When is enough enough
by AndrewOsborne · in General Discussion · 10/28/2004 (4:35 am) · 77 replies
But wouldnt it get to a stage where if many people think like you (obviously they do) and buy these same packs.. you will have the same looking game to an extent :/
I guess it depends on the sort of models they are (ie a military weapons pack compared to the stylised female character pack of gamebeavers)
I guess it depends on the sort of models they are (ie a military weapons pack compared to the stylised female character pack of gamebeavers)
#2
10/28/2004 (4:51 am)
Vote with your credit card, thats all. Wonders of free market.
#3
This would mean that the base engine code never updates except for the network code and other minor changes
I understand people want to make money of all things they made .
-Billy
.
10/28/2004 (5:36 am)
What im worried about is the major part of the engine ,if all make code packs like lightpacks ,soundpacks,vehiclepacks,interiorpacks, aipacks then the base engine turning in to be a puzzle engine.This would mean that the base engine code never updates except for the network code and other minor changes
I understand people want to make money of all things they made .
-Billy
.
#4
Actual character models are lacking in the community, albeit free or paid for ones. I think once people get their hands on some more working examples with source (like Will Harrison is proposing) then more people will be able to load them up and modify them a lot easier ... see how it all works, rather than starting from scratch (not everyone is an artist, but even non-artists can tinker).
I'll be interested to see what form this mocap pack takes as well.
10/28/2004 (5:39 am)
I think there aren't enough content packs.Actual character models are lacking in the community, albeit free or paid for ones. I think once people get their hands on some more working examples with source (like Will Harrison is proposing) then more people will be able to load them up and modify them a lot easier ... see how it all works, rather than starting from scratch (not everyone is an artist, but even non-artists can tinker).
I'll be interested to see what form this mocap pack takes as well.
#5
Torque art pipeline is a real bitch to get used to especially if your a beginner, with no hugely gospel tutorials out there to follow...
I may look at creating a resource for getting your character model ingame in the next few weeks as I am plenty busy with studies at the moment!
10/28/2004 (5:46 am)
I guess the character issue is a big oneTorque art pipeline is a real bitch to get used to especially if your a beginner, with no hugely gospel tutorials out there to follow...
I may look at creating a resource for getting your character model ingame in the next few weeks as I am plenty busy with studies at the moment!
#6
So far, I've purchased The Forest Tree Pack (BraveTree) and the LightingPack (Synapse Gaming) and I think both of these are worth every penny.
10/28/2004 (5:53 am)
Well, you don't have to buy all the codepacks that come out. If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy it.So far, I've purchased The Forest Tree Pack (BraveTree) and the LightingPack (Synapse Gaming) and I think both of these are worth every penny.
#7
I also don't see Indie game development as being an opportunity to showcase technical skills (this is a personal interpretation - I'm sure there are others who disagree) as much as I see it as an opportunity to innovate. By that I mean introducing new gameplay ideas and even new genres into the gaming community. To me, that's (to varying degrees) independent of the technologies that are being used. If the technology pieces of the implementation are easy to come by and use, it provides more time and ability for the community to create - and I believe that's what Indies bring to the table that mainstream game development cannot.
I can understand concerns that games are all going to start to 'feel' alike if we're all just piecing together a game from the various content packs available. Again, though, Indies will (I believe) continue to innovate - if all indie games are starting to look alike, people will branch out with more individuality and creativity, leading to more new content available for developers to build with. With quantity comes selection - and with selection comes variety.
In other words, I see these content packs as a huge step towards the realization of great indie games!
Cheers,
Russ
10/28/2004 (6:23 am)
I really like seeing all this work going into content packs for the community - as Indie developers with limited resources, the more low-cost help we can offer one another, the better! I also don't see Indie game development as being an opportunity to showcase technical skills (this is a personal interpretation - I'm sure there are others who disagree) as much as I see it as an opportunity to innovate. By that I mean introducing new gameplay ideas and even new genres into the gaming community. To me, that's (to varying degrees) independent of the technologies that are being used. If the technology pieces of the implementation are easy to come by and use, it provides more time and ability for the community to create - and I believe that's what Indies bring to the table that mainstream game development cannot.
