3dstudio, Lightwave, TSE and shaders ... OH my!

#1 Your best bet would be to download the demos of each of the applications that you are thinking of investing in and seeing what they can provide. I would also recommend that you look a bit further than Torque when you decide to buy and also consider what application you can best use to also make some money on the side too in your local area.

In regards to features, I do not know Lightwave so I cannot speak for it (hopefully Lightwave Dave will be able to ) but here are some intersting features found in Max 7 that apply specificly to shaders (and as such TSE):
- Export Max material as a FX and HLSL file. This will allow you to setup and define a material more easily in Max and then export that data out into a format that you can then load into the engine without having to write custom code and fiddle with settings.
- Generate normal maps internally. New to Max 7 is a killer new tool that allows you to quickly and easily generate accurate Normal Map data.
- DirectX viewport display of shaders allows you to view shaders in your viewport in real time and even test out Max materials as DirectX options in the viewport.

Logan

#2 Thanks I downloaded the Discreet 3ds 30 day trial.

#3 Also if you dont have the money and would settle for something a little lower grade on all the features, look into Blender. Bit tricky to learn but i've seen some very impressive work done with it and its free. ;) Good for the man with no cash in his pocket liek myself.. heh

#4 Randy...Seriously...dont believe the hype.
Lightwave is much more greater than max ever was. Its have a very high quality modelling toolset, extremely nice rendering engine, and a very clean, very powerfull and quite SIMPLE user interface, really easy to learm.
Im using lightwave nearly 7 years, and tryed parallelly most of the existing competitors. IMO Max is really the worst of them, its lucky point that Discreet made a very powerfull marketing on, but...thats really not enough from a side of an artist. Im using max for years for different reasons, but its cant to compete with LW, simple LW is on a much much higher evolution level than max. I think max only one good advantage on biped animations, but thats all.

You cant give any reason why max is the king...what for ?

Ligtwave is in development continously from the good old days of the 16 bit Amiga, (started its story, as a high end broadcast rendering and video editing system named Video Toaster back in time, more than 15 years ago.) Its rendering and extremely powerfull tool architecture really a state of the art stuff.
Im highly recommend it to purchese.

ooops...maybe forgotten ! Another reason : the TGE exporter from LW is really a cool one, easy to use. We worked with both of them, the LW exporter really a kick ass product, IMO much better than the max exporter..we thanks it for Ligtwave Dave every day...;)

#5 Heh another Lightwave v max thread. I'd recommend either Maya or 3dsmax. 3dsmax has the most third party support across the board as far as import and export. Plus some of the best modeling tools out there.

It also makes for a great level editing/object placement tool depending on the engine your exporting to and the features your exporter supports.

Not saying that lightwave isn't good, but it generaly isn't that well supported in the game industry.

#6 Max just got a head start in the game modelling industry, if people would make Lightwave exporters like they did for 3ds then Lightwave would walk over 3ds.

Ok maybe 3ds has a few better animation tools, but modelling wise Lightwave is the king, why else would all the big movie studios and big games like unreal tournament use Lightwave for modelling? Cheaper(by alot!), easier to pump out art content and a fast workflow. admittedly Lightwave has given me a fair share of grief in the past with animation, but nothing compared to the pain in the rear end max was.

Also what worries me is why discreet release a new 3ds max every year basically? It wasn't long ago since i was reading up about 3ds max 5! All these new features and improved tools, don't seemed to do an awful lot for me really.

#7 @All

Ok I am going to stop this petty "my app is better than you app because I think its so cool" debrate right here and now, it's pointless and it doesn't serve anything.

Argument 1 - XYZ Application was released sooner than ABC: Although the release of an application does allow it to get attention early on, ultimately its the ability for the artists to use it and the ability for the program to fit in the art pipeline that makes the final decision. Tools are chosen because its what the team wants and needs.

Argument 2 - XYZ Applications Tool are the best!: Unfortunately if this was true, everyone would use XYZ application, but because they aren't and the needs of the industry differ so much there is plenty of room for competition.

Argument 3 - XYZ Application is Used in Big Production A, B & C: I hate to break this to you but so is every other 3D application on the market, they are all used to produce art and assets for Film, Television and Games. Regarding why a particular application is chosen has more to do with what the team wants to use to tackle the problem and less to do with one application being superior than the others.

It is true that some applications have had problems in the past getting into certain markets, but those applications have evolved to meet that demand. If a certain application is having problems, perhaps its developers need to spend more time looking in their own backyard at the problem?

Argument 4 - Price: Although price is a factor to some, it still really comes down to what the artist needs and wants to use to best do the job. It could be a $20 application or a $10,000 custom application. If you have the talent to use the application, you will find a way to make a profit with that application.

As a second arguement I would be more concerned over which applications have R&D funding that is still available to them to continue to evolve their package. Generally speaking those at a lower price point generally have very weak R&D abilities because the market is not large enough to offset the lower revenue from having a lower price points.

Argument 5 - XYZ has more features than the other: Actually to be honest having the most features doesn't mean much, its having the most production ready and usable features that matter. Each major 3D application on the market has their own smoke and mirror campaigh that they push, it is up to the consumer to know which one suits their needs best.

Argument 6 - Release Periods: Most of the major 3D applications have a mandated major release between 8 months (Maya) and 12 months (Max/XSI). Lightwave is the only company that does not follow this policy since they are privately owned, but generally its about 1.5 years. So it really comes down to how soon you need/want new features, but overall it doesn't matter too much.

@Daniel

I am sorry to hear that you have not seen any usefulness out of the new features of 3DS Max as many others have. I personally have found the latest features in Max 7 to be incredibly beneficial towards increasing my workflow and productivity (which is what I want out of a new release) beyond what it already was, but to each their own I guess. You seem quit happy with what Lightwave offers you and I am glad to hear that.

#8 I could have sworn that max 6 actually came out at the end of 2002, or at least thats when I first got to try it at my old work. And I recall beta 4 of lightwave 6 being released as lightwave 6 full of bugs and totaly unuseable. Lightwave 6.5 a good 6 months later and at least one more version in less than a year. This must have been about 2001 when newtek came really close to going out of business). At which point Lightwave lost a lot of credibility and there was a pretty big migration to max and maya. that same year Max overtook lightwave in film and TV production where 14% of jobs avaliable were for max users, 8% for lightwave and almost 70% Maya. Not sure about following years though and I'm pretty sure that XSI made a huge dent since then :)

Max for me at least, sucked right up until v4. Prior to that lightwave was a better organic modeler. And in my opinion for interiors, and as a level editor bulider max still cant be beat.

If your doing character modeling etc, just about any of the big apps will do so long as your familiar with it and like its workflow.

And I never liked maya for low poly work, but I havent used it since v4 when it still had a lot of catching up to do.

#9 Lightwave is a very underestimated tool. There has never been much press along the lines of LW but it is well worth the money.
I have both 3ds and LW and I love LW.(but thats just my opinion)
But you might wanna be on the lookout for Luxology's MODO which is developed by the same genius that created LW.
(just a lot less daunting to work with, the menu system and such are built for the novice. And there are some absolutely beautiful tools in it.
Everyone should check it out, Its pretty cheap too, only like 900 dollars but still in its infancy with V.1.1 or somethin like that.
http://www.luxology.com/modo/

#10 I agree; I learned LW in 2 weeks; and I'm still discovering day by day its potentiality, albeit it is still easy to cope with. MAX, is machinous; it got only very great promo.