Character Pack -- Normal Map Tests
by Will Harrison · in General Discussion · 10/14/2004 (9:57 pm) · 127 replies
Update
Color/Hair tests:
End Update
Some of you may remember me from this guy:
Anyway, I was thinking of making some RPG/fantasy type characters to put together into a pack.
I thought I would make this set for the pack:
- Male Fighter (swordsman)
- Female Fighter (archer)
- Male Townsperson
- Female Townsperson
- Mage
With 2 or 3 skins to choose from for each character, and as a bonus:
- swords
- shields
- some misc. items
Also, they would come complete with skeleton, animations, fully textured, collision mesh, LOD, and scripts...
...and then I would sell the pack for $25-30.
I was thinking I could sell the source art (e.g. Milkshape editable) as part of another pack with 2 extra models for ~$40.
Characters could be fully customised to suit your game if you're concerned about having that "one of a kind" look. This can be done by editing the textures and making your own weapons and components (e.g. helmet) and attaching to the model. Also, with the source art you could have an artist modify the mesh or create a new one. Either way (whether you customise it or not) you would save alot of time not having to make characters completely from scratch.
So that's the idea. Some questions:
- Would this be useful?
- Are these good prices?
- Is RPG/fantasy a good genre to start in?
- I listed some possible characters. Are there any others you would like to see?
- Would you buy it?
Any thoughts or comments are welcome. :)
Color/Hair tests:
End Update
Some of you may remember me from this guy:
Anyway, I was thinking of making some RPG/fantasy type characters to put together into a pack.
I thought I would make this set for the pack:
- Male Fighter (swordsman)
- Female Fighter (archer)
- Male Townsperson
- Female Townsperson
- Mage
With 2 or 3 skins to choose from for each character, and as a bonus:
- swords
- shields
- some misc. items
Also, they would come complete with skeleton, animations, fully textured, collision mesh, LOD, and scripts...
...and then I would sell the pack for $25-30.
I was thinking I could sell the source art (e.g. Milkshape editable) as part of another pack with 2 extra models for ~$40.
Characters could be fully customised to suit your game if you're concerned about having that "one of a kind" look. This can be done by editing the textures and making your own weapons and components (e.g. helmet) and attaching to the model. Also, with the source art you could have an artist modify the mesh or create a new one. Either way (whether you customise it or not) you would save alot of time not having to make characters completely from scratch.
So that's the idea. Some questions:
- Would this be useful?
- Are these good prices?
- Is RPG/fantasy a good genre to start in?
- I listed some possible characters. Are there any others you would like to see?
- Would you buy it?
Any thoughts or comments are welcome. :)
#82
11/05/2004 (5:04 pm)
I looked again, but I only see the "view all screenshots" link and it doesnt appear to be working for me.
#83
11/05/2004 (5:39 pm)
What browser are you using? If you scroll down, you should be able to see 4 screenshots, with a link below to view them all.. do you not see them at all?
#84
I see no thumbnails or anything else, just the "view all" link... when I click it, it opens a blank popup window.
Can someone else confirm this?
btw, I'm clicking the link above by Matthew Fairfax to get to the page.
11/05/2004 (9:52 pm)
Using IE6 on WinXP.I see no thumbnails or anything else, just the "view all" link... when I click it, it opens a blank popup window.
Can someone else confirm this?
btw, I'm clicking the link above by Matthew Fairfax to get to the page.
#87
I like the top left image showing the basic form, and the one pose with the second sci-fi skin. Actually I like it alot... I think you should show that one off more in your marketing/ads cuz it's looks better than the military skin, IMO.
I have one issue though...
The texture map shown there shows that her skin is totally symetrical. So that means if I want to give her a tattoo on her left arm, it would show up on both sides.... or if I wanted to put a hole in the pants of one knee... etc.
This is something I thought about for the character pack I'm working on... so I chose to make it open to asymetrical possibilities... If you or Joe have any views or opinions on this, I'd like very much to hear them.
11/06/2004 (8:33 pm)
Those look wicked!I like the top left image showing the basic form, and the one pose with the second sci-fi skin. Actually I like it alot... I think you should show that one off more in your marketing/ads cuz it's looks better than the military skin, IMO.
I have one issue though...
The texture map shown there shows that her skin is totally symetrical. So that means if I want to give her a tattoo on her left arm, it would show up on both sides.... or if I wanted to put a hole in the pants of one knee... etc.
