Falling Through The Cracks
by Weston Tracy · in General Discussion · 11/09/2004 (12:42 pm) · 28 replies
Greetings all,
I've got a little idealistic notion that I'd like to put to the test here...with your help. If this question has been posed before, then please forgive...I don't read the forums as often as I'd like.
So the notion is (and I'm sure some of you share it as indies) if you had a truly quality game, a 'Counter Strike' or a 'Halo' sitting on your own private web site and you just told a few people about it, the quality of the game alone would propel it by word of mouth to success in the market place. Indeed the very lack of marketing and mystery of this gem in hiding might create even more buzz.
Now in conflict with this notion...I've been hearing a lot about wonderful games of extreme quality that aren't getting the attention they deserve because they don't have proper marketing.
My question to you is this... where are these games...can you help me find them? I want to see a really great game that hasn't found success!
Let me just add that I'm not just looking for great game play...if the game isn't gorgeous then it's obvious why it's being overlooked. I'm looking for the whole package...polished.
Thanks much,
Weston
weston@ffdigital.com
www.ffdigital.com
I've got a little idealistic notion that I'd like to put to the test here...with your help. If this question has been posed before, then please forgive...I don't read the forums as often as I'd like.
So the notion is (and I'm sure some of you share it as indies) if you had a truly quality game, a 'Counter Strike' or a 'Halo' sitting on your own private web site and you just told a few people about it, the quality of the game alone would propel it by word of mouth to success in the market place. Indeed the very lack of marketing and mystery of this gem in hiding might create even more buzz.
Now in conflict with this notion...I've been hearing a lot about wonderful games of extreme quality that aren't getting the attention they deserve because they don't have proper marketing.
My question to you is this... where are these games...can you help me find them? I want to see a really great game that hasn't found success!
Let me just add that I'm not just looking for great game play...if the game isn't gorgeous then it's obvious why it's being overlooked. I'm looking for the whole package...polished.
Thanks much,
Weston
weston@ffdigital.com
www.ffdigital.com
About the author
Game artist. Lover of pixels. Co-Owner and Artist for www.blackjacketgames.com
#2
11/10/2004 (1:15 pm)
Heh, I always wondered what the name of that game was, one of the first I played on the PC, and yeah, it really was mind-blowing at the time. Thanks Jay, I'll be able to sleep soundly now, finally knowing what it's called :) 
#4
It DID ( notice past tense ) stand out as a high quality mod graphics/art/sound wise even after they completely destroyed the game play, but as a game it is WAY over rated.
11/10/2004 (2:33 pm)
The problem is you see Counter Strike as a "quality game" and that is HIGHLY subjective. I has been crap since about beta 5.x ( which was sometime in 2000 - 2001 ) I can't remember.It DID ( notice past tense ) stand out as a high quality mod graphics/art/sound wise even after they completely destroyed the game play, but as a game it is WAY over rated.
#5
Thanks for the response. I agree with most of your points. There was a thread discussing why Outpost Kaloki wasn't selling earlier. Pretty interesting.
If you don't mind, can I ask how Void War is doing? And also, why isn't it available on Garage Games?
11/10/2004 (3:06 pm)
@JayThanks for the response. I agree with most of your points. There was a thread discussing why Outpost Kaloki wasn't selling earlier. Pretty interesting.
If you don't mind, can I ask how Void War is doing? And also, why isn't it available on Garage Games?
#6
The thing is - going back to the initial question - there's a heck of a lot of games out there vying for attention. TONS. You have to have a game that stands out in the crowd. Simply 'not drawing attention to oneself' ain't gonna cut it. There's already plenty of undermarketed games out there.
And in fact, the usual attitude when you see a game available that has received NO attention whatsoever is, "What's wrong with it?" People are so inundated with choices for where to spend their gaming dollar (or even use up time and bandwidth to try out for free) that they'll apply whatever filter they can to weed out anything that might not be worth their time. If nobody else is playing the game - well, that's enough to convince a lot of people that it's not worth it.
The problem is compounded in a game with a heavy multiplayer emphasis, like Void War. You need to achieve critical mass in order for it to succeed as a multiplayer game where people can easily find a game. This is hard even for major games from AAA publishers, and it's compounded as an indie.
