Spreading Garage Gameism
by Eric Prem · in General Discussion · 09/12/2004 (5:05 am) · 60 replies
Hey! Im looking for an answer from a GG employee if can have one. Frist of all I think Garage Games is THE most helpful online ocmmunity in this dimension. This is because the people are nice here and hardly ever laugh at the newbies (like me!). This is the exact opposite of a different online community called Gamefaqs. Many of the people there seem like constipated gamers cuz they r so angry. The only thing that GG is lacking is members. imean yeah youve got a lot of people but not as many active ones as gamefaqs.
Now the real Question: Do I have permission and would it be a good idea to go to other communities and start spreading the word of GG? plz let me know.
Now the real Question: Do I have permission and would it be a good idea to go to other communities and start spreading the word of GG? plz let me know.
#2
09/12/2004 (5:24 am)
I would be careful how you do this "free advertising" I have seen many boards get filled with "gee this engine isn't as good a such and such." which seems to only end up in flame wars that result in bad press/dislike for anyone associated with the "such and such" engine. 
#3
It's nice to care about GG but afterall this community works, as small as it is right now. If you post questions you get answers. And that works for most of us well.
09/12/2004 (5:29 am)
I hate flamewars. i do. so, after all, in GG case, would work only if you'd mention it to your friends. I am a former 3dgstudio user but didn't mention it anywhere. It's nice to care about GG but afterall this community works, as small as it is right now. If you post questions you get answers. And that works for most of us well.
#4
The specific target addiance would be mainly modders. I figure that if we can get some of them then there will be more people wiling to work on a real game.
Let me know what you think. Oh yeah and ill start addvertising tonight if I get a few more responses.
09/12/2004 (5:31 am)
Im not trying to promote the engine as much as the GG site itself. I mean I think that we could benifit from a few more members who could offer help and input and stuff like that.The specific target addiance would be mainly modders. I figure that if we can get some of them then there will be more people wiling to work on a real game.
Let me know what you think. Oh yeah and ill start addvertising tonight if I get a few more responses.
#5
09/12/2004 (5:39 am)
Not sure what you're trying to do, but sounds more like you have a lot of free time to spare. and i think - correct me guys if ime wrong - that GG is targeted on developers rather than simple and accidental modders. it's up to you, really, but catch the readme.txt before proceed, as alaways, u know what they say..
#6
09/12/2004 (5:46 am)
No i dont have a lot of free time. I would just include a little info in my signature on gamefaqs. Do you mean the readme for torque? cuz im not trying to advertise torque. I just want to swell the ranks here at GG. oh and some modders are really good but they just dont know that there are good game engines out there. plus modders can be very helpful to a indie team because modders are often very expieienced with certain things, like moddeleing.
#7
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=20349
Absolutely no help there....
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=21096
I got some help debugging my echo code, but no help on the problem...
etc... repeat...
09/12/2004 (5:53 am)
Not sure what makes this place any different. Take me for example, I've got over 570 posts on these boards, of which at least 90% of them involve directly helping someone with some problem. At the other end of the spectrum, I have asked for help myself about a dozen times, and at least 90% of those times I got ZERO response to my problems from anyone. Not only did the GG staff ignore my requests for assistance, but none of the 400+ people that I helped jumped in to assist either. I'm to the point now where I'm getting less and less prone to help anyone at all simply because the generosity is never going to be returned to me.www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=20349
Absolutely no help there....
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=21096
I got some help debugging my echo code, but no help on the problem...
etc... repeat...
#8
09/12/2004 (7:29 am)
@Gonzo T. Clown: Pretty general, I know I did help you myself and a few others did. Maybe the ones that "ignored" you didn't know what to answer? 
#9
Heck yeah, go for it. The community here is already big, but it's always great to see more people around helping each other, and hopefully working on games together.
Mod teams are more than welcome. We always say, "why make a mod when you can make a game?" and we'd love to see that message getting across to more modders. Many mod teams work very hard on great projects, and as cool as that is, it's unfortunate that they don't end up owning the rights or IP to their own work. Also, given all the great mods out there, it's awesome to see what those teams start doing once they can get their hands on the source code to an engine.
Indie games are rocking, but it'd be sweet to get even more talent pouring into the Indie game space. As time goes on, we'll see more and more of that, but the sooner the better.
A while ago, we wanted to start having people do just what you're talking about-- spread the word on Indie game development, and the great community here at GG.
