Can't log in to CVS

#21 Will SVN be used instead as a way for GG to provide fixes to the community in between official releases?

#22 "Correct, CVS is no longer used.

The email and getting started pages are being updated for the next release--it was overlooked in 1.5."

Ok, so how do we get access to the updates and bug fixes from now on? I just downloaded TGE and I can't compile it. I figured maybe there should be some fixes for it....

#23 When updates are released you download them from your account page just like you did when you downloaded TGE. Instructions for compiling TGE are on TDN, if you're having trouble then search forums and if you don't find the answer then post a question about it.

#24 I noticed that they upload TGE and TGEA about every week to two weeks and every time they do it, it seems the new release has some strange little problem with it usually equal to the one that was fixed. Nothing usually big enough to complain about but non the less I as a new consumer would have like to see cvs or an svn repository to fix small one line bugs rather then downloading the whole thing again.

#25 There must be some business property thing going on.

I cannot fathom a decent reason to discontinue cvs or the like.

I dont think you can expect to hear a decent reason either.

#26 Unfortunately, the actual releases are so few and infrequent, that they don't help people "stay updated" - the TGE releases actually HINDER developers in that they need to play a huge "catch up" game after a new release (if they want to stay "current" with the TGE code-base - which of course is NOT mandatory, but it's always a concern when developing with TGE).

I can't get TGE 1.5 to build with VC6 correctly... it gets linker errors. I don't remember reading that VC6 was abandoned in TGE 1.5, but I may have missed it. There is still a VC6 directory in the distribution, so I'm assuming it's "supposed" to work (which might be incorrect). The build files are obviously broken (i.e. haven't been updated with all of the new files/libs that were added to the build in 1.5 - there's no official list of the *details* of the changes, so there's some work to be done for someone who has no clue about TGE 1.5). You'd think GG would test all the build methods before release, but it looks like that was "overlooked" too.

If we have no CVS/SVN access to get these fixed build files (or other fixes and "overlooked" things), then we need GG to release 1.5.0.1 or something that includes them. (GG: You should really consider have SVN access for - at least - your Commercial license customers!) If GG really feels justified in their decision to stop alllowing CVS-like access to the code-base, they should step up to the plate and post an official announcement (on the main TGE page even), offer some alternatives, or at least answer questions from their paid customers in an official way... instead of just (seemingly) ignoring the issue...

Sure, I could fix these kinds of things myself (in some cases), but I'm an Independent Game Developer with limited resources, working for free, spending all my spare time from my "day job" trying to make an ACTUAL GAME. I don't have a lot of extra time to spend futzing around fixing up new versions of TGE that should be QA'd by the team of people that are making money by selling the new TGE versions, or figuring out exactly what code has been updated, what code has just been reformatted (causing a morass of diffs), the separation between code that is implementing new features vs. implementing bug-fixes (a proper SVN log would tell me the exact code changes for each bug-fix tho', and I could extract them and leave the new features, potentially, if we had an SVN log). Given that this was the first "paid upgrade" to TGE, I expect more than a wave of the hand and a "wait for the next release and maybe it'll work for you" kind of attitude (but I tend to have unreasonably high expectations regarding TGE... or so I've been told on occasion when I make that kind of claim).

