EA + NFL = Monopoly

#41 Can we please get some facts straight about this?

Quote:

"ESPN 2k5 killed EA's Madden in every magazine review out there."

Ajari Wilson

Quote:

"Instead of competing with Sega/others by actually trying to make a better game, they legally took Sega and everyone else completely from the market...how low"

Alan Johnson

I would like to see all of this evidence that ESPN 2K5 was a hands down better game than Madden 2K5. Almost every review I have read has said that ESPN came close but Madden was the superior game. ESPN got a lot of mileage out of its $20 price tag, a gimmick they used to gain fans, but something they probably won't continue in the future.

This notion that EA is some how the devil for grabbing an exclusive NFL license is preposterous. No game producer is out there to further the genre, or take gaming to the next level, that is unless it betters their position to make money off of the product. Nor do they have any incentive to make sure that the market is perfectly competitive. This holier than thou attitude is either really naive, or just sickening because you all know that if Sega had gotten the exclusive NFL license, they would have flipped EA and every other game producer the dirty bird and dropped their pants and mooned everyone faster than you can say Randy Moss.

All of this crying and lamentation sounds so much like heartsick fan boys of ESPN football who, in their blind devotion to one product, can't stand to see their team get waxed by the competition. Bottom line: EA produced the better football game, saw that the competition was right on their arse, took the necessary steps to ensure that they stayed on top. If anyone else was in their position they would do the same thing.

P.S.

Expect EA to learn a lot from Sega and put out another exceptional product next year.

#42 EA has also secured an exclusive deal with the Arena Football League.

I guess they're serious about being the only licensed football game around.

#43

Quote:I would like to see all of this evidence that ESPN 2K5 was a hands down better game than Madden 2K5. Almost every review I have read has said that ESPN came close but Madden was the superior game. ESPN got a lot of mileage out of its $20 price tag, a gimmick they used to gain fans, but something they probably won't continue in the future.

That's just the thing...do you not realize you actually just went against EA? If EA had such a strong hold on the market, why did they need to go monopolistic on us and deny any other developers the right to make games to compete with Madden? Why couldn't they, since their game was 'superior', just let the market buy the better game, because evidently, as you stated, a majority of them liked EA's game more, and therefore would buy Madden, while the minority would buy the ESPN and other NFL games?

#44 Let me put this in simpler terms for you. Let us say that I hold 80% of a market and you hold 20%. We release our yearly product and yours is almost as good as mine, but not quite. The result of your efforts though is that you gain 40% of the market. I decide that, while I can make a product that more than competes with yours, you have some innovative ways of doing things that I can probably learn from.

In order to take back my 20% of the market I use a technique that is both legal and available to the both of us, in this case an exclusive license, while at the same time giving my customers similar things to those that they found appealing in your product. Oh, one more thing, all the while you are trying to do the same thing to me.

EA did not deny any other developer the right to make games that compete with Madden. They may have secured the exclusive rights to the NFL license, but there is nothing stopping Sega or anyone else the right to make a high quality football game that can compete with what EA puts out. For almost everyone I've talked to, aside from Madden, their fondest sports gaming experiences came from games that had no professional league license. Baseball Stars anyone?

#45

Quote:In order to take back my 20% of the market I use a technique that is both legal and available to the both of us, in this case an exclusive license, while at the same time giving my customers similar things to those that they found appealing in your product. Oh, one more thing, all the while you are trying to do the same thing to me.

It may be just me, but I dont think we are debating the legality of their actions. Yes it was a good move financially and from a business standpoint. However, the fact that they decided to compete against others in the gaming industry (a [what should be at least] artistic media market) through business negotiations. Instead of trying to win back the market by negating all chance that another NFL-using title is released, they could do so in more honorable means: actually trying to make a game that is not just better than the rest, but so much greater of a game, that they gain back the market.

#46 Hehehhe ... I like the Randy Moss reference ... very timely ;)

#47

Quote:Instead of trying to win back the market by negating all chance that another NFL-using title is released, they could do so in more honorable means: actually trying to make a game that is not just better than the rest, but so much greater of a game, that they gain back the market.