Of course, it wouldn't be cool to come off like you're officially campaigning for us or something. People never dig that kind of thing. Sounds like you're just trying to honestly help people find a great game dev community though, so shouldn't be any problems there. And if people flame about it for some wack reason... oh well, such short-fuses wouldn't fit in here anyway.
So yeah, go for it!
-------------
Gonzo,
It's great that you've helped so many people. Excellent :) That's what this place is all about.
You've received lots of help too. It's easy to verify that... go to your profile and look at the 25 threads you've created. In the large majority of your threads with questions, people have tried their best to help, most resulting in good answers. Quick examples:
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=16856
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=16489
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=17389
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=16379
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=19264
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=19419
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=18934
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=17028
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=17909
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=19583
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=16135
Of course, I understand that it's frustrating to not have all your q's answered, but the people around here do their best. As someone who's spent a lot of time on various game development forums... I gotta say, this place is one of the most helpful and friendly ones around.
I'm glad you contribute to the helping and learning that gets done around here! Hopefully you appreciate that your q's have frequently been answered as well.
If the threads above are still bugging you, I'd suggest bumping them once every couple weeks or so, until you get 'em figured out. Bumping is not cool if it's done every couple days (and especially if it's every couple hours)... but every couple weeks is just fine.
Anyway, as you know, no bumps are necessary most of the time; people at least *try* to help in the vast majority of threads around here. Your own threads demonstrate that. :)
Let me do my part real quick... I posted in the first thread above. I'd do more, but it's 9am on Sunday morning and I've been here at the office working for 2 hours already... I have much more to get done today. We are always super-busy trying to make things even better around here, but we always try to help in the forums too (Ben does an especially good job with that, imo).
09/12/2004 (7:44 am)
Eric,Heck yeah, go for it. The community here is already big, but it's always great to see more people around helping each other, and hopefully working on games together.
Mod teams are more than welcome. We always say, "why make a mod when you can make a game?" and we'd love to see that message getting across to more modders. Many mod teams work very hard on great projects, and as cool as that is, it's unfortunate that they don't end up owning the rights or IP to their own work. Also, given all the great mods out there, it's awesome to see what those teams start doing once they can get their hands on the source code to an engine.
Indie games are rocking, but it'd be sweet to get even more talent pouring into the Indie game space. As time goes on, we'll see more and more of that, but the sooner the better.
A while ago, we wanted to start having people do just what you're talking about-- spread the word on Indie game development, and the great community here at GG.
Of course, it wouldn't be cool to come off like you're officially campaigning for us or something. People never dig that kind of thing. Sounds like you're just trying to honestly help people find a great game dev community though, so shouldn't be any problems there. And if people flame about it for some wack reason... oh well, such short-fuses wouldn't fit in here anyway.
So yeah, go for it!
-------------
Gonzo,
It's great that you've helped so many people. Excellent :) That's what this place is all about.
You've received lots of help too. It's easy to verify that... go to your profile and look at the 25 threads you've created. In the large majority of your threads with questions, people have tried their best to help, most resulting in good answers. Quick examples:
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=16856
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=16489
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=17389
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=16379
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=19264
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=19419
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=18934
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=17028
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=17909
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=19583
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=16135
Of course, I understand that it's frustrating to not have all your q's answered, but the people around here do their best. As someone who's spent a lot of time on various game development forums... I gotta say, this place is one of the most helpful and friendly ones around.
I'm glad you contribute to the helping and learning that gets done around here! Hopefully you appreciate that your q's have frequently been answered as well.
If the threads above are still bugging you, I'd suggest bumping them once every couple weeks or so, until you get 'em figured out. Bumping is not cool if it's done every couple days (and especially if it's every couple hours)... but every couple weeks is just fine.
Anyway, as you know, no bumps are necessary most of the time; people at least *try* to help in the vast majority of threads around here. Your own threads demonstrate that. :)
Let me do my part real quick... I posted in the first thread above. I'd do more, but it's 9am on Sunday morning and I've been here at the office working for 2 hours already... I have much more to get done today. We are always super-busy trying to make things even better around here, but we always try to help in the forums too (Ben does an especially good job with that, imo).
#11
One of the best way to support what we're all trying to do here is to continue to give back knowledge and help when you can and feed the collaboration.
Letting others know without 'spamming' other communities or sponsoring flame wars is how many find us... let me jaym@garagegames.com or Benjamin B. know if you find communities we should cross promote GG to (many are more fixated on AAA games not game creation, but we enjoy solid community relations with more and more all the time).
