It's a very complicated creature, with six life-stages. I want to put it on the CAF, but I'm still awaiting my membership :(.
11/17/2001 (12:17 pm)
Awesome :)Yeah, I think we always argued about resources, and trying to get something *real* or at least more plausible than races always just using the same crystals and gas and whatnot.
I'm not sure if we had a similar idea, but yes, that is definitely a good idea. The feeding circle, will have to remember that one.
Actually, we had four races in this one, so it was a little different (for the sake of clarity I won't use the names we called them): Humans, Aliens, Robots and Spirits. I know it sounds crap, but it's a lot better when you have their real names, and the actual effort put into each one of the races :).
Yes, our idea was slightly different. You talk about by-products, which is slightly different to what we had. Each race had a primary resource, and then two special resources. All four primary resources were different, but there were four special resources which certain races had to fight over. I can't remember how complicated it gets, but I'm sure there would be balancing issues in it. Making things by-products could be an interesting twist in it anyhow.
In the meantime, I got to do some more concept artwork for my alien race. It's a very complicated creature, with six life-stages. I want to put it on the CAF, but I'm still awaiting my membership :(.
#3
Basically my point is try to keep your resource system simple because if it take a lot to learn how to use it you will loose your audience. StarCraft is still an incredibly popular game because it is easy to learn and games can be fast. There are obviously other things that maintain the life of a game but those are two important ones.
Alc
11/17/2001 (7:27 pm)
Although in StarCraft the resources were all the same I think it was appropriate for the game style they made. Resources were important but they weren't the objective so making it simple would improve the gameplay. I would suggest that if you have a more complex resource structure then try and work out someway to make part of the objective of the game to gain those resources. For example making a harvester style game where teams have 30 minutes (never a big fan of a set time limit on a game) to capture as many resources as possible from the enemy bases. After that you could either end the game or have the teams duke it out with out gaining more resources.Basically my point is try to keep your resource system simple because if it take a lot to learn how to use it you will loose your audience. StarCraft is still an incredibly popular game because it is easy to learn and games can be fast. There are obviously other things that maintain the life of a game but those are two important ones.
Alc
#4
11/17/2001 (8:46 pm)
actully i've been thinking of concepts for an RTS I just might do. It's a medieval fantasy, many different races you can be, like orcish race, humans, skeletons, vampires, etc... and i have especially good concepts for the vampires (best race in the game but extremely hard to play). Anyways basically how you command is you "posses" one of your guys. You cna switch which one you control (therefore easily commanding a group by your base while commanding a group at your enemies base and i don't have to figure a way to do some fog of war thing in torque). This also makes it easy for a rogue to infiltrate an enemy base alone, and for you to command his actions precisely so you dont' have to worry about pathfinding screwing up and making you die! Each race would be different, like orcs would basicaly only ahve archers, warriors, and maybe some shamans because they are supposed to be stupid, but their warriors are much stronger than regular human warriors for example, but the human warriors can be upgraded (armor and trianing and such, i havne't spent that much time on it) anyways i have other ideas and I would love to make this game but i have no time but I may still work on it in my free time....
#5
race 1
need: technobable crystals
output: technobable gas
race 2
need: technobable gas
output: technobable liquid
race 3
need: technobable liquid
output: technobable crystals
What about this:
Race 2 wipes out race 3, now race 1 has no acess to resources since race 3 is gone and no longer produces the necessary resource, while race 2 has no such problems and can now easily wipe out race 1. Ofcourse this could be interesting since race 1 would have to do it's best to keep race 3 alive and focus on crashing race 2, only then it could afford taking battle with race 3.
Also one other problem is if you only got 2 players playing and they choose race 1 and race 2, race 1 produces resource for race 2 but no vice versa. Race 2 will almose allways win :)
11/17/2001 (8:54 pm)
msw, good idea but tell me what happens when you got 3 races in one game and race 1
need: technobable crystals
output: technobable gas
race 2
need: technobable gas
output: technobable liquid
race 3
need: technobable liquid
output: technobable crystals
What about this:
Race 2 wipes out race 3, now race 1 has no acess to resources since race 3 is gone and no longer produces the necessary resource, while race 2 has no such problems and can now easily wipe out race 1. Ofcourse this could be interesting since race 1 would have to do it's best to keep race 3 alive and focus on crashing race 2, only then it could afford taking battle with race 3.
Also one other problem is if you only got 2 players playing and they choose race 1 and race 2, race 1 produces resource for race 2 but no vice versa. Race 2 will almose allways win :)
#6
If I remember correctly, a game that has already done this, although whether there was any real point to it, was BZ (Battlezone), and its sequel, BZ2.
I played the game a bit, and didn't think it particularly fantastic. Ambitious, but I thought they could've pulled it off a bit better. I suppose, I just want to see if there's more that can be done beyond simple infiltration missions, etc.