11/10/2004 (3:57 pm)
Void War is doing okay. Not stellar or a pleasant surprise, but we had good sales the first month from a brand-new site. Things slowed down a little after that, but we're also now starting to go out to affiliate and distribution channels, and trying a few new things.The thing is - going back to the initial question - there's a heck of a lot of games out there vying for attention. TONS. You have to have a game that stands out in the crowd. Simply 'not drawing attention to oneself' ain't gonna cut it. There's already plenty of undermarketed games out there.
And in fact, the usual attitude when you see a game available that has received NO attention whatsoever is, "What's wrong with it?" People are so inundated with choices for where to spend their gaming dollar (or even use up time and bandwidth to try out for free) that they'll apply whatever filter they can to weed out anything that might not be worth their time. If nobody else is playing the game - well, that's enough to convince a lot of people that it's not worth it.
The problem is compounded in a game with a heavy multiplayer emphasis, like Void War. You need to achieve critical mass in order for it to succeed as a multiplayer game where people can easily find a game. This is hard even for major games from AAA publishers, and it's compounded as an indie.
#7
There a website full of them:
www.the-underdogs.org
11/10/2004 (4:00 pm)
<< My question to you is this... where are these games...can you help me find them? I want to see a really great game that hasn't found success! >>There a website full of them:
www.the-underdogs.org
#8
11/13/2004 (2:18 am)
Is it just different in the UK? To get stuff out here is not too difficult if your product is good. Just send it to a few magazines for review and inclusion on the cover CD's. I used to do this all the time a few years back, i guess things have changed but if your product is an 8-10 rating they will include it. 
#9
Games that I think are awesome are Bridge Construction Set, Gish (wow, two Chronic Logic games), Orbz, Think Tanks, and Marble Blast. None of these games are undiscovered, and, in fact, have provided great ROI to the developers. Of course, all of these games are published by GG, but there is a reason for that:)
Outpost Kaloki looks great, but I have not had a chance to play it yet. It looks inventive and fun. I have tried for years to get hold of the author of Action Motocross because I think that is a great game (ugly, but fun), but have not been able to connect.
Games coming soon are Mini Golf (not inventive, but extremely fun... the best MG game ever published), Zap! (extremely fun, pushes multi-player to the edge, and will be the roll out of our initial Community System back end), Rocket Bowl, dRacer, BoomBall, Extreme Dodge Ball, and Tube Twist. There are many others, but these are the closest.
Many times, we will publish a game that does not meet all of our criteria, but we like the developers behind the game or there is another game coming, or other unseen reasons. Publishing a game in the GG channel is just one small part of making a sales success of an indie game, but it can bring a lot of attention to the game, and, in the best cases, actually make a lot of money for the developer.
Now that we have the above "anchors" our goal is to start publishing more games from the GG site. More games will equal more audience, which in turn will equal more sales. Look for much more activity and fun in 2005. At some point, we will be able to answer Weston's question with a positive answer.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
11/13/2004 (5:25 pm)
I don't think there are any Halo's or Counter Strikes that haven't been discovered. I also don't see many people saying that is the case. When we started GG, there were very few concrete examples of indie or shareware games being successful. However, the last few years have seen quite a few games (and companies) break out from the pack. What I am looking for to publish in the GG channel are more creative games that fall somewhere between "casual" and full on AAA. In fact, this is what my entire presentation at IGC was all about.Games that I think are awesome are Bridge Construction Set, Gish (wow, two Chronic Logic games), Orbz, Think Tanks, and Marble Blast. None of these games are undiscovered, and, in fact, have provided great ROI to the developers. Of course, all of these games are published by GG, but there is a reason for that:)
Outpost Kaloki looks great, but I have not had a chance to play it yet. It looks inventive and fun. I have tried for years to get hold of the author of Action Motocross because I think that is a great game (ugly, but fun), but have not been able to connect.
Games coming soon are Mini Golf (not inventive, but extremely fun... the best MG game ever published), Zap! (extremely fun, pushes multi-player to the edge, and will be the roll out of our initial Community System back end), Rocket Bowl, dRacer, BoomBall, Extreme Dodge Ball, and Tube Twist. There are many others, but these are the closest.
Many times, we will publish a game that does not meet all of our criteria, but we like the developers behind the game or there is another game coming, or other unseen reasons. Publishing a game in the GG channel is just one small part of making a sales success of an indie game, but it can bring a lot of attention to the game, and, in the best cases, actually make a lot of money for the developer.