We talk about 'keeping it real' at IGC and thats what alot of what makes the GG community so amazing - not to much hype (although I try to do my job), not alot of ego and so many willing to be helpful. We all want to continue having a lot of fun learning how to take powerful tech, build productive teams and make some fun games, we all want to play. Right now our tech requires some programming and game development background (we're working to make it more accessable and easier to learn), but if you know modders, gamemaking hobbiests, programmers who've always wanted to make games or artists that want to learn and contribute please continue to spread the word.
Thanks for everyones support and keep spreading the word about GG.
09/12/2004 (11:10 am)
@Eric - GarageGames community truely is amazing and we enjoy about 300,000 unique vistors a month - we know that many of those who join us do so because you or someone in the community has mentioned to them our games or the power of the Torque technology and fun of making your own game. The number of people who read the forums and never post is staggering, but the way newbs learning about Torque and game development makes it as you said 'nice here' and we don't take humor from those who ask the same early questions most of us asked at one time. One of the best way to support what we're all trying to do here is to continue to give back knowledge and help when you can and feed the collaboration.
Letting others know without 'spamming' other communities or sponsoring flame wars is how many find us... let me jaym@garagegames.com or Benjamin B. know if you find communities we should cross promote GG to (many are more fixated on AAA games not game creation, but we enjoy solid community relations with more and more all the time).
We talk about 'keeping it real' at IGC and thats what alot of what makes the GG community so amazing - not to much hype (although I try to do my job), not alot of ego and so many willing to be helpful. We all want to continue having a lot of fun learning how to take powerful tech, build productive teams and make some fun games, we all want to play. Right now our tech requires some programming and game development background (we're working to make it more accessable and easier to learn), but if you know modders, gamemaking hobbiests, programmers who've always wanted to make games or artists that want to learn and contribute please continue to spread the word.
Thanks for everyones support and keep spreading the word about GG.
#12
out of the 25 threads I created, only 11 of them ask for help....
out of the 575 posts I've posted we'll drop 75 of them and say that I helped 500 times...
11/500 = 0.022
So in essence I can expect about 2.2% of the goodwill that I farm out to be returned to me. Or another way to look at it is I'll have to help at least 49 people before one of them will help me. If you wanted to see who helped me when, and calculate the repeats, we would be down to about a 0.005 percentage return. Thank god for repeat helpers.
@ Stefan - Trust me bud, I'm more than aware that you and I cross paths quite often. In fact, when I see your name on any post, I always make sure to lend any advice, answers or just personal thoughts if I feel it will help you at all. I can't answer everything you need, but I do try.
Edit: BTW, My previous post was not about "self-pity", it was more an observation that IMO there are plenty of people here that want to get all the help they can get, but have no interest in returning that help to others when the time comes. For example, I'm a terrible artist, and an even worse moddeler, yet I have handled dozens of questions regarding models and their setup. I can even take anyones model and properly export it for TGE despite whatever mistakes they made in the format(and have done so in the not so distant past). Yet in the entire time I have been here, I have managed to get ZERO models out of any of them. I have 3 games about to go into the trash because I can't find modellers who are interested in REALLY making a game. When they go in the trash, Gonzo is going with them.
09/12/2004 (1:10 pm)
Ok, you want to get technical, no problem....out of the 25 threads I created, only 11 of them ask for help....
out of the 575 posts I've posted we'll drop 75 of them and say that I helped 500 times...
11/500 = 0.022
So in essence I can expect about 2.2% of the goodwill that I farm out to be returned to me. Or another way to look at it is I'll have to help at least 49 people before one of them will help me. If you wanted to see who helped me when, and calculate the repeats, we would be down to about a 0.005 percentage return. Thank god for repeat helpers.
@ Stefan - Trust me bud, I'm more than aware that you and I cross paths quite often. In fact, when I see your name on any post, I always make sure to lend any advice, answers or just personal thoughts if I feel it will help you at all. I can't answer everything you need, but I do try.
Edit: BTW, My previous post was not about "self-pity", it was more an observation that IMO there are plenty of people here that want to get all the help they can get, but have no interest in returning that help to others when the time comes. For example, I'm a terrible artist, and an even worse moddeler, yet I have handled dozens of questions regarding models and their setup. I can even take anyones model and properly export it for TGE despite whatever mistakes they made in the format(and have done so in the not so distant past). Yet in the entire time I have been here, I have managed to get ZERO models out of any of them. I have 3 games about to go into the trash because I can't find modellers who are interested in REALLY making a game. When they go in the trash, Gonzo is going with them.
