F P S
by arteria3d · in Torque Game Engine · 12/14/2004 (1:41 pm) · 37 replies
I just dont get it at all. I check my FPS and displaying between 40-50,000 polys i am gettng an FPS of 14.
I am using 2.8 P4 with 1.5 gig ram, and a Nvidia 5700 oc graphics card.
Does this sound right?
Steve
I am using 2.8 P4 with 1.5 gig ram, and a Nvidia 5700 oc graphics card.
Does this sound right?
Steve
About the author
Owner of uk based Ltd company ArteriaMediaLtd. with a trading name of Arteria3d Website;arteria3d.com
#3
Have you tried Tribes 2?
12/15/2004 (5:11 pm)
No, something is definately wrong. Have you had any problems with 3d games before?Have you tried Tribes 2?
#4
i run torque on 40k polys more and fps dies
I had my friend run the same comparison and we both found that the frame dies at around 35k of polys.
Try it yourself
Start the starter.fps up - add 50k's worth of the internal objects - trees etc, move the camera away so all is in view - i.e. the 50k of polys and see your frame plummit...
12/15/2004 (5:13 pm)
Mate i run farcry at top spec, everquest 2 at top spec - and all is smooth.i run torque on 40k polys more and fps dies
I had my friend run the same comparison and we both found that the frame dies at around 35k of polys.
Try it yourself
Start the starter.fps up - add 50k's worth of the internal objects - trees etc, move the camera away so all is in view - i.e. the 50k of polys and see your frame plummit...
#5
Couple of things--
1) Posting the same general question/post in different forums doesn't get you much additional assistance, it just tends to annoy folks. Cross-posting is something that isn't really well-liked in the forums, mostly because the people with the experience to answer your questions (or at least point you in the right direction) don't have the time to read and re-read multiple threads on the same topic.
2) You've already been told one of the primary areas to research/test regarding your performance issue. You've also been told that most of us have -no- issues with the performance "standard" that you are working on (~50k polys in a scene). In fact, as I mentioned in the other post you've been asking in, I easily run a 100k polygon scene of fully animated and AI controlled unit objects in my recent test cases with the RTS-SK (200 units in full combat, each unit comprising an average of 400-600 polys, full animations plus projectiles and particle emitters, not to mention standard terrain). You've also been told where to look, and what research to do, to fix your issues.
Torque is not a "game in a box". While many of the experienced TGE developers/artists in the community are more than willing to answer questions and point you in the right direction, they are not willing/capable of solving all of your issues remotely, and you will need to work with the advice given to you to accomplish solutions to your issues.
The "standard" you are using for comparison seems to be "EverQuest 2" or "FarCry", but what you are not realizing is that it took literally years to optimize the commercial release of those games, and you are trying to duplicate their exact performance specifications with extremely low experience in TGE, not to mention the wrong drivers and general environment.
If you are willing to spend the time and effort to accomplish your goals by taking the advice/general pointers that you are given in the forums, I am sure that you will meet your game goals in the long run.
However, if you are looking to meet the performance specifications of the above mentioned games, without taking the time to learn how and why the perform as they do, I understand that you can purchase some of the game engines used by Doom 3, etc. for a princely sum of $500,000 US (or more).
Just realize that the standard you are comparing your basic attempts at using TGE is the end result of literally teams of dozens (if not hundreds), combined with budgets in the multi-million dollar range. You aren't going to get to that point without a lot of sweat, and a lot of practice!
12/15/2004 (7:48 pm)
@Stevie:Couple of things--
1) Posting the same general question/post in different forums doesn't get you much additional assistance, it just tends to annoy folks. Cross-posting is something that isn't really well-liked in the forums, mostly because the people with the experience to answer your questions (or at least point you in the right direction) don't have the time to read and re-read multiple threads on the same topic.