Here's an idea GG... set up an SVN server with the TGE 1.5 code, and start a "bug bounty" program, where each community member can earn "credits" by submitting fixes (and possibly even enhancements) to the code-base. Then allow the community members to redeem their "credits" for licenses, product, discounts, whatever. Of course, you'll likely need to find and hire someone who will devote most/all of their time to collecting and analyzing the submissions on a day-to-day basis, and incorporating them into the SVN repository in a timely manner (rather than holding them all for the next TGE release), rewarding members with "credits", etc., but that kind of person shouldn't be too hard to find. If you're really serious about making TGE (and TGEA, TGB, etc.) the best product of its kind there is, then I don't see how you can avoid having something like this where developers can get the latest fixes daily... that is how independent developers, with limited resources (i.e. programmers mainly in this case) and time need to work... with HELP from GG, committed to keeping the code-base(s) up-to-date with all the latest fixes. Ideally, this should be done for each official version of TGE... i.e., bug-fixes added to TGE 1.3, 1.4.2, 1.5, etc. IGDs don't typically have the resources to move their code to a new TGE version which can have sweeping changes and significant numbers of new features, especially once there has been a significant amount of code changed/reworked/added by the IGD. Sure the forums are good if you have a specific problem and you want to search to see if anyone else has encountered it, but the forums have become (more and more, over the years) a morass of "partial info" on many topics (or downright wrong, or so old it doesn't apply any more), so they can be a huge time-waster for your audience - Independent Game Developers (with limited time). Of course, I think we are finding that, for the mostpart, the only people who are actually succeeding with TGE are those who have formed a team of very talented members (in some cases - with significant funding), who take whatever TGE version and go work on their own with it for a couple years, abandoning the forums and all the other stuff that doesn't have a good benefit-vs-time ratio. And, it takes years for even this kind of uber-focused-team to succeed at making one game with TGE. The bulk of the "If you have $150 and a dream..." kind of customers end up just spinning their wheels because they get caught up in the forums and the GGE and all the other "diversions" that don't specifically help people make THEIR game (but take significant time). Anyway, my point is that an IGD needs TGE updates (in CVS/SVN, or new releases or whatever), in a timely manner, for the version of TGE they're working with, on a daily basis, so they can avoid mucking around with TGE bugs (new bugs are introduced in each new release - it's a fact of life), for the mostpart, and spend their precious time MAKING THEIR GAME... and have a better chance of success.

GG likely doesn't want teams to just take the TGE code and "go off and make their game on their own" like coding-hermits... they probably want them to stay and contribute to the community, adding their knowledge "into the fold", allowing others to benefit, etc. How can GG attract such talented individuals to contribute where it counts? Maybe by allowing them to contribute in a way that makes a REAL and obvious difference in the actual TGE code, on a daily basis, with credit (code comments?) for their contributions... maybe with some kind of reward system... I'm not sure. Once you get to the point where you are serious about making a game with TGE, some things change. You're work can become IP for your IGD team/company, and it's not always possible to "contribute" that stuff back to GG. Then there is the frustration factor - your team spends so much time fixing "TGE things" that don't work quite right, that the last thing you want to do is just "give away" all that work you spent countless hours on to making it REALLY work. So there are many levels at work here: the IGD "situation", the technical hurdles, the lack of a constantly bug-fixed TGE code-base that doesn't change features or architecture in mid-project, the search for help from GG and the forums, etc., etc. I don't understand all the interactions, but I can tell you, our team has opted for a very "take TGE and go off on our own" kind of approach over the 2+ years we've been working on our game. I don't think that is a "good thing" for GG, but maybe it can't be avoided.

Oh well... anyway... I've already burned over an hour of my day on this (hopefully, thought-provoking and/or inspiring) post, so I need to go get some ACTUAL work done!

(... see what I mean ...) ;-)

#27 @ EddieRay

VC6 support was actually dropped back during 1.4 if I remember correctly, or maybe I'm thinking of TGEA. Someone might be able to confirm that for me.

#28 I really liked CVS also. I thought it was a great tool.

#29 I'm just curious has anyone ever heard from an official source as to why they needed / wanted to discontinue the support?

I am thinking no, because it is not a reason any of us would want to hear.

#30 I spent quite a lot of time making sure that TGE 1.5 would compile with VC6 and just tested it successfully. What linker errors are you getting? Did you apply the latest service packs to your VC6 install? Are you working with a clean install of TGE 1.5? Which files are you referring to with this:

Quote:
The build files are obviously broken (i.e. haven't been updated with all of the new files/libs that were added to the build in 1.5

Officially, we cut VC6 support when Microsoft discontinued their support on it (years ago) but have left the project files in the distribution for the handful of people who still use VC6 and were willing to do a little work to keep it up-to-date since none of the code in TGE specifically breaks VC6. I even went out of my way to make sure the VC6 files were up-to-date for the TGE 1.5 launch. TGEA *can't* even be built with VC6 (Microsoft stopped supporting VC6 with the DirectX SDK almost 2 years ago). If you are using VC6 do yourself a *huge* favor and upgrade to the free VC2005 Express. It is easier to use, cheaper, supported, and has a better compiler.

