Torque Review GDM

#1 The great community more than makes up for so called "too hard to get started" and "lacking good documentation". I don't think i'm very knowledgeable in programming, modeling, etc.(I only have an Associates degree in Computer Information Systems without any C++ work) I found that getting started was very easy. Hey there is even a getting started section that holds your hand through setting up CVS, Visual Studio, etc.

Well the good news is that Torque got some more press :)

#2 In fairness, TGE is a lot harder to get started with than something like the A6 engine, which is an all-in-one level editor/3d modeler/script editor/one-button-exe-creator. Torque uses a lot of different tools in a lot of different places and has much more of a learning curve. But as far as flexibility, commercial potential, and in a million other ways, there is no comparison -- TGE blows it as well as most other competition away. And you can't beat the price, or the community support.

As for documentation, you basically have the 3dGPai1 book and this link (tdn.garagegames.com/), but I know I'd sure appreciate the "Torque Documentation est $29.95 Coming Soon" to actually be coming soon. Lots of 3dGPai1 is devoted to tools I don't use (Milkshape, Quark, Paint Shop Pro) and actual C++ modding/re-compiling is outside of the scope of the book. Plus, it doesn't touch on as many different types of genres as some other engines do -- A6 has workshops and tutorials for flight simulators, street fighters, space flight games, 2d games, isometric games, and more. Torque has FPS/3rd person and racing. The materials under /docs/torque are somewhat scattered and the tutorials often don't walk you through step-by-step no-assumptions-about-prior-experience and don't have as many screenshots as they should, and often point to outside links or are things re-written from forum posts not originally intended to be tech docs. When I click on "Tutorials / DIF" I want to see "everything you wanted to know about DIF objects but were afraid to ask" starting with square one.

I'd agree with GDM's assessment, but believe me if those are the only two flaws, that's high praise -- neither are shortcomings of the engine itself. And just the exposure is fantastic -- the more people know about Torque, the more people will license Torque; the more people that license Torque, the more the engine, docs, and community will improve for all of us.

#3 "How many other engines offer a website with 3+ years worth of quality knowledge?"

All of the high-end game engine web sites offer years worth of detailed knowledge with a better signal-to-noise ratio than the Garage Games forums, at one time or another I've been a licensed developer for Unreal , RenderWare, Havok, Quake, and at least a half-dozen more that people hardly know. TGE is **not** in the same class as the latest Unreal, Half-life or Doom engines and tool sets, however, it does a very good job of attempting to compete with them.

TGE is difficult to get started in, especially for developers attempting to create non-FPS type games, documentation is getting better all the time, the Finney book helps, and there are other products in the pipeline that will alleviate many of the problems.

I gave TGE what I consider to be a glowing review, the negative aspects that I cited are not insurmountable issues and will be addressed eventually, and all products have areas of weakness. If I didn't believe in the product I never would have suggested to my editor at GDM that I review it.

During the review Jay Moore wanted me to add in more info on the upcoming plans for TGE & TSE, along with some of the 3rd party products in development but I had limited space in which to write and also had to give a snapshot report of the product at one particular moment in time.

I believe that I was qualified enough to write the review, I'm very familiar with TGE, I've been tinkering with it since GarageGames first released the engine and I'm about to start teaching it to yet another group of students a California University.

-- Your friendly GDM reviewer, "The Butthead"

#4 Lol good reply :D

#5 I, also, am 100% in agreement with those two critiscisms of Torque. You can go on about documentation and community for as long as you like, but the fact is that for someone very new to TGE doing even something very simple can take ages of fist banging to learn. Net code, control objects, ghosts, datablocks: these are complex to understand coming completely fresh to the engine, and I have seen no documentation (don't you dare link me the Torque networking doc) which makes these clear. It took several long winded conversations with Paul Dana before I had these concepts even vaguely understood. In fact, after I've finished Determinance, I plan on writing a doc to make getting into those areas easier for newcomers.