This is something I thought about for the character pack I'm working on... so I chose to make it open to asymetrical possibilities... If you or Joe have any views or opinions on this, I'd like very much to hear them.
#88
It would also be possible to assign a separate material to one half (or one part) of the model and make a duplicate texture to map on the other side, thus allowing for that half to be different, but without the seam mipping.
In this case, it was a choice of better overall texture resolution, but other models I have done I have fully unwrapped, and also mixed and matched, with some parts being asymetrical and some symetical (folded), and have used duplicate maps on folded UVs with different materials on the actual polygons, but would not use that in a game, as it would be a waste of texture space.
As for having an opinion on it.. it is up to the modeler and the model, and the game.. it really depends on what the goals are. I prefer higher resolution to asymetry in most cases and only make certain parts asymetical when the design calls for it.
If it does need asymetry, I try whenever possible to only make the part that needs to be different be non mirrored and the rest mirrored, again, the conserve texture space. I also prefer to model in details where I can. With todays graphics cards, it is possible to blow a few more polys on a detail.. but some of the midrange cards with only 32MB of memory (like some gf4 mx cards) would start to choke if you start throwing multiple 1024x1024 textures on everything.
11/06/2004 (9:12 pm)
I chose to make the skin symetrical so that I had better texture resolution overall and to minimize seams. Seams tend to show up as nasty sharp lines when the textures mip. Making it not symetrical would not be that hard.. the source files are included, and it is pretty easy to just get the UVs from on side or the other, rearrange the UVs, and use the PSD file that is included to move parts around. It would also be possible to assign a separate material to one half (or one part) of the model and make a duplicate texture to map on the other side, thus allowing for that half to be different, but without the seam mipping.
In this case, it was a choice of better overall texture resolution, but other models I have done I have fully unwrapped, and also mixed and matched, with some parts being asymetrical and some symetical (folded), and have used duplicate maps on folded UVs with different materials on the actual polygons, but would not use that in a game, as it would be a waste of texture space.
As for having an opinion on it.. it is up to the modeler and the model, and the game.. it really depends on what the goals are. I prefer higher resolution to asymetry in most cases and only make certain parts asymetical when the design calls for it.
If it does need asymetry, I try whenever possible to only make the part that needs to be different be non mirrored and the rest mirrored, again, the conserve texture space. I also prefer to model in details where I can. With todays graphics cards, it is possible to blow a few more polys on a detail.. but some of the midrange cards with only 32MB of memory (like some gf4 mx cards) would start to choke if you start throwing multiple 1024x1024 textures on everything.
#89
I'm going to have two versions... one that is open to asymetrical design and the other one done similar to Jill's above.
11/06/2004 (9:48 pm)
Very good points... especially about the mips showing seams, I didnt think of that. Thanks.I'm going to have two versions... one that is open to asymetrical design and the other one done similar to Jill's above.
#90
11/07/2004 (5:48 am)
Here is another idea, the texture as is leaves some space that can be used. I mean the top head part isn't used (there is a special hair texture for that) So what you could do is get some parts of the model out like maybe the knee or shoulder and map that specific part to be in the place of the head part. All i want to say is that you don't need to use the full leg or arm to still get an asymmetrical effect. Making a good map is always trying to find the best combination between symmetry/asymmetry on one side and seams and distortion on the other.
#91
First problem is the seams that would show at the "sectioned out" area, although it may not be obvious.
Second problem is you have to squeeze it in somewhere with the rest of the map and you may not have enough room.
Third problem is the user must have and know how to use a 3D modeling program (or know someone who does), to the extent of using the "UV editor" functions, cutting edges, shifting UVs around, etc. This is just considering those who don't have much 3D experience.
Whereas, if the map is setup to accomodate asymeric possibilities, then right off the bat, the user can open their paint program of choice and make changes right to the map, and that's it, quick and convenient.
Having said that, there is still the advantage to the symetric layout in that you can fit more into a space and therefore increase the resolution of the texture. Keeps everything efficient and clean.
But I still want the convenience of being able to make asymetric changes right to the map and not have to touch the model or UV layout... hence deciding to have two versions.
11/07/2004 (8:17 pm)
Hi Pascal,First problem is the seams that would show at the "sectioned out" area, although it may not be obvious.
Second problem is you have to squeeze it in somewhere with the rest of the map and you may not have enough room.
Third problem is the user must have and know how to use a 3D modeling program (or know someone who does), to the extent of using the "UV editor" functions, cutting edges, shifting UVs around, etc. This is just considering those who don't have much 3D experience.