Now that we have the above "anchors" our goal is to start publishing more games from the GG site. More games will equal more audience, which in turn will equal more sales. Look for much more activity and fun in 2005. At some point, we will be able to answer Weston's question with a positive answer.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
#10
"What I am looking for to publish in the GG channel are more creative games that fall somewhere between "casual" and full on AAA. In fact, this is what my entire presentation at IGC was all about."
After stumbling upon this post I felt compelled to relpy with my thoughts and concerns.
I recently attended The IGC in oregon, at which I also attened Jeff Tunnell's presentation on game design. I found his presentation to be very captivating, I felt a sense of excitement when hearing his excitement about game design. As a matter of fact I found most of the presentations to be very interesting and imformative.
Then "reality" sets in. I took a step back and looked at the bigger picture. I had to ask myself "what is really going on here???" Yes I enjoyed the IGC very much (here comes the BIG...) but, as they say "looks" can be decieving. When I listened to Jeff speek about game design, he had a passion in his voice like he was really interested and excited about designing games. I would even go as far as to say that he was, inspiring. The sad fact of the matter is that when the spotlight had faded and the microphone put down, the impression I got from Jeff Tunnell, was one of uninterest. Maybe it was just me but first impressions mean alot and I will tell all of you right now that GG is very UNINTERESTED in your game, let alone your game ideas. I don't think Jeff Tunnell even looked at any of the games brought to the IGC. I am willing to bet that, and there were 23 I believe, Jeff Tunnell could not name 5 of them that are not the ones previously mentioned his above post. Maybe I am overreacting but I can tell you all now that Jeff Tunnell and Jay Moore were unaccesable and extremely COLD when approached at the IGC. Yeah I know I'm not some big wig exec with a nice suit and a wallet full or 20$ words, but it would have been nice to see them show the least bit of interest in the people who put their hard earned money and time into Torque, not to mention fly across the country, rent a car, hotel and pay to attent the IGC!
Jeff Tunnell:"Many times, we will publish a game that does not meet all of our criteria, but we like the developers behind the game or there is another game coming, or other unseen reasons."
I don't see how this can be true if you wont even take 2 mins out of a 3 day weekend to look at a developer's project and meet the team that worked on it. My team sent out numerous emails asking for information on the prerequosets for bringing a game demo to the IGC. We got no reply. Then we attend the IGC and in the Q and A session at the very end of the third day they accuse the attendees of not notifing them on weather or not they would bring a Demo. Not to mention the very INSULTING remarks made by Jay Moore in the closing session. "Single player games make money?" he replied in a very sarcastic, you have no idea what you are talking about, tone to someone who stated that single player games make money too. Gish, as far as I know is primaraly a singleplayer game. I guess its not making any money for GG.
11/15/2004 (6:07 pm)
Jeff Tunnell: "What I am looking for to publish in the GG channel are more creative games that fall somewhere between "casual" and full on AAA. In fact, this is what my entire presentation at IGC was all about."
After stumbling upon this post I felt compelled to relpy with my thoughts and concerns.
I recently attended The IGC in oregon, at which I also attened Jeff Tunnell's presentation on game design. I found his presentation to be very captivating, I felt a sense of excitement when hearing his excitement about game design. As a matter of fact I found most of the presentations to be very interesting and imformative.
Then "reality" sets in. I took a step back and looked at the bigger picture. I had to ask myself "what is really going on here???" Yes I enjoyed the IGC very much (here comes the BIG...) but, as they say "looks" can be decieving. When I listened to Jeff speek about game design, he had a passion in his voice like he was really interested and excited about designing games. I would even go as far as to say that he was, inspiring. The sad fact of the matter is that when the spotlight had faded and the microphone put down, the impression I got from Jeff Tunnell, was one of uninterest. Maybe it was just me but first impressions mean alot and I will tell all of you right now that GG is very UNINTERESTED in your game, let alone your game ideas. I don't think Jeff Tunnell even looked at any of the games brought to the IGC. I am willing to bet that, and there were 23 I believe, Jeff Tunnell could not name 5 of them that are not the ones previously mentioned his above post. Maybe I am overreacting but I can tell you all now that Jeff Tunnell and Jay Moore were unaccesable and extremely COLD when approached at the IGC. Yeah I know I'm not some big wig exec with a nice suit and a wallet full or 20$ words, but it would have been nice to see them show the least bit of interest in the people who put their hard earned money and time into Torque, not to mention fly across the country, rent a car, hotel and pay to attent the IGC!