However, Torque has the features and the power, and from hearing the GG staff (especially Ben) talking about their plans after 1.3, I have nothing but respect for them: they clearly know which direction they need to take Torque in, and if I could bet on GG being here in five years, I would.

Ian

#6 Lol...too funny.

I guess there are worse names out there. ;-)

#7

Quote:A6 has workshops and tutorials for flight simulators, street fighters, space flight games, 2d games, isometric games, and more. Torque has FPS/3rd person and racing.

Although minor, I think this is where TGE needs to improve. There is no greater way to learn then by working examples, IMO.

The most challenging thing I have found so far with TGE is the content pipeline, that is, the process of getting your models and "stuff" into torque. The more accessible and easy it is to do this, the easier it would be for a beginner to get results.

For starters, I think there should be some sample rigged Milkshape characters (ie. not Max) put in the demo that can be used to create working interactive characters. This would make it incredibly simple for someone to make a mod... download the demo of milkshape, open up this template character, change the mesh and texture map, and instantly you can create your own character.

The other thing is maps/interiors. To make it easier for beginners, why not make some basic building blocks or prefab components. For exmaple, there could be walls, simple rooms, simple corridors/hallways, blocks, staircases, etc. This would allow beginners to easily throw together a simple working game map while working inside the Torque editor.

#8 Especially with its price and all :)

But I think you were right about those 2 flaws in Torque if you were comparing it to the high-end engines...

#9 I thought the review in GDM was very fair-minded. Of course, the two areas of improvement it pointed to are already being feverishly addressed and improved upon. GG has really pushed those areas recently, and we'll continue to do much more.

With TSE and other internal plans, we're also moving to keep the Torque family up with the absolute latest and best tech as well. So, though I'm obviously biased, I feel great about where we're at and where we're going.

The awesome thing to realize though is this... you have this $100 engine and serious, experienced, knowledgable people compare it toe-to-toe with engines from major studios... those engines that cost literally thousands of times more. We are working hard (it's 9am on the weekend and I'm at the office) to try to surpass even those mega heavy-hitters, but it's awesome that we're already playing in the same league. In my view, no other engine at our price point does anywhere near as much to help people who are serious about making games achieve their dreams.

GDM's review was very fair-minded and, I think, accurate. We're excited about where we're going with all of our improvements, so it's natural that Jay wanted to talk more about the big changes coming up, but I think Justin made a good call in his review. Thanks for giving us a fair shake. :)

#10 First off, I did not mean any offense with the name. It was tongue in cheek, and I hope it was recieved as such.

Second, I would like to clarify why I consider our negatives flat out wrong. This engine changes much to often for blanket docs. Read a few docs that were originally done 2-3 years ago, and you will find a lot of information thats no longer valid. Many resources from those days no longer work either, without quite a bit of help. A6 has great looking docs, but I wonder how many of those are verbatim correct. Many of them I have seen since the A4 release. IMHO, A6 is really the only other engine that we can compare docs with. If Torque was $500k as well, I'm pretty sure that would include a few weekends with Brian, Ben and company at my house helping me out.
Saying we are not newbie friendly is also unfair. Again, A6 is the only engine Im aware of that actually steps you through how to do something. Im sure ID would be more than happy to help me as well, but they would probably laugh their arses off if I was to ask 75% of the things that get asked here. Those here who are of or near the same league as ID license purchasers simply don't need that kind of help.

Perhaps GG should offer an addon service for TGE/TSE. $499,900 will get you 24/7 personal consultation. Then ID would have nothing at all on us :)

#11 Calling someone you absolutely do not know "a butthead" on a public, un-moderated forum simply because you disagree with something they wrote. Yes, I can see how that could be construed as humourous. Perhaps you would enjoy posting to Usenet, there are many like-minded people there.

With regard to the rest of your post, I'm not entirely sure what point you are arguing or even which engine you are supporting. iD? A6? TGE? The only thing I can say for sure is that you agree and support precisely the weaknesses I point out in my review.