We dicsontinued CVS because we weren't using it internally for development anymore and can more easily ship out updates to the code through the official installers than doing mass merges into CVS every 6 months. We stopped doing small, incremental updates to CVS almost 2 years ago and maintaining it was simply not cost effective any more.

We haven't exposed an external Subversion server because there is no good way for us to tie our authentication system into Subversion's (one of the few downsides Subversion has to CVS).

#31 @ Matt thanks for the info it's always good to know info like that rather then sitting and thinking that CVS would have helped with the fix process.

@EddieRay Wow that was a mouth full to say the least... I did like that fact you mentioned something that I would like to see running the "bug bounty" minus the "credits" part which wouldn't work for GG, since GG is in the business of making money. I've been running around all over the forums looking at add ons and when I thought I found an add on that I really liked it would have compatibility issues because it wasn't maintained or the directions for how to implement weren't descriptive enough. I would really like to see a program or utility for the GG community in which people can submit and receive add on and/or patches which are "democratically reviewed" and are given a pass or fail and when passed can be directly patched to a clean install with the working executable and all with the changed files. The reviewers would check compatibility for 1.42, 1.5 and/or TGEA. In some many ways the community has these features but in others it doesn't.

#32 @Matt:

Yep, VC++ 2005 Express Edition is the way to go, but changing compilers is always somewhat "risky" (no matter what M$ tells you). It's not a proven compiler yet - years and years worth of commercial products have been produced and shipped that were built with VC6 - VC2K5EE has no "track record". And Microsoft does have a tendency to screw things up when they make yet another version of their products... ;-)

The VC6 build files work for compiling the Torque Demo EXE, but they fail for map2dif and map2dif_plus. As it turns out, it looks like the "lightingSystem" folder has been omitted from both (of course, neither program should NEED those files, but that's nothing new).

And back to the topic at hand: the TGE distribution download will forever have problems like this, because it's never updated to fix problems like this when they actually occur and are identified (and the next major version might fix them, but adds new problems too) - so why not release a new fixed version of TGE 1.5, so the next 100 people that download it don't have the same problem? Or, provide official patches for download. Or provide SVN access (SVN is open-source - add whatever authentication you like) if you don't want to go to all the trouble of producing new TGE downloads and/or patches (btw, SVN can generate patches between any two revisions).

I really think that releasing new TGE "versions" once per year (or two years) is not giving TGE developers what they need - and isn't that GG's mission? Having a new version with hundreds of fixes, but also lots of other changes, is difficult to digest... especially for a small team, with their own established TGE + game code. We tend to work in small increments - so we can throughly test each change. With TGE 1.5, for example, it's all just one big pile of changes, and since we don't have access to the SVN logs (of the individual changes as they're applied to TGE), we can't tell what's supposed to be a fix and what's just a code reformatting, and what is just a refactoring and what is a new feature without spending gobs of time analyzing it all (time which could be spent working on the actual game).

Anyway, I don't think most of the teams out there (the ones that are on the verge of actually finishing their game and have been down these "roads" so to speak) talk much about these kinds of issues and how they're affecting THEIR situation, and I'm not sure I'm describing them very well ("Hey, what the heck is Ed going on about anyways...???"), but hopefully this is useful as food for thought if nothing else. It remains that dropping CVS like this, with no other mechanism for getting updates to TGE is a "bad idea" for the community, IMHO...

#33 Oh, and btw... the build files for "vs2005" don't work out of the box either... try building map2dif or map2dif_plus on a clean TGE 1.5 install to see the failure (lightingSystem files missing from "Torque Tool Lib"). It's a shame that this bug made it into the official TGE 1.5 release... but it could be remedied via an official patch/update, and noone else would have to waste their time butting heads with it.

Is DX8.1 still supported by M$? That seems to be an integral part of TGE (for Windows at least), so I guess not *all* things M$ says are deprecated/unsupported can be abandoned so simply...

#34 Thats why I posted the fix to that little annoying error in the bug boards.
But I agree. It would be nice if such patches were done in a more appropriate timeframe, not in 3 to 6 month intervals.