Edit: Opinions on gameplay ideas for a game
by Paul Fassett · in General Discussion · 10/06/2004 (4:44 am) · 7 replies
I posted a thread earlier in the week about a 2d gameplay demo I was doing that has went swimmingly I must say, I have completed everything in a very short time that I wanted to complete and now I am looking to go back to torque for a 3d version. Here is an outline of what we hope to do.
http://www.11series.com/Mission.html
It also bears mentioning that the screenshots on that page are old, and of very bad models :)
So I pose the following questions to you guys. How would you like to see this type of game done as far as gameplay is concerned.
What type of camera perspective would you like to see?
Turn based, real time, or fps style combat?
Skill point stat system, or D&d style exp levels?
There is a matrix like system called the net where people can interact with information via a computer or bank terminal not unlike shadowrun. How should I handle the avatars inside the net and how should combat with security nodes be handled. I'm leaning towards something like the old sega shadowrun game.
Water will play an enormous role in the life or death of your character, but I have always questioned how fatigue should be shown in a player, and how often should a player have to consume water in 105 degree weather. How should I handle penalties for fatigue, sun fatigue, sun stroke, and other sun caused ailments so that they are not a constant burden, like having to drink every five minutes.
I am also tinkered around with the idea of a tradeskill system such as bone working, blacksmithing, water purification, and such. Are there any trades that come into mind that you would like to see, or should tradeskills be included in a single player game?
Also, and probably most important of all is, this is a sci-fi story. Elements within are well planned out like the power source and the banking and stock markets t
trade between cities, as well as the factions within. Many stories tell the backround through long dialog. I am looking to do it through books and keywords that can be asked of people, and they will elaborate. So there are dialog choices like the ones you see in NWN and Baldurs gate, but there will also be key words which can be learned through books like if you read an opperators manual you can learn the power source key word which certain people can tell you more about the subject. Is this a good idea, or an unrealistic idea, and why?
_____________________________________________________
Now for some development questions, my design document is about 35 pages so far, not a whole lot, I see the book becomming about 300 pages by the time of completion. I have some questions about design.
When you design buildings for games, what is your method of conceptual design, and what would you recommend I do for this type of game as far as building look, and city layouts.
When traveling the desert, there will be things you will see, things that are both real, and those that are just tricks the eyes play. When a person is fatigued, I hope to have the eyes play tricks on a player so they will see things like sand bunnies, and water reflections, how could I fake this in the engine and make the illusions scary enough to make it chaotic and encumbering to a player when they are fatigued. I want people to really be aware of where they are, so they never leave a town unprepared.
______________________________________________________
So just so that everyone knows, this will be a small game play demo like the last one and will feature all these elements, any feed back is helpfull.
http://www.11series.com/Mission.html
It also bears mentioning that the screenshots on that page are old, and of very bad models :)
So I pose the following questions to you guys. How would you like to see this type of game done as far as gameplay is concerned.
What type of camera perspective would you like to see?
Turn based, real time, or fps style combat?
Skill point stat system, or D&d style exp levels?
There is a matrix like system called the net where people can interact with information via a computer or bank terminal not unlike shadowrun. How should I handle the avatars inside the net and how should combat with security nodes be handled. I'm leaning towards something like the old sega shadowrun game.
Water will play an enormous role in the life or death of your character, but I have always questioned how fatigue should be shown in a player, and how often should a player have to consume water in 105 degree weather. How should I handle penalties for fatigue, sun fatigue, sun stroke, and other sun caused ailments so that they are not a constant burden, like having to drink every five minutes.
I am also tinkered around with the idea of a tradeskill system such as bone working, blacksmithing, water purification, and such. Are there any trades that come into mind that you would like to see, or should tradeskills be included in a single player game?
Also, and probably most important of all is, this is a sci-fi story. Elements within are well planned out like the power source and the banking and stock markets t
trade between cities, as well as the factions within. Many stories tell the backround through long dialog. I am looking to do it through books and keywords that can be asked of people, and they will elaborate. So there are dialog choices like the ones you see in NWN and Baldurs gate, but there will also be key words which can be learned through books like if you read an opperators manual you can learn the power source key word which certain people can tell you more about the subject. Is this a good idea, or an unrealistic idea, and why?
_____________________________________________________
Now for some development questions, my design document is about 35 pages so far, not a whole lot, I see the book becomming about 300 pages by the time of completion. I have some questions about design.
When you design buildings for games, what is your method of conceptual design, and what would you recommend I do for this type of game as far as building look, and city layouts.
When traveling the desert, there will be things you will see, things that are both real, and those that are just tricks the eyes play. When a person is fatigued, I hope to have the eyes play tricks on a player so they will see things like sand bunnies, and water reflections, how could I fake this in the engine and make the illusions scary enough to make it chaotic and encumbering to a player when they are fatigued. I want people to really be aware of where they are, so they never leave a town unprepared.
______________________________________________________
So just so that everyone knows, this will be a small game play demo like the last one and will feature all these elements, any feed back is helpfull.