2) You've already been told one of the primary areas to research/test regarding your performance issue. You've also been told that most of us have -no- issues with the performance "standard" that you are working on (~50k polys in a scene). In fact, as I mentioned in the other post you've been asking in, I easily run a 100k polygon scene of fully animated and AI controlled unit objects in my recent test cases with the RTS-SK (200 units in full combat, each unit comprising an average of 400-600 polys, full animations plus projectiles and particle emitters, not to mention standard terrain). You've also been told where to look, and what research to do, to fix your issues.
Torque is not a "game in a box". While many of the experienced TGE developers/artists in the community are more than willing to answer questions and point you in the right direction, they are not willing/capable of solving all of your issues remotely, and you will need to work with the advice given to you to accomplish solutions to your issues.
The "standard" you are using for comparison seems to be "EverQuest 2" or "FarCry", but what you are not realizing is that it took literally years to optimize the commercial release of those games, and you are trying to duplicate their exact performance specifications with extremely low experience in TGE, not to mention the wrong drivers and general environment.
If you are willing to spend the time and effort to accomplish your goals by taking the advice/general pointers that you are given in the forums, I am sure that you will meet your game goals in the long run.
However, if you are looking to meet the performance specifications of the above mentioned games, without taking the time to learn how and why the perform as they do, I understand that you can purchase some of the game engines used by Doom 3, etc. for a princely sum of $500,000 US (or more).
Just realize that the standard you are comparing your basic attempts at using TGE is the end result of literally teams of dozens (if not hundreds), combined with budgets in the multi-million dollar range. You aren't going to get to that point without a lot of sweat, and a lot of practice!
#6
Yours points above - of 'you have been told so' make me feel like i am still at school. Please, talk to me in a friendly manner - not this way - cos that really annoys me too.
Also - it was a genuine error posting a similar thread twice, and the fact that it annoys people is tough. i didnt realise - so please dont be angry......
God... i wish people would chill on this website
12/16/2004 (4:16 am)
You know it really does annoy me posts like above. The line 'if u spend more time to learn' Please friend, u dont know how much time i spend learning torque. Cos i have time off right now from my self employment - i have been learning torque 24/7 and more than willing to learn learn learn. Yours points above - of 'you have been told so' make me feel like i am still at school. Please, talk to me in a friendly manner - not this way - cos that really annoys me too.
Also - it was a genuine error posting a similar thread twice, and the fact that it annoys people is tough. i didnt realise - so please dont be angry......
God... i wish people would chill on this website
#7
Every question I see of his is generally a good one.
And sure double posts are bad. But posts sometimes get a little of topic and it's better to start a new one.
If people are going to start slamming others, at least do it for good reasons.
People are here to learn. So lets not be running everyone off.
12/16/2004 (4:37 am)
Stevies right in a way. The only thing he is guilty of is asking the questions. Sure there is a way of going about it, but each site is different.Every question I see of his is generally a good one.
And sure double posts are bad. But posts sometimes get a little of topic and it's better to start a new one.
If people are going to start slamming others, at least do it for good reasons.
People are here to learn. So lets not be running everyone off.
#8
As for your 'problem' - well it's nearly impossible to gauge what might be causing your slowdown without having a very clear idea of the content you're implementing. It's not all a matter of polys. It could have to do with the textures you're using, lights in the scene, how your OS is configured or any number of things. I know you don't want to hear this, but you're going to have to experiment and find out how why it's not performing the way you like it since you seem to be the only one having an issue with it.
The alternative is, of course, to post your mission file and all your content so someone else can download it and see if their build reacts the same, or would at least be able to take a gander at what you're trying to get rendered and give some pointers on how to optimize it.
Good luck!
12/16/2004 (4:44 am)
Huh? It strikes me that Steven's post was rather cordial and polite as comapred to yours, Stevie. Tough that cross-posting annoys people? Uh, with that sort of attitude I'm suprised anyone helps you at all. It seems to me that you're the one that's got a whole lot of chillin' out to do. I recommend a hot bath actually, does wonders for the nerves.As for your 'problem' - well it's nearly impossible to gauge what might be causing your slowdown without having a very clear idea of the content you're implementing. It's not all a matter of polys. It could have to do with the textures you're using, lights in the scene, how your OS is configured or any number of things. I know you don't want to hear this, but you're going to have to experiment and find out how why it's not performing the way you like it since you seem to be the only one having an issue with it.