I can understand concerns that games are all going to start to 'feel' alike if we're all just piecing together a game from the various content packs available. Again, though, Indies will (I believe) continue to innovate - if all indie games are starting to look alike, people will branch out with more individuality and creativity, leading to more new content available for developers to build with. With quantity comes selection - and with selection comes variety.
In other words, I see these content packs as a huge step towards the realization of great indie games!
Cheers,
Russ
#8
In terms of Inide Games, I see content packs as a way for small indie teams to make their game 'large' quickly... to up the level of production quality.. and for artists and coders new to the community have an example of a working shape on which to base their work. Dollar for dollar, content packs are the best tutorials there are available for the TGE at this point in time.
In terms of 'all games looking the same'.. I see it as a non issue. There is not an overwhelming wave of games built with the TGE that are ready to ship. This is because finishing and shipping anything is hard. Those who have done it know what I am talking about. Given that a simple texture adjustment can drastically alter the look of an asset, and that many of the assets I want to see (trees, rocks, realistic guns) are pretty generic, I don't see this as a big problem.
I do want to see the day where I can log onto GarageGames, get some packs, throw some stuff together and have a pretty decent prototype of a game in under a week without involving a whole team of artists and coders. Content packs will allow for this.
as far as the quick buck comments.. most of the packs I know that are nearing completion and ready to ship (or that have shipped recently) were in the works for quite some time. Speaking for our company.. we shipped the first content packs well over a year ago and it is just now that people are starting to produce the number of products we thought we would see.
In terms of the character pipeline. hopefully the character pack we are releasing will ease the pain somewhat by providing an example. If the response is good, we are going to produce more character packs.. a generic 'standardized' skeleton that will work with the mocap packs that we are working with Troy at Elemental Motion on.
I see this as a good thing.. at first, there will be a lot of games with similar content.. but I think that this is much more referrable than a lot of games with unique but not very high quality content. If we want to raise the profile of indie games, we have to strive for an increase in production quality in the games we make across the board.. if all of them start looking better, we will collectively all benefit from this.
so, I think the 'all games are gonna be a the same' is chicken little thinking. Time will tell.. in my opinion it would be better to have more games shipping that look the same instead of more games sitting in limbo, half done, for lack of art assets.
10/28/2004 (6:34 am)
When I look at all the AAA games coming out.. for the most part, all the sci-fo shooters and military tactical games look pretty much the same. Looking at a screenshot of an Unreal based game, I am hard pressed to be able to tell the difference between them.In terms of Inide Games, I see content packs as a way for small indie teams to make their game 'large' quickly... to up the level of production quality.. and for artists and coders new to the community have an example of a working shape on which to base their work. Dollar for dollar, content packs are the best tutorials there are available for the TGE at this point in time.
In terms of 'all games looking the same'.. I see it as a non issue. There is not an overwhelming wave of games built with the TGE that are ready to ship. This is because finishing and shipping anything is hard. Those who have done it know what I am talking about. Given that a simple texture adjustment can drastically alter the look of an asset, and that many of the assets I want to see (trees, rocks, realistic guns) are pretty generic, I don't see this as a big problem.
I do want to see the day where I can log onto GarageGames, get some packs, throw some stuff together and have a pretty decent prototype of a game in under a week without involving a whole team of artists and coders. Content packs will allow for this.
as far as the quick buck comments.. most of the packs I know that are nearing completion and ready to ship (or that have shipped recently) were in the works for quite some time. Speaking for our company.. we shipped the first content packs well over a year ago and it is just now that people are starting to produce the number of products we thought we would see.
In terms of the character pipeline. hopefully the character pack we are releasing will ease the pain somewhat by providing an example. If the response is good, we are going to produce more character packs.. a generic 'standardized' skeleton that will work with the mocap packs that we are working with Troy at Elemental Motion on.
I see this as a good thing.. at first, there will be a lot of games with similar content.. but I think that this is much more referrable than a lot of games with unique but not very high quality content. If we want to raise the profile of indie games, we have to strive for an increase in production quality in the games we make across the board.. if all of them start looking better, we will collectively all benefit from this.
so, I think the 'all games are gonna be a the same' is chicken little thinking. Time will tell.. in my opinion it would be better to have more games shipping that look the same instead of more games sitting in limbo, half done, for lack of art assets.