#2
Thank you for the opinions. I'm hoping to get a lot of feed back so I can compile a list of all the things people have said they wanted and take that list and compile it into my design doc.
10/06/2004 (10:54 am)
@will The flash game hasn't been abandoned. It's actually done. I did what I set out to do with it, and now I'm going to try my hand at doing the same in torque. It wasn't too terribly hard to do seeing how most of it was done before I posted. I am actually working on the main character right now. UV mapping is pretty easy for me in max. one of the enemies is already done and you can actually see an old beta version of it and another model in my profile on this site. Thank you for the opinions. I'm hoping to get a lot of feed back so I can compile a list of all the things people have said they wanted and take that list and compile it into my design doc.
#3
For what you're proposing, an FPS perspective would probably be the most effective, given that you're considering moving between the "real" world and a computer generated "VR" world. It takes care of the camera perspective and allows for a good "you are there" feel for gameplay, essential for any good RPG.
In regards to your questions about trade skills, I'd look very carefully at whether or not you can make them actually useful in the context of the game. Consider Morrowind and how it handled crafting skills. The skills were there, and a couple of them served a dual purpose (not only in crafting items, but in the effectiveness of items used), but they were never extraneous. They fit in the context of the game. Make it worth the player's while to have, use, and develop trade skills. Whether it's basic gunsmithing (gotta keep those pea-shooters in top shape) or advanced genetic engineering ("No, fool, you add the lysine destabilizer BEFORE the polymerase resequencing compound!"), you have to make those trade skills genuinely useful to the character, not just a neat feature to add into the set. Think about the kinds of characters that would be used by a player and think of what skills would be useful them, and think of how they could use them in the game. Also consider what kinds of materials the player would need to accomplish certain effects. A basic gunsmith might have (or need to use) a cleaning kit with some gun oil and a small selection of brushes to try effect repairs on a gun that jams. A master gunsmith on the other hand would have (or need) lathes for turning barrels, smelting pot and moulds to cast bullets, stamps and dies for machining frames and mechanisms, etc. The basic gunsmith wouldn't be able to manufacture a new weapon with his cleaning kit, but the master gunsmith would not only clear the jam, he'd improve the quality of the weapon.
Fatigue is always one of the really niggling details in a game. It can kill the flow the game very easily if improperly implemented. In your position, I'd save that for later, after you have the basic gameplay worked out.
10/06/2004 (11:21 am)
Bold stuff, to be sure.For what you're proposing, an FPS perspective would probably be the most effective, given that you're considering moving between the "real" world and a computer generated "VR" world. It takes care of the camera perspective and allows for a good "you are there" feel for gameplay, essential for any good RPG.
In regards to your questions about trade skills, I'd look very carefully at whether or not you can make them actually useful in the context of the game. Consider Morrowind and how it handled crafting skills. The skills were there, and a couple of them served a dual purpose (not only in crafting items, but in the effectiveness of items used), but they were never extraneous. They fit in the context of the game. Make it worth the player's while to have, use, and develop trade skills. Whether it's basic gunsmithing (gotta keep those pea-shooters in top shape) or advanced genetic engineering ("No, fool, you add the lysine destabilizer BEFORE the polymerase resequencing compound!"), you have to make those trade skills genuinely useful to the character, not just a neat feature to add into the set. Think about the kinds of characters that would be used by a player and think of what skills would be useful them, and think of how they could use them in the game. Also consider what kinds of materials the player would need to accomplish certain effects. A basic gunsmith might have (or need to use) a cleaning kit with some gun oil and a small selection of brushes to try effect repairs on a gun that jams. A master gunsmith on the other hand would have (or need) lathes for turning barrels, smelting pot and moulds to cast bullets, stamps and dies for machining frames and mechanisms, etc. The basic gunsmith wouldn't be able to manufacture a new weapon with his cleaning kit, but the master gunsmith would not only clear the jam, he'd improve the quality of the weapon.
Fatigue is always one of the really niggling details in a game. It can kill the flow the game very easily if improperly implemented. In your position, I'd save that for later, after you have the basic gameplay worked out.
#4
Anyone else have input. I could use all the input I can get.
10/07/2004 (3:15 am)
@Axel Thanks for the input. The camera perspective is one of those things I haven't quite decided on yet. Since bethesda owns the rights to fallout and they are most likely going with fps for what would have been Van Buren :( *Cries* I don't know quite yet what to do because I don't want to make a clone of what they are doing.Anyone else have input. I could use all the input I can get.
#5
however, the "matrix" mode could be first person. I have always thought that the "net" aspect is always about *speed*, so it could be like sureal racing game with software agents, maybe using software caltrops, traps etc. Your art needs shouldnt be too hard there as well, because, well, matrix is kind of abstract concept itself.
About the skills - you should make them in tiers - primary skills, concerning survival (all combat and related skills), then social and crafting skills. As your game basically seem to have two gameplay modes (real and matrix world), make it so that those skills that are not so important in real world, may increase players competiteveness in the matrix world. so, imp in one world might be a demigod in another:)
About the concepts - you need to articulate to yourself, what is that world, what is its history. is it alien? is it partially alien? what made people go there? (it sounds pretty harsh world, not resort-kind, after all) were there disasters? what is the level of tech and civilization there?