Jeff Tunnell:"Many times, we will publish a game that does not meet all of our criteria, but we like the developers behind the game or there is another game coming, or other unseen reasons."
I don't see how this can be true if you wont even take 2 mins out of a 3 day weekend to look at a developer's project and meet the team that worked on it. My team sent out numerous emails asking for information on the prerequosets for bringing a game demo to the IGC. We got no reply. Then we attend the IGC and in the Q and A session at the very end of the third day they accuse the attendees of not notifing them on weather or not they would bring a Demo. Not to mention the very INSULTING remarks made by Jay Moore in the closing session. "Single player games make money?" he replied in a very sarcastic, you have no idea what you are talking about, tone to someone who stated that single player games make money too. Gish, as far as I know is primaraly a singleplayer game. I guess its not making any money for GG.
#11
Now for the thing that they don't want you to know. GG is primaraly interested in selling Torque and torque related products off of the GG site. NOT games. They want "new" and "inovative" games made so that they can either contract or hire these people to enhance the torque engine. Just go to the main page of the site.
www.garagegames.com
What does it seem like they are interested in to you?
Jeff Tunnell:"Games that I think are awesome are Bridge Construction Set, Gish (wow, two Chronic Logic games), Orbz, Think Tanks, and Marble Blast. None of these games are undiscovered, and, in fact, have provided great ROI to the developers. Of course, all of these games are published by GG, but there is a reason for that:)"
They want potential developers to attend a "Independent Games Conference" which is just sheepes clothing for a Lan party promoting Multiplayer games and confrences on programs that are currently in development which will be SOON available for YOU to PURCHASE on this site.
Yes I am very pleased with the content that is available on this site for indie developers and I believe that this is one of if not the best place to start in this industry...
but I also believe from my impressions from the IGC that GG is NOT interested in ANY product that they believe will not be of use in the further development TGE. Do not let them con you into thinking they will publish any game that is new or inovative because they wouldnt know if it was, because they wont even take the time to look at it when you put it right in front of their eyes.
Jeff Tunnell: "I don't think there are any Halo's or Counter Strikes that haven't been discovered."
What about the next Puzzle Fighter???
11/15/2004 (6:22 pm)
Sorry if I seem jaded and angry but, I am. I think what GG is doing for the Indie game community is great and I appreciate all the hard work they have done in making a great package that basically anyone can use for a very low price.On the other hand though don't let them fool you into believing that if you have a really creative and interesting game that they will look at it because its NOT true. We showed our demo to two of the members of GG who will remain unnamed. Both of them who seemed really excited about our project told us that we should show it to Jeff. Jeff had no interest/time in my team or our project. On numerous occasins in which I TRIED to introduce myself to him, he couldnt be bothered with me. I even asked him if he had seen our game yet. He said no and quickly walked away from me UNINTERESTED. I could go on but I think you all get the point here.Now for the thing that they don't want you to know. GG is primaraly interested in selling Torque and torque related products off of the GG site. NOT games. They want "new" and "inovative" games made so that they can either contract or hire these people to enhance the torque engine. Just go to the main page of the site.
www.garagegames.com
What does it seem like they are interested in to you?
Jeff Tunnell:"Games that I think are awesome are Bridge Construction Set, Gish (wow, two Chronic Logic games), Orbz, Think Tanks, and Marble Blast. None of these games are undiscovered, and, in fact, have provided great ROI to the developers. Of course, all of these games are published by GG, but there is a reason for that:)"
They want potential developers to attend a "Independent Games Conference" which is just sheepes clothing for a Lan party promoting Multiplayer games and confrences on programs that are currently in development which will be SOON available for YOU to PURCHASE on this site.
Yes I am very pleased with the content that is available on this site for indie developers and I believe that this is one of if not the best place to start in this industry...
but I also believe from my impressions from the IGC that GG is NOT interested in ANY product that they believe will not be of use in the further development TGE. Do not let them con you into thinking they will publish any game that is new or inovative because they wouldnt know if it was, because they wont even take the time to look at it when you put it right in front of their eyes.
Jeff Tunnell: "I don't think there are any Halo's or Counter Strikes that haven't been discovered."
What about the next Puzzle Fighter???