The problem with your argument Alan is that you are assuming EA won't. Madden has improved year after year and there isn't any reason to assume that they won't the next time. EA has faced competition before and always seems to come out on top. It is true that EA has rested on their laurels a bit, but that's because there hasn't been any real competition for a long time, and it seems they have been content improving and tweaking the same game for a few years now.

Sega produced an amazing football game and then threw a sucker punch and sold it for $20. No one called that dishonorable. Why couldn't they just do the right thing and compete in the artistic gaming market through the expression of their game and not through business negotiations with the customer? The game was superior, wasn't it?

All EA did was throw a sucker punch right back. "You wanna release a football game for $20? Fine, I'll lower my price too and buy out your license. Your move Sega." FWIW, I'm a long time Madden player, but I'm an even longer console Football player. Who can forget the Pro T Qb Waggle from Tecmo Bowl? I think ESPN football kicked arse. There are things in that game that I wish were in Madden. I own both games and I can honestly say that Madden just edges out ESPN. Personally, I have wanted a generic football game for a long time, so for me the EA maneuver will probably be a blessing.

#48

Quote:Sega produced an amazing football game and then threw a sucker punch and sold it for $20. No one called that dishonorable. Why couldn't they just do the right thing and compete in the artistic gaming market through the expression of their game and not through business negotiations with the customer? The game was superior, wasn't it?

I don't see how selling for a lower price is dishonerable (it might be a cheap trick), but it does not effect other developers in their ability to create games, unlike denying their right to a game license.

EDIT:

Basically it falls down to this: EA wants to be the best. Now, because of their legal dealings with the NFL, the own all of the market in NFL-licensed games. If they dominated the market by simple quality in their game and fans' devotion to them, they could also own the market. However, in the former, and current, situation, EA could release the worst game ever, and still own the market because of a technicality, not because of their artistic worth as a developer.

#49 They did dominate in the quality of their game and artistic worth as a developer. They just simply secured an exclusive license to boot. Also, don't downplay lowering the price on a product below the market clearing price as a tactic to hurt the competition. Selling a $50 game for $20 is just as dishonorable, though I don't believe this is an issue of honor, as grabbing an exclusive license.

What you don't seem to understand is that the market is not for NFL licensed games. The market is for football games. The NFL license is just another feature like online play and training camp. If EA produces a crappy football game with an NFL license, then yes they will dominate in NFL licensed football games sold, but they will lose out in the broader football market. People will not buy a crappy football game just to be Peyton Manning.

One other thing about the "artistic worth" of the developers. The game designers are not the game producers. Business decisions such as marketing and licensing are not made by the guys at Tiburon or anyone else who contributes to the design of the game. They are going to produce the best game they can regardless of what business decisions are made. I'm sure you didn't hear this at the Tiburon offices, "Whew. Those guys over at Sega were kicking our butts. They are so much better than us. I'm sure glad EA secured that exclusive license. Now we don't have to work as hard, infact, lets take the year off and re-release Madden 2000. What are the fans gonna do, buy someone elses NFL game? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!"

#50 Perhaps gamers should stop caring about trademark players and start caring about the games themselves. Of course, the NFL is really just a big conglomeration of names to sell products anyway, but people are generally shallow. The NFL itself is extremely overrated IMO, and if people were just a little bit smarter, they would look for less profit mongering alternatives.

#51 The problem with the theory about killing the competition (as in ESPN 2k5) is that the NFL deal was in the making for the past couple years : not months, not weeks, YEARS !!
As I said earlier, everything points toward the NFL initiating this deal.
Now, NBA (thank god they said no), MLB, etc. that's another story...

#52 @Ben McDougall. Game Informer magazine gave ESPN a 9.5 and Madden a 9.3. Gamespot.com gave ESPN a 9.2 and Madden a 9.0. There were things said like, "Maddens game is pretty much the same exact thing as last year" and "Maddens PS2 1st design principals really hurt the visuals on Xbox and the cube". "ESPN's presentation and commentary is superior" And most importantly the players aren't running around on rollerskates or on ice like they do in Madden. There are reviews which gave Madden the nod as well But I honestly don't see how. I've played them both as well.