#14
It's great though that you answer so many more questions than you ask. :) Seriously, that's awesome.
Sorry you're frustrated with the modeling. Unfortunately, I'm *zero* help here. It'd be cool if we started getting more modelers and artists to hang out here too.
Good luck building teams for your games. It can be tough sometimes. I'd recommend maybe posting your game idea in the idea section and/or making a thread in the team building area. But yeah... good artists are very valuable, and hard to come by. Might also try looking around some other communities to recruit art talent, but I hope that wouldn't mean you'd have to stop dev'ing here for some reason.
09/12/2004 (2:28 pm)
Gonzo, I didn't mean to single ya out. Just didn't want you to feel like you'd been ignored. I was just saying that by far most of your q's had people try to answer. That speaks well for the community. It's great though that you answer so many more questions than you ask. :) Seriously, that's awesome.
Sorry you're frustrated with the modeling. Unfortunately, I'm *zero* help here. It'd be cool if we started getting more modelers and artists to hang out here too.
Good luck building teams for your games. It can be tough sometimes. I'd recommend maybe posting your game idea in the idea section and/or making a thread in the team building area. But yeah... good artists are very valuable, and hard to come by. Might also try looking around some other communities to recruit art talent, but I hope that wouldn't mean you'd have to stop dev'ing here for some reason.
#15
09/12/2004 (2:29 pm)
@Gonzo: I think everyone does their best. $100 for the TGE is not a lot of money. At some software companies I've worked for, our customers got free 30 day support then after that had to ante up big bucks "per incident" or a huge annual unlimited support fee. You get what you pay for. Also, giving is just that -- giving, and not expecting anything in return. That's what makes these forums great -- when someone helps me, they don't expect that I owe them a favor back.
#16
I think that part of the reason so many people are willing to help is that complete beginners don't outnumber more experienced members too greatly.
By complete beginners, I mean those who have only just decided that they want to create games, and are so fired up that they want people to tell them everything all at once. Answering one of their questions tends to lead to them asking half a dozen more. ;)
There is nothing inherently "wrong" about being that "green", as we were all at that stage once, but it does generally take more than one more experienced person at a time to keep up with answering their questions.
Something subtle like a link entitled "Independent Development Community" (or whatever) in your forum signature shouldn't open the floodgates too much though.
Josh Williams: I would start a new thread for this, but it is sort of related and may be relevant to the original poster.
Does Garage Games have an affiliate scheme or some form of promotion kit which provides images and URLs with official guidelines for use on other sites?
Gonzo T. Clown: I used to answer questions at the Spaceports forums on a regular basis (it's much less busy now that they transitioned to paid hosting), so I understand your frustration.
I have created over 3000 posts since joining in early 2000, despite being offline for extended periods during that time. I even created an unofficial help site.
The problem is, that the majority of people you help are going to remain less knowledgeable (unless they work hard to catch up) or will move on to pastures new. It's something you just have to accept.
One point to bear in mind is that somewhere at some time, you are likely to have asked a question without returning the favour, thus adding to the frustration of someone else.
Yes, there are some people who take without giving, just as there are people who are the exact opposite or somewhere between the two extremes.
I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone in this, and advise you not to let it change the way you naturally are (helpful).
09/12/2004 (2:31 pm)
Eric Prem: I agree with you about how helpful and useful this community is compared with many others, but I personally would be wary of promoting it too heavily.I think that part of the reason so many people are willing to help is that complete beginners don't outnumber more experienced members too greatly.
By complete beginners, I mean those who have only just decided that they want to create games, and are so fired up that they want people to tell them everything all at once. Answering one of their questions tends to lead to them asking half a dozen more. ;)
There is nothing inherently "wrong" about being that "green", as we were all at that stage once, but it does generally take more than one more experienced person at a time to keep up with answering their questions.
Something subtle like a link entitled "Independent Development Community" (or whatever) in your forum signature shouldn't open the floodgates too much though.
Josh Williams: I would start a new thread for this, but it is sort of related and may be relevant to the original poster.
Does Garage Games have an affiliate scheme or some form of promotion kit which provides images and URLs with official guidelines for use on other sites?
Gonzo T. Clown: I used to answer questions at the Spaceports forums on a regular basis (it's much less busy now that they transitioned to paid hosting), so I understand your frustration.