The alternative is, of course, to post your mission file and all your content so someone else can download it and see if their build reacts the same, or would at least be able to take a gander at what you're trying to get rendered and give some pointers on how to optimize it.
Good luck!
#10
12/16/2004 (5:24 am)
Whatever floats yer boat, mate ;)
#11
I should have released when I told you to get new drivers and you went out and bought a new video card instead.
You've been a member since November 3rd, 2004. Farcry, Everquest 2 (which you are using as your "standard" to compare TGE against) took dozens and dozens of people years to accomplish what they did.
All I am saying by my post above is that things are not going to come to you in a month, or even 6 months, or even a year to even come close to that level of performance, and also that if someone gives advice, you may want to take it instead of posting in another forum looking for different advice to the same question. It was insulting to me that you blew off my continued attempts to help you out, ignored my advice, and then proceeded to ask elsewhere.
12/16/2004 (5:39 am)
I'll put it bluntly: I've spent much more time on this thread then I should have, because you aren't listening to advice in any case.I should have released when I told you to get new drivers and you went out and bought a new video card instead.
Quote:You know it really does annoy me posts like above. The line 'if u spend more time to learn' Please friend, u dont know how much time i spend learning torque.
You've been a member since November 3rd, 2004. Farcry, Everquest 2 (which you are using as your "standard" to compare TGE against) took dozens and dozens of people years to accomplish what they did.
All I am saying by my post above is that things are not going to come to you in a month, or even 6 months, or even a year to even come close to that level of performance, and also that if someone gives advice, you may want to take it instead of posting in another forum looking for different advice to the same question. It was insulting to me that you blew off my continued attempts to help you out, ignored my advice, and then proceeded to ask elsewhere.
#12
Stevie if you aim for a game like FarCry then get the engine they used or buy the Speedtree license.
12/16/2004 (5:55 am)
I agree there Stephen !Stevie if you aim for a game like FarCry then get the engine they used or buy the Speedtree license.
#13
Look, i didnt realise i had duplicated the same thread and i will tell u why. When i originally typed the message in on the other forumn - my pc was telling me that the link had crashed... so in affect i was convinced it hadnt been posted. I rebooted my machine, then in the meanwhile thought....hmmm i will try TSE and see what speeds i get - and this is why i then posted my thread on the TSE forumn.
So as u can see i didnt intentially post the thread twice. Please people,, allow others to make mistakes, especially newbies, but dont jump down there throats when something is posted twice, or doesnt seem right.
As to the fact of the 5700, to be honest this thread didnt make my mind up to replcae this graphics card - i was having major problems with it anyway. I have listened to all posts and i greatly apreciate the contribution. I am not just a newbie who expects miracles out of torque. I know it will take 2 yeras probably for my simple game to be realised. The reason i barked a bit, is because it does seem as general in these forumns, that it is okay for people to make statements about how newbies arnt searchin te forumns right, or doing there homework, when in effect most newbies probably are trying really hard to get to grips with torque, but i see constant reminders from long standing members here - all telling newbiews how they should be searching more, looking more, learning more.
I cant squeeze any more hours into a day when learning this language. I spent 2 years learning blitz basic and db pro inside out, and now i am here with torque. And i hope that i will be with it for a very long time. Please dont generalise newbies - i am probably putting in more man hours than most users in learning torque.
I dont mean to be discourteous to people or rude, but i am one who will respond to threads i see as being a little defensive. I have seen too many newbies on these forumns, that seem to apologise all the time, when a responce has come back to there thread saying....'if u take the time to learn.....' - then the newbie feels he has to apologise...
Please let us all get on here. It is far more apropriate to type a thread of help, than a long SA about what a newbie should be doing
Billy, Stepehen, james and all others - i do value your help and u have helped me imensely over the past few days... lets just all be friends here... YES?