For you to say you actually want to play a generic football title just for the sake of it being generic is rediculous to me. When I play a football game, I want to emulate the real life players in their real life stadiums and with thier real life teams. In real football I know who is going to make the catch and who may not. I know who to double cover and who has the best run defence. When you have a game full of fictional characters, all of this is out the window. If I'm playing a football "simulation" then I want it to be just that. If I want a fun and light hearted football game where I don't really care who is who and don't care about representing my city's team online, I'll play something off the wall and arcade like Blitz or NFL Street. Call me shallow or whatever you want. I'm not playing a game as the San Diego Thunder Storms or the Atlanta Roosters with John Doe as QB, and I assure you that I am not the only one who feels this way. EA DID in fact take away EVERYBODYS right to make a quality football game. True, it's the gameplay that matters most but the names of the players and teams are just as important as good graphics. EA just reverted everyone back to 8-bit in this department.

And with the competition now gone, expect EA to hash out the same thing they've been squirting out for the last 3 or 4 years because theyre already doing it. '07 may be a big improvement graphics wise because it'll be on a new generation of systems but don't expect much of anything new except from what ESPN has already done. Improved commentary and a better crowd and things like that. The players are still going to slip around the field like professional ice skaters. Maybe in next year's Madden you'll be able to customize your players with *bling bling* or some kind of superficial upgrade like most of their games tend to be doing now days.

This whole NFL thing is a smart business move, but along with thier employee situation it doesn't put EA in a good light. But who cares about company image and employee's well being when your making all this money and taking over the world. Right?
-Ajari-

Edit: Any sequel that has improvments over last years version that can be released as downloadable content or an expansion pack shouldn't be $50. They didn't re-build every player model, every stadium, every line of code, every sound, and every animation from the ground up. Both Madden '05 and ESPN '05 are only worth $20 or $30. I paid full price for it last year. This is just an upgrade.

#53 VGA 2004 Winners
BEST SPORTS GAME
Madden NFL 2005 (Electronic Arts)

IGN
Madden 2005 9.5
ESPN 2K5 9.3

and if you watch the video review, they say Madden is better, but not by much.

UGO
Madden 2005 A
ESPN 2K5 A-

including the comment "Catching up to Madden, but not there yet."

GamePro
Madden 2005 5.0
ESPN 2K5 5.0

including the comment "Even in the face of stiff competition, Madden NFL maintains its winning tradition."

PS2 GameZone
Madden 2005 9.3
ESPN 9.3

I'm not sure what EGM's comparison was, but I'm pretty sure Madden edged out ESPN there too.

So Ajari, your claim that ESPN crushed Madden in all the reviews doesn't really hold up in the light of the facts. Oh wait, I forgot that you managed to discount all of the evidence I just presented by the brilliantly tactical statement, " There are reviews which gave Madden the nod as well But I honestly don't see how. I've played them both as well." I guess the only real credibility in the gaming community comes from GameInformer and Gamespot. Certainly not those IGN hacks.

As far as generic football, I like it. Do you play the franchise mode in any of these games? What happens when the current NFL players retire? Do you stop playing? Have you ever created your own team? I enjoy the building of an organization, scouting talent, and developing players. There is a certain charm in a league where my friends and I have made our own teams and put our own "signatures" into them. We had so much fun playing all of the old sports games that didn't have any licenses. That is something I would like to revisit. I bet there are a ton of people out there who would agree with me.

I don't have a problem with people preferring ESPN over Madden, or dismay over EA getting an exclusive license. The problem is statements like this,

"EA DID in fact take away EVERYBODYS right to make a quality football game."

and

"EA just reverted everyone back to 8-bit in this department."