Whereas, if the map is setup to accomodate asymeric possibilities, then right off the bat, the user can open their paint program of choice and make changes right to the map, and that's it, quick and convenient.
Having said that, there is still the advantage to the symetric layout in that you can fit more into a space and therefore increase the resolution of the texture. Keeps everything efficient and clean.
But I still want the convenience of being able to make asymetric changes right to the map and not have to touch the model or UV layout... hence deciding to have two versions.
#92
I think the "problems" you mention aren't that much of a real problem.
The seams would be easy, just copy from you already made texture and position it rigth after pasting, than just paint what ever you want on it. Just make sure you stay away from the edge of the section. I've done it before and it is very easy and fast.
The second problem you mention i s something i actually tried to explain in my other post. There is some space in the map that looks like it is used but isn't. This is the top of the head, the part between the boots and the torso it was meant for the hair but Joe decided to do the hair separate.
Third i agree that people need some basic 3D app knowledge but from all adjustments you could make to the model this probably would be the easiest or at least it would be for MAX 5 minutes of work i would guess.
I hope this makes sense.
11/08/2004 (12:06 am)
Hi WillI think the "problems" you mention aren't that much of a real problem.
The seams would be easy, just copy from you already made texture and position it rigth after pasting, than just paint what ever you want on it. Just make sure you stay away from the edge of the section. I've done it before and it is very easy and fast.
The second problem you mention i s something i actually tried to explain in my other post. There is some space in the map that looks like it is used but isn't. This is the top of the head, the part between the boots and the torso it was meant for the hair but Joe decided to do the hair separate.
Third i agree that people need some basic 3D app knowledge but from all adjustments you could make to the model this probably would be the easiest or at least it would be for MAX 5 minutes of work i would guess.
I hope this makes sense.
#94
The basic male form is modeled.
The UV layout is half done.
Texture map is still very rough and needs to be painted in... that will take time.
When the texturing is done, I will post the WIP for critique... and then move on to bones/animation.
I get interruptions so I can't really give an ETA, but I would hope by the end of next month or so.
EDIT --
Any comments or suggestions on the form are welcome :)
11/09/2004 (8:46 am)
Hi Jeff,The basic male form is modeled.
The UV layout is half done.
Texture map is still very rough and needs to be painted in... that will take time.
When the texturing is done, I will post the WIP for critique... and then move on to bones/animation.
I get interruptions so I can't really give an ETA, but I would hope by the end of next month or so.
EDIT --
Any comments or suggestions on the form are welcome :)
#95
11/10/2004 (4:49 am)
Lookin' great so far!
#96
I really have know idea what kind of style you guys would like, so if you have any suggestions or links to fantasy art sites that you like, please post, it would be a great help.
Or... tell me what is your favourite rpg/fantasy game (or book) character design? EverQuest? Final Fantasy? Fable?
11/10/2004 (9:24 am)
Thanks Jeff :)I really have know idea what kind of style you guys would like, so if you have any suggestions or links to fantasy art sites that you like, please post, it would be a great help.
Or... tell me what is your favourite rpg/fantasy game (or book) character design? EverQuest? Final Fantasy? Fable?
#97
11/10/2004 (12:28 pm)
@ will harrison - the ear is a little too large and would look better if rotated (using the center headshot as a reference) 5-10 degrees cloockwise. The hairline is abit too high/receeding. Other than that, looks pretty good :) 
#98
of modifying it for my game ideas,after hours of
wasting my time trying to do the impossible if you
dont know how ie: advanced mesh editing and
skin envelopes.
and not having the time to learn all these things
i realize i have wasted $40 bucks on something i am never
gonna use,which is only of value to some people
who can actually do something with it.
although joe you reckon you only did a girl because
it would sell better,what actual use is this pack at all
to the game maker who needs results quick.
im afraid im with the author of this post,
i need soldiers,not cartoony girls,with an assault rifle
that hasnt even got a sound (thats one thing i did manage to do)
and for $40 bucks?
i am thinking i should have bought tims building pack instead
and put up with the default chap.
i am all up for paying for realistic playermodels like
Will is thinking of doing,leaving the only editing you need to
do as texturing and making weapons.
sorry if it seems like i am moaning,but i just spent
5 hours trying to change this stupid girl model to look like a man.
this pack should at least included a male model as well and
in human proportion at that,for the cost of half a game engine.
oh well
btw Will your chap is coming along nicely ill def be up for paying
at least include one normal regular soldier model,please.
and the code blue guy is just what im looking for,ingame,and free wow,thanks.