#12
11/15/2004 (6:24 pm)
Sorry DP
#13
You are also an extreme coward. You can see everyting about me, my company, even our source code. Yet, you don't even have the courage to post under your real name, or let everybody in the community see for themselves whether your game is good or not.
11/15/2004 (6:26 pm)
@Bill (sure, that is a real name): This attack so unfair and totally untrue that I am not even going to reply. I am shaking as I type this, and am having a very hard time not just expressing anger, hurt, and resentment. You try putting on a conference that actually loses a tremendous amount of money that has 250 people show up, all of which want a piece of you, and see if you can reply to everybody's requests. To say that I am not interested in games is SO far off base that I don't know how to respond.You are also an extreme coward. You can see everyting about me, my company, even our source code. Yet, you don't even have the courage to post under your real name, or let everybody in the community see for themselves whether your game is good or not.
#14
@Bill: feelings hurt, THE biggest thing about the conference was showing your game to Jeff and others at GG. Didn't happen, and it was probably the single reason you/your team actually went.
@Jeff: craziest, busiest weekend on record for you I bet, and everyone knew who you were and wanted a piece of you, and all you wanted was to make sure the conference was going well.
@Both of you: Take a breather, fix the problem, not the blame! It could very well be that the game is better than sex and sliced bread put together (ewww, don't picture that, please!), or it could be that it needs a TON of improvement. Either way, I would suggest it's in your mutual best interest to take care of business after forgiving both the interpreted snub at the conference, and the tone/statements in this thread...
Just my 2 cents.
11/15/2004 (6:50 pm)
Not my job to be a moderator or anything, but from an outsider's perspective:@Bill: feelings hurt, THE biggest thing about the conference was showing your game to Jeff and others at GG. Didn't happen, and it was probably the single reason you/your team actually went.
@Jeff: craziest, busiest weekend on record for you I bet, and everyone knew who you were and wanted a piece of you, and all you wanted was to make sure the conference was going well.
@Both of you: Take a breather, fix the problem, not the blame! It could very well be that the game is better than sex and sliced bread put together (ewww, don't picture that, please!), or it could be that it needs a TON of improvement. Either way, I would suggest it's in your mutual best interest to take care of business after forgiving both the interpreted snub at the conference, and the tone/statements in this thread...
Just my 2 cents.
#15
11/15/2004 (7:21 pm)
I really dont know what to make of this. Stephen has pretty much said it all. Attacking Jeff and GG in this way is not at all fair. This is the most unbelievable post I have ever seen on these forums. Posting under a fake name just makes it worse. I agree with Jeff. "Bill," you are a coward in the extreme.
#16
Jeff views over 1000+ game submissions a year that you never hear about varying from concept to completion, he has been in this industry for 18+ years, with multiple AAA titles in his belt and two extremely successful game companies.
Bill, it that's your real name, what do you bring to this table which gives you this omnipotent opinion on what he is doing wrong?
I'll be frank, Jeff & Jay were probably either extremely busy during IGC or your game was bad and they were too nice to tell you, neither of these are GarageGames, IGC, or Jeff & Jays fault.
As far as the Torque commercialism of IGC, maybe you forgot all the multiple track sessions, lan party, and guest speakers in between when we were shoving Torque down your throat. Friday night was the first time ever we took the liberty and courage to show off various GG products and the only reason we did so was due to popular demand and request by an overwhelming amount of community members to see what we have bene working on.
GarageGames is a business, and to survive and bring you better tools to create your indie games we need to make money. Last time I fucking checked though I still make minimum wage and I work weekends. Don't get me wrong, I'm here because I love what I do. This is the best job I've ever had and I don't mind putting in crazy hours for cheap. But trust me, no one is getting rich here off your $100.00 Torque license. If you don't like it, simply go somewhere else.
What is this "really creative and interesting game" anyhow? Was it on the IGC players choice awards? I notice you don't list it for fear of retribution. If your going to criticize the shortcomings of others don't be afraid to receive yourself, it makes you look bad.
GarageGames as also not recieved any good games in my opinion in the last year, that is why the game page is lacking and looking dusty compared to the recent technology & content improvements recentl released.
GarageGames is still a indy game publisher, but we don't publish crap, that's the simple truth. To keep in the game publishing business the game has to be FUN and CREATIVE and PROFITABLE. This is the simple truth of real life, there is no indy game utopia where everyone can put anything out and make 35 million dollars.