12/16/2004 (6:11 am)
Why is everyone so defensive on these forumns. It seems if u make a mistake, or duplicata a thread, or..... etc etc... people moan.Look, i didnt realise i had duplicated the same thread and i will tell u why. When i originally typed the message in on the other forumn - my pc was telling me that the link had crashed... so in affect i was convinced it hadnt been posted. I rebooted my machine, then in the meanwhile thought....hmmm i will try TSE and see what speeds i get - and this is why i then posted my thread on the TSE forumn.
So as u can see i didnt intentially post the thread twice. Please people,, allow others to make mistakes, especially newbies, but dont jump down there throats when something is posted twice, or doesnt seem right.
As to the fact of the 5700, to be honest this thread didnt make my mind up to replcae this graphics card - i was having major problems with it anyway. I have listened to all posts and i greatly apreciate the contribution. I am not just a newbie who expects miracles out of torque. I know it will take 2 yeras probably for my simple game to be realised. The reason i barked a bit, is because it does seem as general in these forumns, that it is okay for people to make statements about how newbies arnt searchin te forumns right, or doing there homework, when in effect most newbies probably are trying really hard to get to grips with torque, but i see constant reminders from long standing members here - all telling newbiews how they should be searching more, looking more, learning more.
I cant squeeze any more hours into a day when learning this language. I spent 2 years learning blitz basic and db pro inside out, and now i am here with torque. And i hope that i will be with it for a very long time. Please dont generalise newbies - i am probably putting in more man hours than most users in learning torque.
I dont mean to be discourteous to people or rude, but i am one who will respond to threads i see as being a little defensive. I have seen too many newbies on these forumns, that seem to apologise all the time, when a responce has come back to there thread saying....'if u take the time to learn.....' - then the newbie feels he has to apologise...
Please let us all get on here. It is far more apropriate to type a thread of help, than a long SA about what a newbie should be doing
Billy, Stepehen, james and all others - i do value your help and u have helped me imensely over the past few days... lets just all be friends here... YES?
#14
12/16/2004 (6:16 am)
CHARLIE - THankyou oh Thankyou - u have seen my point of view. If all users take a look at the getting started threads especially here on the forumn, you will see time and time again - that newbiews are slated - and the long standing members here - seem to be doing the slating - but cos they all have the same viewpoint - its ME who is wrong!!!! Nice Charlie for u to share my viewpoint 
#15
though please take into consideration, the way you posted it did come across a bit like
"look how well these engines work and see how slow TGE is"... even if you didn't mean it as such, it did come accross a bit like that.
A lot of people try TGE and quickly dismiss it as unfinished, flawed, and weak... as I'm sure you've seen in your time here.
and also a suggestion that has already been stated is looking into lighting... detail levels... texturing... also if you have any environmental effects, that can kill it...
I know LOD and texturing makes a HUGE difference, especially if you have a lot of close buildings with further LOD range settings, then they all will kick in higher detail levels close, might need to adjust things...
good question though, always a good idea to increase performance...
please don't get the wrong impression of some people here, they are all good people, just a bit defensive because quite often they need to be...
rofl in fact at my college (going for game design - in the first class through the program)... I guess TGE finally passed on to some other classes... talked with an instructor about TGE and asked his impressions on it, he said it is "unfinished, limited, colissions issues"... then he stated how he saw students running in water and nothing happend, just running on the bottom
I had a huge internal laugh (really one setting is too complicated for these students to understand, lol)...
but I didn't say anything, It just gives me more of an advantage over them.
12/16/2004 (6:55 am)
Everyone here is a bit defensive... though for good reason... unfortunately it seems you were incorrectly categorized as a "complaining newbie"...though please take into consideration, the way you posted it did come across a bit like
"look how well these engines work and see how slow TGE is"... even if you didn't mean it as such, it did come accross a bit like that.
A lot of people try TGE and quickly dismiss it as unfinished, flawed, and weak... as I'm sure you've seen in your time here.
and also a suggestion that has already been stated is looking into lighting... detail levels... texturing... also if you have any environmental effects, that can kill it...