11/18/2001 (6:50 am)
Matthew: Yeah, we discussed that idea in my group a while back (as part of doing the first person idea), and we thought it would be good for what you said, doing rogue infiltration missions, etc., which could be interesting for game play.If I remember correctly, a game that has already done this, although whether there was any real point to it, was BZ (Battlezone), and its sequel, BZ2.
I played the game a bit, and didn't think it particularly fantastic. Ambitious, but I thought they could've pulled it off a bit better. I suppose, I just want to see if there's more that can be done beyond simple infiltration missions, etc.
#7
Personally I dont like the game much, the gameplay is not too good, but the features it has makes it at least worth to try the demo.
11/18/2001 (7:01 am)
There's this game named Dark Reign 2 (http://www.pandemicstudios.com/dr2) which has some great features and takes an excellent advantage of the 3D on it.Personally I dont like the game much, the gameplay is not too good, but the features it has makes it at least worth to try the demo.
#8
So if any races is killed none of the other 2 races can continue to grow.
All 3 races are needed to produce a full cycle of resources.
// Clocks out
www.flashthunder.com
11/18/2001 (7:14 am)
GEMA, actually if race 2 vipe out race 3 then race 1 can't get its resources and therefore not produces any byproduct that race 2 needs.So if any races is killed none of the other 2 races can continue to grow.
All 3 races are needed to produce a full cycle of resources.
// Clocks out
www.flashthunder.com
#9
Three useful byproducts and three harmful byproducts could make your game a real balancing act.
11/18/2001 (8:10 am)
Instead of just looking at the useful byproducts of each race you could also look at the harmful byproducts as well. In addition to producing "useful" technobabble gas, another byproduct is the technobabble "green sludge" which binds to trace amounts of argon gas in the atmosphere. This causes no problems for race 1 but race 2 finds the atmosphere slowly becoming tainted and unbreathable. Technobabble liquid production also yields "Red sludge" which poisons the soil for race 3. "Blue sludge" poisons the water for race 1. You get the idea. Now you could have techincal advances that reduce harmful emmissions being developed by one race and offered to another race in order to reduce pollution levels - plus a bribe or threat to make them use, it of course.Three useful byproducts and three harmful byproducts could make your game a real balancing act.
#10
anymore. Also there is another thing, how do you balance resources if you got multiplayer game with
let's say 5 players where 3 players choose race 1, 1 player choose race 2 and 1 player left
choose race 3. Now you've got lots of "technobable gas" in the environment which is good for race 2
and even for race 3. If each player with race 1 outputs let's 200 then race 2 gets 600 resources, and in turn
it outputs 600 to race 3 which also outputs 600, now race 1 players are all sharing their resources and
if they are lucky they will get more or less round 200 each, which is not fair considering that race 2 and race
3 both get 600 each which makes them progress much faster.
Now if race 2 and 3 work together in the beginning they can easily wipe out all race 1 players unless
race 1 players team as well in order to have a chance of surviving. However I agree that this concept
could lead to some interesting situations indeed.
11/18/2001 (8:21 am)
You are right Clocks, if one race is wiped out then circle is broken and none can continue to developanymore. Also there is another thing, how do you balance resources if you got multiplayer game with
let's say 5 players where 3 players choose race 1, 1 player choose race 2 and 1 player left
choose race 3. Now you've got lots of "technobable gas" in the environment which is good for race 2
and even for race 3. If each player with race 1 outputs let's 200 then race 2 gets 600 resources, and in turn
it outputs 600 to race 3 which also outputs 600, now race 1 players are all sharing their resources and
if they are lucky they will get more or less round 200 each, which is not fair considering that race 2 and race
3 both get 600 each which makes them progress much faster.
Now if race 2 and 3 work together in the beginning they can easily wipe out all race 1 players unless
race 1 players team as well in order to have a chance of surviving. However I agree that this concept
could lead to some interesting situations indeed.
#11
Hows this:
race 1 (gravity)
needs crystals
byproduct gas
units are strongest against race 3
race 2 (light)
needs gas
byproduct liquid
strong against race 1
race 3 (flow)
needs liquid
byproduct crystals
strong against race 2
this creates situations in which each race is strongest against the race that can harm it the most through subtle meens...basicly creates a very balanced situation where "what ever helps me also hurts me"
Example race 2 could attack race 1...being that they are stronger against them, they may have an easyer time doing this...but this would hurt them in the long run as race 1 produces the byproduct they need...so race 2 decides to take on race 3...but this would be difficult as race 3 is stronger against race 2 so the battle would be more difficult.
This would generate a "cold war" type game dynamic...where the first to act, will likely be the first to lose.
As long as there is a real diverse set of units available to each race, this could be a fun game as the gameplay emphesis would be more on unit tactics and how these units are used by the player...then on the "gang up" or "tank rush" gameplay found in many RTS games...for example:
race 1 (gravity)
gravity control is the strong point of this race...they can create little "black hole bubbles" that can crush other units comeing into contact with them (these bubbles would move very slowly and last for a minute or two)...the units of this race can be slow but powerfull...the race would only have a limited number of unit types (say 3, but each unit would have several action options)...skills needed to play this race would be long range planning
race 2 (light)
light control is the strength of this race...units are very specific as each unit would be highly focused on specific actions...the main weapon would be a "laser pointer" type thing...basicly a line from the unit to the map edges...anything touching this line would be damaged (however the black hole bubbles would bend the line...) and there could be "mirror" units to bounce the line around...skills needed to play this race would be the ability to specific unit types for a variety of tasks.