Finally - dont sweat the design doc. If it doesnt come naturally for you to document every single thing, dont. There has been a debate over that and it appears that most *completed* games didnt have more than those 30 pages, sometimes 3 pages max. Those thick bibles more often than not usually stay just a heap of paper.
Part oabout fatique caused phantoms is intriguing. What if those phantoms were closely tied to players actions before? Like, if they have killed a specific person or been "genocidal" to some specific group, phantoms tend to take shape of such persons? Or, if he is running from the law, what if he sees bounty hunters on every corner?
I think, art-wise, yourt biggest challenge will be making desert look interesting because, its mostly just that - plain of sands. Ruins, oasis and encounters (both real and phantoms) can give diversity, but you need something more. Most of us are urban types and we resond well to crowded structures, while desert seems an empty thing.
10/10/2004 (1:38 am)
I personally think going top-down 3D would be the best for an indie game of such scale. See, in first person your world needs to be *extremely* detailed today to have chance of competing. Distanced camera allows kind of more abstract environments, you can fool the eye more easily. In short - your art needs would not be so mind blowing.however, the "matrix" mode could be first person. I have always thought that the "net" aspect is always about *speed*, so it could be like sureal racing game with software agents, maybe using software caltrops, traps etc. Your art needs shouldnt be too hard there as well, because, well, matrix is kind of abstract concept itself.
About the skills - you should make them in tiers - primary skills, concerning survival (all combat and related skills), then social and crafting skills. As your game basically seem to have two gameplay modes (real and matrix world), make it so that those skills that are not so important in real world, may increase players competiteveness in the matrix world. so, imp in one world might be a demigod in another:)
About the concepts - you need to articulate to yourself, what is that world, what is its history. is it alien? is it partially alien? what made people go there? (it sounds pretty harsh world, not resort-kind, after all) were there disasters? what is the level of tech and civilization there?
Finally - dont sweat the design doc. If it doesnt come naturally for you to document every single thing, dont. There has been a debate over that and it appears that most *completed* games didnt have more than those 30 pages, sometimes 3 pages max. Those thick bibles more often than not usually stay just a heap of paper.
Part oabout fatique caused phantoms is intriguing. What if those phantoms were closely tied to players actions before? Like, if they have killed a specific person or been "genocidal" to some specific group, phantoms tend to take shape of such persons? Or, if he is running from the law, what if he sees bounty hunters on every corner?
I think, art-wise, yourt biggest challenge will be making desert look interesting because, its mostly just that - plain of sands. Ruins, oasis and encounters (both real and phantoms) can give diversity, but you need something more. Most of us are urban types and we resond well to crowded structures, while desert seems an empty thing.
#6
I seriously think I will be leaning towards a 3rd person for this game as that is just what I am used to in role playing games, but the deciding factor in this will be how the combat system will work. Some input on that would help tremendously. I will either do a fps, skill based aiming, or turn based combat. Which do you guys prefer?
10/11/2004 (4:09 am)
@Nauris Awesome. A lot of great ideas there. Concerning story, this is a story I have been working on for about four years. The entire history of the world even it's own language has been written. I am actally basing this small game after the comic book I am working on right now. I can't tell the whole story as it would ruin the plot, (Not to mention this thread would be way too long) but it has to do with different dimensions wrapping themselves seemlessly around our world creating different realities in ours, like the ethereal dimension bleeding into our dimension giving us contact with spirits who have passed on. The world you as a player inhabit is a type of negative energy plane where everything decays to become stronger, and death is not the end. It gets real deep into religion and the ending hopefuly will blow some minds. But the fatigue idea is actually real cool but probably a little too technical for someone of my skill level. But if I can recruit some people to the cause who knows.I seriously think I will be leaning towards a 3rd person for this game as that is just what I am used to in role playing games, but the deciding factor in this will be how the combat system will work. Some input on that would help tremendously. I will either do a fps, skill based aiming, or turn based combat. Which do you guys prefer?
#7
10/17/2004 (9:24 pm)
Matrix online does a token based, skill, turn based combat 
Torque Owner Will Harrison
The premise sounds good so far...
Re Questions
"What type of camera perspective would you like to see?"
For RPG I think a high up Third Person view is best... but include a FPS option too. That would be the most fun IMO.
"Turn based, real time, or fps style combat?"
Make it so when you're in Third Person its adventure only -- interacting with characters and searching for things, etc.... then, if you want to fight someone, you switch to FPS view, which enables all your weapons. Then you play in FPS style combat... and when the battle's over, you switch back to Third Person.
"Skill point stat system, or D&d style exp levels?"
How about a hybrid system... exp levels, but also a skill point system?
Do you plan on using my character for you game? Just open up Milkshape and take off the 2 packs, lop off his head... and make a new one... then all you have to do is paint over the texture in ps. Save you alot of time modeling and UV mapping.