I know LOD and texturing makes a HUGE difference, especially if you have a lot of close buildings with further LOD range settings, then they all will kick in higher detail levels close, might need to adjust things...
good question though, always a good idea to increase performance...
please don't get the wrong impression of some people here, they are all good people, just a bit defensive because quite often they need to be...
rofl in fact at my college (going for game design - in the first class through the program)... I guess TGE finally passed on to some other classes... talked with an instructor about TGE and asked his impressions on it, he said it is "unfinished, limited, colissions issues"... then he stated how he saw students running in water and nothing happend, just running on the bottom
I had a huge internal laugh (really one setting is too complicated for these students to understand, lol)...
but I didn't say anything, It just gives me more of an advantage over them.
#16
while in TGE you just get some basic objects, everything can be tweaked more
12/16/2004 (6:56 am)
Also remember... when playing EQ 2 etc etc... they have content generated and tweaked over a long time... not just the engine tweakswhile in TGE you just get some basic objects, everything can be tweaked more
#17
I dont think any of us are rude or defensive.
You must understand all older guys that still helping in the forums do this this to help people out.
We are not any experts or something ,we are indies like you are.
You talk about trees ,but i would be very happy if i hade the dynamic lights that the unreal engine have.
But Torque dont have the lights so i hade to learn how to use the light functions in torque.
What we tried todo was only give you some hints how to improve the framerate.
We are not wizzards or something :)
12/16/2004 (6:58 am)
@StevieI dont think any of us are rude or defensive.
You must understand all older guys that still helping in the forums do this this to help people out.
We are not any experts or something ,we are indies like you are.
You talk about trees ,but i would be very happy if i hade the dynamic lights that the unreal engine have.
But Torque dont have the lights so i hade to learn how to use the light functions in torque.
What we tried todo was only give you some hints how to improve the framerate.
We are not wizzards or something :)
#18
No probs billy - as i say mate - i just want to get a long here with everyone.
One question i would like some advice on though. I still have this 9800 SE unopened. Is there much difference between this and the pro version, or indeed should i try to get one of the x800's. ?
I have done loads of research all day today as to answering these questions, but moreover it would be much better if someones who is actually using TGE with one of these cards could help me out here
Cheers
Steve
12/16/2004 (7:01 am)
Sure, we are all wizards - we are trying to make amazin games!!!!No probs billy - as i say mate - i just want to get a long here with everyone.
One question i would like some advice on though. I still have this 9800 SE unopened. Is there much difference between this and the pro version, or indeed should i try to get one of the x800's. ?
I have done loads of research all day today as to answering these questions, but moreover it would be much better if someones who is actually using TGE with one of these cards could help me out here
Cheers
Steve
#19
I do still think that you probably have compounded problems--both driver for your video card, as well as possibly issues with the shape itself. While most people focus on poly count as a measurement of performance impact, a lot of people have found that it is only one of the aspects of optimizing performance...and that other "minor" areas (such as texture size, number of textures, etc.) can cause huge and unexpected performance hits.
Edit: Alas, I don't know much about the 9800, sorry. When I selected my new video card for my brand new dev platform, I basically did searches in the forums for "6800", etc....a terribly inefficient way to see how people like various card types, but it was the best I solution I could see.
12/16/2004 (7:05 am)
@Stevie--fair enough, and I apologize if I over-reacted, but it was a bit frustrating :)I do still think that you probably have compounded problems--both driver for your video card, as well as possibly issues with the shape itself. While most people focus on poly count as a measurement of performance impact, a lot of people have found that it is only one of the aspects of optimizing performance...and that other "minor" areas (such as texture size, number of textures, etc.) can cause huge and unexpected performance hits.
Edit: Alas, I don't know much about the 9800, sorry. When I selected my new video card for my brand new dev platform, I basically did searches in the forums for "6800", etc....a terribly inefficient way to see how people like various card types, but it was the best I solution I could see.
Torque Owner J. Alan Atherton