These are both fallacious and irresponsible. Neither are true. Add to that the unsubstantiated claims that Madden 2005 was some second rate hack job and ESPN 2k5 was a paragon of football purity that clearly outshined the latter and can only be considered in the same breath through some sort of mental error.

It sounds like so much whining and crying and promotes the notion that somehow one company is the great Satan while everyone else is being oppressed. Oh wait, that's right, only EA is out to make money and all the other companies subscribe to the lofty goal promoting the greater good of the gaming community, even if it is at their own expense. The business practices of EA are no different than any other game producer out there. If you want to keep your moral high ground, I suggest you stop playing games altogether.

#54 Oh, one more thing. I do expect EA to hash out the same thing they've been squirting out for the last 3 or 4 years. The best football game on the market.

#55

Quote:So Ajari, your claim that ESPN crushed Madden in all the reviews doesn't really hold up in the light of the facts.

Again, you try and change the subject. We were discussing what we think about EA's actions, while you go into a near-flame war (you may say"oh but I use proper grammar and whatnot." that doesn't matter, your purpose is still the same) about whose game is better. Instead this is about EA buying the full license-rights to NFL.

What I and Ajari are trying to say is, EA, whether or not they had the 'best NFL game ever' or not, they had it because of competition. Now that they have no more in the NFL-license/NFL-sim genre, they have no reason to try to make it better to keep people interested and buying its sequels, loyal fans are just that. This lack of challenge and motivation is nearly the same reason movie sequels to terribly in regards to the first in the series; the makers have already produced a great movie that everyone loves, and they almost feel no challenge [much like EA] to make a great product, because the series is already famous. The Matrix was a good example of this kind of 'riding on fame' attempt. The first was the most popular, because before it came out, they had no idea of its success, however after the first, they seemed to lose that desire to make the best movie possible, because they knew that fans of the original would go see it, even if its just once per person.

Getting rid of competition just usually leads to lackluster titles...
..and

Quote:I do expect EA to hash out the same thing they've been squirting out for the last 3 or 4 years. The best football game on the market.

was, by far, one of the cheesiest comebacks as well as displays of fanboy-ism that I've ever seen.

#56

Quote:Again, you try and change the subject. We were discussing what we think about EA's actions, while you go into a near-flame war (you may say"oh but I use proper grammar and whatnot." that doesn't matter, your purpose is still the same) about whose game is better. Instead this is about EA buying the full license-rights to NFL.

I change the subject on nothing. Your discussions on EA's business practices were based on the premise that EA can/will not produce a quality game. Let me quote you guys again.

Ajari wrote:

Quote:ESPN 2k5 killed EA's Madden in every magazine review out there.

At best this is a gross exaggeration, at worst a down-right lie. I don't know Ajari, so I won't go so far as to call him a liar. Either way, it is irresponsible.

Alan Johnson wrote:

Quote:Instead of competing with Sega/others by actually trying to make a better game, they legally took Sega and everyone else completely from the market.

and

Quote: However, the fact that they decided to compete against others in the gaming industry (a [what should be at least] artistic media market) through business negotiations.

You conveniently deny the fact that Madden has been, including this year, the best football game on the market. ESPN get its kudos, but it was not the dominant game as you guys imply. Madden still out sold ESPN even with a $30 price gap. If ESPN was hands down the superior game, why was that so? If being the best doesn't prove you can compete based on your value as a developer than I don't know what you think does. So no, I did not start a flame war on which game was better. What I did do was call B.S. on you two and punch holes in the basis for your arguments.

Believe me, the value of competition is not lost on me. I do question your notion of where the competition lays. I'm not saying the loss of an NFL license won't hurt the competition in sales, but are you telling me that if Sega produces a game with wonderful graphics, fluid game play, Chris Berman anchored Sports center, and any other improvements they may apply, you won't buy and play it because you can't have T.O. catch passes from McNabb? Of course, you may still be able to do that, the NFLPA is a separate entity from the NFL I think. Well then, you may not be able to do it in an Eagles uniform. If that is the case, then I guess you're SOL. Also, If you think a game like that wouldn't compete with Madden, then you need to learn more about economics.