Did you try showing your "really creative and interesting game" to Jay or Jeff outside IGC? How hard to you pursue it? Jeff & Jay are very straight forward down to earth guys, and trust me, if you had pursued showing your game hard enough you would of known their opinion good or bad.
I'm a little less pissed as I'm wrapping this up, but don't blame your shortcomings on others is what I'm trying to get at, and take a step back into reality.
11/15/2004 (7:38 pm)
This really pisses me off.Jeff views over 1000+ game submissions a year that you never hear about varying from concept to completion, he has been in this industry for 18+ years, with multiple AAA titles in his belt and two extremely successful game companies.
Bill, it that's your real name, what do you bring to this table which gives you this omnipotent opinion on what he is doing wrong?
I'll be frank, Jeff & Jay were probably either extremely busy during IGC or your game was bad and they were too nice to tell you, neither of these are GarageGames, IGC, or Jeff & Jays fault.
As far as the Torque commercialism of IGC, maybe you forgot all the multiple track sessions, lan party, and guest speakers in between when we were shoving Torque down your throat. Friday night was the first time ever we took the liberty and courage to show off various GG products and the only reason we did so was due to popular demand and request by an overwhelming amount of community members to see what we have bene working on.
GarageGames is a business, and to survive and bring you better tools to create your indie games we need to make money. Last time I fucking checked though I still make minimum wage and I work weekends. Don't get me wrong, I'm here because I love what I do. This is the best job I've ever had and I don't mind putting in crazy hours for cheap. But trust me, no one is getting rich here off your $100.00 Torque license. If you don't like it, simply go somewhere else.
What is this "really creative and interesting game" anyhow? Was it on the IGC players choice awards? I notice you don't list it for fear of retribution. If your going to criticize the shortcomings of others don't be afraid to receive yourself, it makes you look bad.
GarageGames as also not recieved any good games in my opinion in the last year, that is why the game page is lacking and looking dusty compared to the recent technology & content improvements recentl released.
GarageGames is still a indy game publisher, but we don't publish crap, that's the simple truth. To keep in the game publishing business the game has to be FUN and CREATIVE and PROFITABLE. This is the simple truth of real life, there is no indy game utopia where everyone can put anything out and make 35 million dollars.
Did you try showing your "really creative and interesting game" to Jay or Jeff outside IGC? How hard to you pursue it? Jeff & Jay are very straight forward down to earth guys, and trust me, if you had pursued showing your game hard enough you would of known their opinion good or bad.
I'm a little less pissed as I'm wrapping this up, but don't blame your shortcomings on others is what I'm trying to get at, and take a step back into reality.
#17
NAIL -> HEAD
I know this feeling actually... Jeff was the very first person to see Minions of Mirth... I am not sure why, but I was inspired to show him, thought he would get it, love it, whatever... While working on it, we were thinking of Jeff and Garage Games quite a bit actually...
The response was very short, very disappointing, and there wasn't a single question about it.
My feelings were quite hurt and I really wondered if I was delusional...
We have since recovered and gotten some perspective :)
-J
11/15/2004 (7:47 pm)
Quote:@Bill: feelings hurt, THE biggest thing about the conference was showing your game to Jeff and others at GG. Didn't happen, and it was probably the single reason you/your team actually went.
NAIL -> HEAD
I know this feeling actually... Jeff was the very first person to see Minions of Mirth... I am not sure why, but I was inspired to show him, thought he would get it, love it, whatever... While working on it, we were thinking of Jeff and Garage Games quite a bit actually...
The response was very short, very disappointing, and there wasn't a single question about it.
My feelings were quite hurt and I really wondered if I was delusional...
We have since recovered and gotten some perspective :)
-J
#18
I played all of the games I found installed on the machines at IGC...which one was yours?
Your attack on Jeff based on your "impression" is completely uncalled for and unforgivably unproffessional. You have jumped to some terrible conclusions and instead of addressing them directly to Garage Games and Jeff (their phone number *is* on the webpage) decided to attack Jeff on a very personal level in a public and incredibly cowardly fashion.
Some days I am amazed that Jeff doesn't pack the whole thing up and say "screw you too" when he has his generosity flung into his face time and time again by the bitter, small people who can't make anything of themselves and blame him for their failings.
11/15/2004 (7:48 pm)
Bill,I played all of the games I found installed on the machines at IGC...which one was yours?