#9
If your going to prototype, take the damned time to make your own simple models. It's cheaper and you have control over how far you want to go with the prototype functions.
I would never waste my money on something that would potentially be in somone elses game as well, it DEFEATS ORIGINALITY, and indipendant thinking for game design.
But it does make money from 50% of the under 18, making a MMORPG Dragon Ballz Z game Torque owners.
Instead of making content packs, make unique sale game characters and objects, or offer custom work, plain and simple. If you buy a character pack, and think your going to make money off of your game, think again.
Hell for $100 bucks you can get a custom modeled, textured and rigged unique character for your game, which in marketing terms if far more valuable then used/resold content.
10/28/2004 (8:54 am)
The content packs in my opinion are garbage and pointless for anything but prototyping. If your going to prototype, take the damned time to make your own simple models. It's cheaper and you have control over how far you want to go with the prototype functions.
I would never waste my money on something that would potentially be in somone elses game as well, it DEFEATS ORIGINALITY, and indipendant thinking for game design.
But it does make money from 50% of the under 18, making a MMORPG Dragon Ballz Z game Torque owners.
Instead of making content packs, make unique sale game characters and objects, or offer custom work, plain and simple. If you buy a character pack, and think your going to make money off of your game, think again.
Hell for $100 bucks you can get a custom modeled, textured and rigged unique character for your game, which in marketing terms if far more valuable then used/resold content.
#10
Plus an environment changes the look of the models substantially. Once you bought the packs they are just the starting point. A few hours in an art package, bit of time in quark and you can create a whole new set of models in 1/100 of the time and cost.
@matthew: getting the cash together for an entire games artwork is VERY expensive, it may be $100 for a character, but what about when you need all the npc's, other pc's, vehicles, objects, decorations.
You're looking at $100 * 100 which is $10,000. You do the math
10/28/2004 (9:04 am)
Content packs do nt end up with samey games. They come with the base graphics and models so you can easily change the look and feel of them.Plus an environment changes the look of the models substantially. Once you bought the packs they are just the starting point. A few hours in an art package, bit of time in quark and you can create a whole new set of models in 1/100 of the time and cost.
@matthew: getting the cash together for an entire games artwork is VERY expensive, it may be $100 for a character, but what about when you need all the npc's, other pc's, vehicles, objects, decorations.
You're looking at $100 * 100 which is $10,000. You do the math
#11
10/28/2004 (9:06 am)
$100 for a character? at what quality level? if you can do high level work that meets our quality criteria, I would like to contract you. email in my profile. 
#12
The packs offered on GarageGames are a GREAT DEAL and I look forward to licensing more of them...
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games, Inc
10/28/2004 (9:16 am)
We licensed Timoty Aste's Combo pack and several Bravetree packs... We've also licensed several thousands dollars in Poser content... (Poser rocks)The packs offered on GarageGames are a GREAT DEAL and I look forward to licensing more of them...
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games, Inc
#13
10/28/2004 (9:22 am)
I think they're a great idea. I'd license them if I had the money. As a programmer, I have zero artistic abilities. Therefore, it makes sense to license content packs. Sure, your game *may* look like others, but if you use content packs to further your game, there's a good chance you may find an artist will to assist you (for money or otherwise). If nothing else, they're a great starting point to get you going. Bring 'em on! The more the merrier. 
#14
I'm simply not good enough to put in some programmer art made with non-textured cubes and tell if the idea is fun. Even taking the "damn time" to do that is a waste. Seems a little strange that most of the developers that have professional experience are embracing the idea of content packs. That should be a good sign for seeing more content packs.
Lastly, in spite of the fact that we run one of the biggest game developer sites in the world, I have never seen characters available for purchase at $100. Just let me know, where do I sign up??
10/28/2004 (9:39 am)
I don't think there are anywhere near enough content packs. If you follow the idea of quickly prototyping your game idea to see if it is good, then having a lot of pre built content makes it much easier. I'm simply not good enough to put in some programmer art made with non-textured cubes and tell if the idea is fun. Even taking the "damn time" to do that is a waste. Seems a little strange that most of the developers that have professional experience are embracing the idea of content packs. That should be a good sign for seeing more content packs.