P.S.

Thanks for the compliment on my grammar. It's always nice when people notice good things about you.

#57

Quote:You conveniently deny the fact that Madden has been, including this year, the best football game on the market.

Sorry to use such a low-level-of-intelligence cliche, but What are you smoking?

How do you get "Sega and/or others made a better game than EA" out of:

Quote:Instead of competing with Sega/others by actually trying to make a better game, they legally took Sega and everyone else completely from the market.

That above means not that I was siding (I really dont care about football videogames, so it was easy for me to stay on-topic, and out of this fanboy vs fanboy rant of yours of who's got the better game) with either game, but that EA must have felt that ESPN or someone else's game was moving into their 'territory of quality' in that they, as you said, may have lost some of their market to those others. I didn't say "EA should try to make a better game, because SEGA's is giving them the beat-down in scores", but instead that "EA, since they obviously feel that they've gotten some recent competition, should try to compete with it through their game, not through a business action." For someone who is so self-righteous as yourself [at least you seem to act so], you sure like to take other's words out of context...And I didn't comment on your grammar as much as your intellect, as well as tact.

#58 Commercial Studios are bad, blah blah blah, but beyond the usual indie rhetoric...

EA Makes Plenty of good titles

MOHAA
Battle for Middle Earth
Battlefield
NFSU

Taking the NFL License is just a smart move, if you as a business are able to aquire a better way of making games, closer ties to the NFL and such, why not take that advatage and run?

*I am in no way an EA fanboy, I dont care, I just play good games(Usually not sports either).

#59 None of this matters anyway. Our right to choose is gone so EA wins anyway you look at it and their threat is terminated. Ben you named 5 reviews in favor of Madden after I named two for ESPN. I could easily go and find three more so my point can be as "valid" as yours. Chris, "a better way of making games??" "closer ties to the NFL??" Since when and how? From where I'm standing it looks like everybody else's ties have been cut and EA is in the same standings with the NFL that they, and everybody else used to be. It would be funny if their little plan bites them in the ass in five years when Microsoft or someone else out bids EA for the NFL contract.

Ben's Question: "Madden still out sold ESPN even with a $30 price gap. If ESPN was hands down the superior game, why was that so?"

Ajari's Answer: Brand recognition. Madden has been around for around 15 years, and while some years it was on top and others it wasn't, EA chose to never retire it or change the name. You can't knock down 15 years of loyalty from people growing up on a product through one great game. It takes time to break people's bias and make them try something new after they have been comfortable with one thing for a decade and a half. Had ESPN and Madden kept up this pace ESPN would have surley taken Madden in a few years. The proof is that ESPN '05 has taken a big chunk of Madden's profit already.

Fact: Xbox is superior to the PS2 in every way possible. (Graphics, Ram, CPU power, Sound capabilities, ect...) So why then does the PS2 continue to sell better than the Xbox in the US and overseas and with the same exact games on both systems? Brand recognition and stubborn die hard fans.

I'm done with this but all I wanna say is I stand by all my points earlier made. Ben have fun paying full price for your Madden '05 expansion pack, complete with roster update and their patented ice skater running game where the half backs are as agile as my little brothers '57 Buick. And when ESPN football '06 comes out, have fun playing against the Denver "Mad Cows" with their main programmer as star quarterback. lol Man it's gonna be ridiculous. I'm officially done with football games for the next 5 years. Catch me on Xbox live playing Fight Night round 2, NFSU2, (see I don't hate EA) Halo2, ESPN Baseball, Splinter Cell CT and other games that have made big improvements over the years and are worthy of the full admission price.
-Ajari-

#60 According to this article on Gamasutra, Take-Two is now trying to sow up "other leagues" ...

"According to Eibeler [President of Take-Two], the company has approached a number of sports leagues in an attempt to secure longer licensing agreements. This comes as a response to Electronic Arts' new exclusive deal with the NFL"

Sounds like there is going to be more lawsuits than games ...