Your attack on Jeff based on your "impression" is completely uncalled for and unforgivably unproffessional. You have jumped to some terrible conclusions and instead of addressing them directly to Garage Games and Jeff (their phone number *is* on the webpage) decided to attack Jeff on a very personal level in a public and incredibly cowardly fashion.
Some days I am amazed that Jeff doesn't pack the whole thing up and say "screw you too" when he has his generosity flung into his face time and time again by the bitter, small people who can't make anything of themselves and blame him for their failings.
#19
Bill (otherwise known as the community member hiding behind Office Space): get some perspective back. Keep (politely) trying and trying, and dammit if it still doesn't work, look elsewhere for a distributor if you really think your game will launch well.
Jeff/others at GG: Don't let this one bad scene ruffle your feathers--when it comes right down to it, this is, as Kenny Wayne Sheppard likes to say, "blue on black".
11/15/2004 (7:57 pm)
Heheh...for some godly unknown reason, this thread keeps reminding me of the movie "Coyote Ugly"--remember that stack of rejection slips/returned tapes she sent to all the agents?Bill (otherwise known as the community member hiding behind Office Space): get some perspective back. Keep (politely) trying and trying, and dammit if it still doesn't work, look elsewhere for a distributor if you really think your game will launch well.
Jeff/others at GG: Don't let this one bad scene ruffle your feathers--when it comes right down to it, this is, as Kenny Wayne Sheppard likes to say, "blue on black".
#20
How can they be uninterested in people's games and ideas if they are already publishing indie games and providing an engine and tools for indie developers? Perhaps, they're just not interested in *your* idea.
Well, what do you expect? It's the engine that they are putting alot of hard, honest work into... and despite that, they are still willing to publish games that are not made with TGE.
....Very cowardly indeed.
11/15/2004 (8:08 pm)
Bill, you have taken a single personal experience and blown it way out of proportion and are now making blanket statements about what GG's interests are.Quote:I will tell all of you right now that GG is very UNINTERESTED in your game, let alone your game ideas.
How can they be uninterested in people's games and ideas if they are already publishing indie games and providing an engine and tools for indie developers? Perhaps, they're just not interested in *your* idea.
Quote:but I also believe from my impressions from the IGC that GG is NOT interested in ANY product that they believe will not be of use in the further development TGE.
Well, what do you expect? It's the engine that they are putting alot of hard, honest work into... and despite that, they are still willing to publish games that are not made with TGE.
....Very cowardly indeed.
Torque 3D Owner Jay Barnson
That being said, there are a lot that are quite nice, professional, yet are almost completely ignored. You can see a bunch of them listed over at www.gametunnel.com, which focuses on indie reviews.
I haven't played a LOT of indie games, but a couple that come to mind include:
Outpost Kaloki (I didn't make it, but I do have it for sale on my site)
There are several nice games over at Cornutopia's site:
www.treality.freeserve.co.uk/. In particular, TaskForce looks like it needs some TLC from a usability standpoint, but it's got a lot of potential.
But the bottom line is that as much as we'd like to believe that quality sells, marketing rules all. I can point to several under-appreciated AAA-quality "Best games that nobody played." Streak, Freespace 2, even Microsoft's Allegiance game (now why did I go and make a space combat game again? I can't remember...) Shoot, even Grim Fandango enjoyed a far more moderate success than it deserved, mainly due to (according to some) improper marketing and positioning.
The whole "Build it, they will come" thing only applies if you are building a baseball field in a mystical cornfield in a sentamental movie. In the rest of the world --- while it's theoretically possible you could create a surprise hit game with zero marketing effort, I expect it wouldn't just have to be "good" - it would have to be mind-blowingly good and amazingly revolutionary. And even then, you'd still need to have a marketing machine running to 'leak' that information out there.
Remember Catacomb 3D? No? Few people did. It was John Carmack's precursor to Wolfenstein 3D - from back in the Softdisk days. An early version of the mind-blowing (at the time) 3D technology about to come to PCs. But no. Wasn't until Scott Miller did his cool marketing dance for Wolfenstein that people took notice. And even that wasn't close to the amount of marketing hype that went into the far more successful Doom. There were people grousing quite a bit at the time about how id wasn't the first to do a 3D, first-person perspective game. Not by a long shot. But they had the marketing. So they get the credit for being there first.