Lastly, in spite of the fact that we run one of the biggest game developer sites in the world, I have never seen characters available for purchase at $100. Just let me know, where do I sign up??
#15
10/28/2004 (10:04 am)
@Billy: Regarding increasing complexity of the code, the new component system should handle that well. Third-party "code-content" developers will be able to hook-on to the engine rather than make core modifications. I'm sure there will still be -some- engine mods, but we should see a lot less with the enhanced architecture. That is, if I understand the design decision correctly.
#16
EDIT: Seems that Eric Rudisil right above me posted on the wrong topic, LOL!
10/28/2004 (10:05 am)
One thing no one said so far: if you don't like content packs, don't use them. Is someone forcing you? Isn't it good to have options anyway?EDIT: Seems that Eric Rudisil right above me posted on the wrong topic, LOL!
#17
once I'm back into making games I'll be looking out for more packs for sure... for what you get, and what the alternatives are they are fantastic value.
:D
10/28/2004 (10:05 am)
I love content packs, I only have the car pack and the tree pack, car pack makes making cars easy and trees can just be chucked straight into the game! for my purposes it doesn't really matter if my trees end up looking like someone elses in their game cos my games are going to be different than other people's!once I'm back into making games I'll be looking out for more packs for sure... for what you get, and what the alternatives are they are fantastic value.
:D
#18
10/28/2004 (11:02 am)
Actually, i've thought about this too. After you get so many content packs out there, games will probably start using the same packs as others, which may make things sorta dull. You play Game A which uses the some content pack as Game B, only in a new manner and yet charge you the same price for the same content, just re-arranged. I always felt this may take away some of the originality and dynamic form of games. Of cource this won't happen with them all, but its bound to happen with a few and i think thats minorly disapointing. 
#19
Time and time again I have heard "Content packs will make my game look like all the other games out there!" *But* I have yet to see that happen! If you can point me to an example of a couple of shipped indie games that look alike b/c they used the same content packs I would love to see it =)
What I have seen though is that there are all of these mods out there for the various major titles that *do* use the same content (that which ships with the game) and they *do* look alike and it *doesn't* hurt their popularity/success.
So, we are not seeing games that all look alike and even if we did (it may happen one day) I have yet to see any proof that it would actually be a detrimental thing.
Dismissing content packs as a waste of money is outright foolishness. If I spend a month getting to grips with a modelling package and learning the ins and outs of modelling, rigging, animating, unwrapping, texturing, *and* exporting then I have wasted a month of game sales which are worth far more than the small amount of money I would have spent on the content packs. Time is money even if it isn't as obvious to a hobbyist/parttime developer.
10/28/2004 (11:52 am)
I've heard this "debate" off and on for *years* now.Time and time again I have heard "Content packs will make my game look like all the other games out there!" *But* I have yet to see that happen! If you can point me to an example of a couple of shipped indie games that look alike b/c they used the same content packs I would love to see it =)
What I have seen though is that there are all of these mods out there for the various major titles that *do* use the same content (that which ships with the game) and they *do* look alike and it *doesn't* hurt their popularity/success.
So, we are not seeing games that all look alike and even if we did (it may happen one day) I have yet to see any proof that it would actually be a detrimental thing.
Dismissing content packs as a waste of money is outright foolishness. If I spend a month getting to grips with a modelling package and learning the ins and outs of modelling, rigging, animating, unwrapping, texturing, *and* exporting then I have wasted a month of game sales which are worth far more than the small amount of money I would have spent on the content packs. Time is money even if it isn't as obvious to a hobbyist/parttime developer.
#20
Coz
10/28/2004 (11:54 am)
I personally like content packs. Who as an Indie has the resources to create all of your own art? I agree with Fruitbat that just having a starting point is a huge advantage. I don't know about everyone else but content is most of the hold up with my projects. Matt I have to disagree with you. Although i'm still interested in your web hosting :)Coz
Associate Ian Omroth Hardingham
Mode 7 Games
Speaking as a coder, content packs are nothing but a good thing: they help you prototype quickly. And frankly, if we got to the stage where there were enough content packs that I could buy ten and have the necessery art for a small game I was working on, it would be fantastic.
Some content packs aren't worth the money, that's true, but you can see what you're buying before you lay down the cash.
Ian