Race 3 (flow)
this race would be nanotechnology basied...there are only 3 different units...red (attack), blue (defense), and green (movement)...that are combined to form "gels"...how effective the "gels" are depends on the percentage of each base unit that is contained within...if the gel has a 20/20/60 percent for red/green/blue then the gel would be very fast...different gels could be combined to form larger "gels"...or they could be split in half createing two seperate "gels" of roughly equal stats...the gels actually must touch a enemy unit to attack it.
this would create that "race 1 strong against race 3" gameplay concept without arbitray stats...race 1 can create gravity bubbles (area effect) that can suck up the "gels" of race 3..but these bubbles can't stop the lasers of race 2 (so race 2 can still harm race 1 if they use the units and "light bending" properties of the bubbles correctly)...race 2 would be weak against the gels because a head on attack would only split the gels into two new ones...this creates a balanced situation where no race is the most powerful, yet each race is strong against one but weak against the other
how is that?
11/18/2001 (9:38 am)
I'm glad you folks like the idea...it only took like two seconds to think up :)Hows this:
race 1 (gravity)
needs crystals
byproduct gas
units are strongest against race 3
race 2 (light)
needs gas
byproduct liquid
strong against race 1
race 3 (flow)
needs liquid
byproduct crystals
strong against race 2
this creates situations in which each race is strongest against the race that can harm it the most through subtle meens...basicly creates a very balanced situation where "what ever helps me also hurts me"
Example race 2 could attack race 1...being that they are stronger against them, they may have an easyer time doing this...but this would hurt them in the long run as race 1 produces the byproduct they need...so race 2 decides to take on race 3...but this would be difficult as race 3 is stronger against race 2 so the battle would be more difficult.
This would generate a "cold war" type game dynamic...where the first to act, will likely be the first to lose.
As long as there is a real diverse set of units available to each race, this could be a fun game as the gameplay emphesis would be more on unit tactics and how these units are used by the player...then on the "gang up" or "tank rush" gameplay found in many RTS games...for example:
race 1 (gravity)
gravity control is the strong point of this race...they can create little "black hole bubbles" that can crush other units comeing into contact with them (these bubbles would move very slowly and last for a minute or two)...the units of this race can be slow but powerfull...the race would only have a limited number of unit types (say 3, but each unit would have several action options)...skills needed to play this race would be long range planning
race 2 (light)
light control is the strength of this race...units are very specific as each unit would be highly focused on specific actions...the main weapon would be a "laser pointer" type thing...basicly a line from the unit to the map edges...anything touching this line would be damaged (however the black hole bubbles would bend the line...) and there could be "mirror" units to bounce the line around...skills needed to play this race would be the ability to specific unit types for a variety of tasks.
Race 3 (flow)
this race would be nanotechnology basied...there are only 3 different units...red (attack), blue (defense), and green (movement)...that are combined to form "gels"...how effective the "gels" are depends on the percentage of each base unit that is contained within...if the gel has a 20/20/60 percent for red/green/blue then the gel would be very fast...different gels could be combined to form larger "gels"...or they could be split in half createing two seperate "gels" of roughly equal stats...the gels actually must touch a enemy unit to attack it.
this would create that "race 1 strong against race 3" gameplay concept without arbitray stats...race 1 can create gravity bubbles (area effect) that can suck up the "gels" of race 3..but these bubbles can't stop the lasers of race 2 (so race 2 can still harm race 1 if they use the units and "light bending" properties of the bubbles correctly)...race 2 would be weak against the gels because a head on attack would only split the gels into two new ones...this creates a balanced situation where no race is the most powerful, yet each race is strong against one but weak against the other
how is that?
MSW
I always loved Starcraft...the three seperate races were very cool...playing each was a completely different experience as each race didn't "share" units..you know..I have a medium tank..the aliens have a medium tank..the graphics are different but all the rest is the same..sure this is easyer to balance..but it gets dull real quick...
However the one thing that bugged me about Starcraft was the "resource management" system where all three races depended on the same two items...what I think would work better and add a lot of strategy would be to use a "feeding circle" approch..er here is what I meen:
*Humans need "technobable crystals" to power everything...a by-product of useing these crystals is "technobable gas"...this is a harmless gas that is pumped out of the human power factories
Alien race #1 needs "technobable gas" to power everything...a harmless by-product of useing this gas is "technobable liquid"
Alien race #2 needs "technobable liquid" to produce power...a harmless by-product of doing this is "technobable crystals"
See how they feed off each other? Notice the possible stratigies that could develop?
but these are just my initial thoughts...