I have created over 3000 posts since joining in early 2000, despite being offline for extended periods during that time. I even created an unofficial help site.
The problem is, that the majority of people you help are going to remain less knowledgeable (unless they work hard to catch up) or will move on to pastures new. It's something you just have to accept.
One point to bear in mind is that somewhere at some time, you are likely to have asked a question without returning the favour, thus adding to the frustration of someone else.
Yes, there are some people who take without giving, just as there are people who are the exact opposite or somewhere between the two extremes.
I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone in this, and advise you not to let it change the way you naturally are (helpful).
#17
To be honest, I love GG. Other than a few negative apples and few bad experiences I have had a pretty positive experience here. I have at this time countless hours to spend on game development and could be a very serious help to anyone that needed me, or could be a hell of a teacher to those that want to learn while they build. I don't need the best of the best moddelers to get the job done, I just need someone with skills that exceed my own(which should be damn near anyone, lol). My true talents are in the code, and the problem solving aspects. Design, functionality, fun, etc... I can handle all that, but without art and models, I'm on a sinking ship with no life rafts.
Part of the reason I spend so much time helping others is because I figured that by helping others, I would be helping myself. My thinking was that if I could show people that I have a hell of a grip on this engine, that others might be willing to help me to help them to help us make a great game. I don't mind others profiting from my knowledge and experience, but I would like to profit from them myself. Seems only fair, lol.
09/12/2004 (2:35 pm)
Josh,To be honest, I love GG. Other than a few negative apples and few bad experiences I have had a pretty positive experience here. I have at this time countless hours to spend on game development and could be a very serious help to anyone that needed me, or could be a hell of a teacher to those that want to learn while they build. I don't need the best of the best moddelers to get the job done, I just need someone with skills that exceed my own(which should be damn near anyone, lol). My true talents are in the code, and the problem solving aspects. Design, functionality, fun, etc... I can handle all that, but without art and models, I'm on a sinking ship with no life rafts.
Part of the reason I spend so much time helping others is because I figured that by helping others, I would be helping myself. My thinking was that if I could show people that I have a hell of a grip on this engine, that others might be willing to help me to help them to help us make a great game. I don't mind others profiting from my knowledge and experience, but I would like to profit from them myself. Seems only fair, lol.
#18
Woops! Sorry, did not mean to advertise my company here. My bad, remove post if necessary.
..and God, what was the topic again? :) hope someone get the help they wanted anyways..
09/12/2004 (3:15 pm)
Gonzo, If you need 3d models of any kind just ask. everthing below the 450 polygons is free:). Or wait for the Gramofon Games Content packs to come. Fully featured (models, textures, buildings...) ready to get in game.Woops! Sorry, did not mean to advertise my company here. My bad, remove post if necessary.
..and God, what was the topic again? :) hope someone get the help they wanted anyways..
#19
A few months back there was talk of developing just such a program. I think it would be great. I'll ping Jay and Benjamin on the idea tomorrow, and get back to ya. Good q.
Gonzo,
Cool, I certainly understand. :) I think your idea to demonstrate that you know the engine well by helping others out here as much as you can is both admirable and smart, in terms of recruiting a team. Bummer it hasn't paid off yet, but it looks like maybe help is on the way now? Glimmer of hope at least. Keep tryin'. :)
09/12/2004 (3:23 pm)
Wysardry,A few months back there was talk of developing just such a program. I think it would be great. I'll ping Jay and Benjamin on the idea tomorrow, and get back to ya. Good q.
Gonzo,
Cool, I certainly understand. :) I think your idea to demonstrate that you know the engine well by helping others out here as much as you can is both admirable and smart, in terms of recruiting a team. Bummer it hasn't paid off yet, but it looks like maybe help is on the way now? Glimmer of hope at least. Keep tryin'. :)
#20
1. Other people have also asked questions before you (and had them answered), which saved you some effort.
2. Helping and/or teaching others also helps you to understand the subject more fully yourself.
I would offer to help you with modelling, but if there is anyone in the world worse at it than you, it's probably me. Four year olds laugh at my stick men. ;)
09/12/2004 (5:26 pm)
Gonzo: Another couple of factors to consider are:-1. Other people have also asked questions before you (and had them answered), which saved you some effort.
2. Helping and/or teaching others also helps you to understand the subject more fully yourself.
I would offer to help you with modelling, but if there is anyone in the world worse at it than you, it's probably me. Four year olds laugh at my stick men. ;)
Torque 3D Owner Apparatus