I do wish to iterate once more that TGE is **NOT** in the same class as the latest iD, Epic or Valve engine. You are deluding yourself if you believe it is. Any one of those companies makes more money on a single license than GG probably makes in an entire year from the sale of TGE. Having said that, TGE is a damn capable engine that I am very happy with.

#12

Quote:I do wish to iterate once more that TGE is **NOT** in the same class as the latest iD, Epic or Valve engine.

I'm sure this is true, but in what ways exactly?... TGE/TSE can create results that are comparable, if not exactly the same, as any of those engines I think. Maybe its a performance issue.

#13 Well, I think everybody will have to wait until TSE is done before being able to objectively decide whether it's on-par with other next-gen engines. The gfx layer, material system, and other rendering aspects are certainly shaping up nicely. The new terrain engine's performance is pretty amazing in the builds so far. Things look good for the project. :)

We don't come anywhere near trying to claim that stock Torque's default rendering stacks up to that found in the latest "next-gen" stuff from the $300K+ engines. We recognize stock TGE's rendering isn't up there. That's why we're working on TSE. ;)

But TGE and TSE's networking is easily as good as any engine's, and it will continue to be so. The simulation layer is just as capable. We'll see what happens with physics. Among other internal enhancements, we'll be incorporating a component system which will make game coding easier for everyone. And of course, we've been working (and continue to work) on the two main issues Justin correctly singles out for improvement in his review, along with many other improvements.

As for rendering, I think TSE will stand shoulder-to-shoulder even with the best of the big boys. We'll hopefully hit our official release around the same time as some other next-gen engines.

The GDM article did mention the possibilities forthcoming with TSE, but reviewing the engine as it stand presently makes the most sense. He did a great job, the article was fair, and he clearly knows his stuff.

#14 Is this an online article? If so, could someone please post a link? Thanks.

#15 I think you need a GDM subscription to see it. My subscription was processed and approved on August 14th and I still have not yet seen my first issue.

Do I have to go to it? Or will it come to my email?

#16 I thought the review was a fair one, I enjoyed the read.

#17 @OtakuNoZoku - Thank you for the time, expertise and the high quality of your very level handed review. There are few people who have the depth of experience in the variety of engines and a hands-on experience with Torque able and willing to write this review. Your assessment lines up with our own evaluation for where TGE can use improvement.

@Wysardy - Game Developer Magazine is the printed version that usually has its articles available online only after the issue has been out for awhile.

#18 I think the review was very fair. Thanks Justin!

We'll fix all of the problems. More tutorials, installable Torque, better exporters, more documentation. We are just getting started!

Jeff Tunnell GG

#19 Huh. I read the review and I thought, "Cool. Sounds spot-on as far as I can tell."

I'm still a beginner in Torque (but kinda-sorta an old hand at game development), so it seemed like I was the EXACT targeted audience for the review.

"Lacking in documentation" - it sounds to me like this has been a pain point for GG and its customers for a long time, and they've been taking great strides to correct this deficiency. From a cursory glance (and reports from people who worked with Torque in the 'bad ol' days'), it looks to me like there have been a LOT of improvements since the reviewer began playing with Torque. But it still needs work.

"Hard to get started" - I think this is more debatable, but the lack of documentation would be a huge factor in this. Sure, you can play with the terrain and UI really easily. Getting some interiors & other models imported in is a little trickier, but not much harder than most other engines. But getting down to the nuts and bolts and making a game out of it still takes a pretty significant amount of effort - a key reason why, IMO, you see a lot of cool projects begun with Torque but comparitively few finished titles.

I am really impressed with Torque myself, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have room for improvement. Especially making it more newbie-friendly.

#20 Nice, I really think that the article was fair, and it did point out some key things. Torque is not Unreal, it just cant compete in some areas, but its sure as heck one of the best engines I've seen that I can actually dream of affording.