11/10/2004 (4:18 pm)
You know after buying the girl pack with the intentionof modifying it for my game ideas,after hours of
wasting my time trying to do the impossible if you
dont know how ie: advanced mesh editing and
skin envelopes.
and not having the time to learn all these things
i realize i have wasted $40 bucks on something i am never
gonna use,which is only of value to some people
who can actually do something with it.
although joe you reckon you only did a girl because
it would sell better,what actual use is this pack at all
to the game maker who needs results quick.
im afraid im with the author of this post,
i need soldiers,not cartoony girls,with an assault rifle
that hasnt even got a sound (thats one thing i did manage to do)
and for $40 bucks?
i am thinking i should have bought tims building pack instead
and put up with the default chap.
i am all up for paying for realistic playermodels like
Will is thinking of doing,leaving the only editing you need to
do as texturing and making weapons.
sorry if it seems like i am moaning,but i just spent
5 hours trying to change this stupid girl model to look like a man.
this pack should at least included a male model as well and
in human proportion at that,for the cost of half a game engine.
oh well
btw Will your chap is coming along nicely ill def be up for paying
at least include one normal regular soldier model,please.
and the code blue guy is just what im looking for,ingame,and free wow,thanks.
#99
I am disappointed to hear that you did not enjoy the character pack. One would hope that you would have found value in the incredible work that went into making the models for the pack, the custom rig, animations and extra animation creation documentation. In regards to usage or insight that it gives you and your team, or the fact that everything in there is reusable.
$40 is a dammed good steal IMHO not just because you get production quality art (and weapon) samples but something you can learn from too, I just find it unfortunate that you are too short sighted to see the value you are getting and how it will benefit your project, but ce'la've.
11/10/2004 (5:30 pm)
@Jojimbo,I am disappointed to hear that you did not enjoy the character pack. One would hope that you would have found value in the incredible work that went into making the models for the pack, the custom rig, animations and extra animation creation documentation. In regards to usage or insight that it gives you and your team, or the fact that everything in there is reusable.
$40 is a dammed good steal IMHO not just because you get production quality art (and weapon) samples but something you can learn from too, I just find it unfortunate that you are too short sighted to see the value you are getting and how it will benefit your project, but ce'la've.
#100
Sorry to distrupt your thread there with my previous posts. Here are some thoughts/comments that I have about your preview samples, I hope that you will consider them as critiques regarding how to make it better (and not petty bashing like some other posters on this thread have done):
1. The proportions seem way off on your character model.
2. I dont feel that there is enough defenition in the form of the character. There is nothing that makes the model stand out to me to get an impression of what he is or what hes supposed to do. There are no muscles, no angles or shapes, it all feels like play-doh to me. You might want to give the art some feeling like "bad ass Marine vetern who will tear you limb from limb for calling him a play-doh man". Get what I am saying?
3. I am not a big fan of using realistic textures in games (ie. scans or photos), to me this ruins the suspension of disbelief because the rest of the game art doesn't match it, nor does it give a unique feel to everything. Personally I would redo the textures by hand, I think they would give a much better and cleaner result in the end.
Questions:
Can you post a wireframe sample of the model? I am curious to see how you have set it up for deformation. Also can you post a sample of your UVW mapping?
Logan
11/10/2004 (5:41 pm)
@WillSorry to distrupt your thread there with my previous posts. Here are some thoughts/comments that I have about your preview samples, I hope that you will consider them as critiques regarding how to make it better (and not petty bashing like some other posters on this thread have done):
1. The proportions seem way off on your character model.
2. I dont feel that there is enough defenition in the form of the character. There is nothing that makes the model stand out to me to get an impression of what he is or what hes supposed to do. There are no muscles, no angles or shapes, it all feels like play-doh to me. You might want to give the art some feeling like "bad ass Marine vetern who will tear you limb from limb for calling him a play-doh man". Get what I am saying?
3. I am not a big fan of using realistic textures in games (ie. scans or photos), to me this ruins the suspension of disbelief because the rest of the game art doesn't match it, nor does it give a unique feel to everything. Personally I would redo the textures by hand, I think they would give a much better and cleaner result in the end.
Questions:
Can you post a wireframe sample of the model? I am curious to see how you have set it up for deformation. Also can you post a sample of your UVW mapping?
Logan
Torque Owner Joe Maruschak