How to convince your inverstor

#1 Not to be negative. But no.

Dont think I'm being down on you or anything, but realistically speaking, why is a publisher going to fund YOU over any other team? There are a LOT of experienced game developers already struggling for work, what makes you think that publishers are going to get involved with a team thats never worked together?

You best bet is to forget about publishers and concentrate on doing your game. Get at least a good playable demo (that is, all elements of the game, in a single playable level), THEN try and pitch the game. But its still a long shot.

People end up spending considerable amount of money chasing publishers, without any return (and worse still, publishers end up keeping you "on the hook" by promising deals, saying it will be sorted out soon etc)

Thats not to say it couldnt happen for you, just that its highly unlikely.

#2 Thank you for writing your opinion, Phil!

Ok, let's change some variables. Assumed we managed ceteris paribus to recruit experienced (in game dev) programmers. Is the plan now realistic?

Second question. What do you think we need to change to be able to find an investor?

Thanks in advance,
Albert

#3 I have never known a publisher to put upfront money for something that wasn't created. My guess if it has happened, the person had a few games under their belt. If you did pull it off, I can't image what the publisher would want for a royality cut/creative control they are going to want for taking such a huge risk.

You might be able to get a non-publisher investor. But you say 10-12 months "developing costs" for you team? I assume you are talking about "pay" so at 20K a year for a 5 memember team you would be looking at $100,000 or more investment? Are you also looking at the investor providing Tools/PC/Whatever too?

Quote:
advisor who's university professor teaching game development on an university of applied science.

Does this university professor have any advice on game marketing a game idea or contacts in the game industry?

#4 Unfortunately he teaches only technical questions of game development and has no commercial experience on this topic.

#5 Albert,

Couple of additional thoughts that might help:
1 - If you present to an investor be sure to show a potential cost vs return on investment. I have seen a few (non-game) investor presentations in my time and thats the biggest mistake. They never get around to showing numbers because they are so wrapped up in "how cool" it is to do what they want to do.
2 - Maybe you should consider scaling back the game to a point where you and your team could fund it themselves. Many games fail because the game idea is just too big.

Hope that helps.

#6 I hate to be negative, but this post is extremely naive. Just posting it shows that you will have no chance of achieving your goal. I have noticed that most of the proven developers (except Phil, who just completed his stint at a commercial game developer) have chosen not to respond to this post because they have seen it too many times. If you Google the web or search around the forums and .plans here at GG, you will see many of the arguments against this type of approach to making games. We even run an entire conference based on these concepts.

I'm not trying to be a snob, but this forum does not have enough room to explain why you don't stand a chance. It is a little like the old saying about tyring to buy a car, i.e. "if you have to ask the price, then you can't afford it." In this case, the saying is more like, "if you have to ask, then you don't understand." In other words, you are asking the wrong question. You need to do a LOT more research and study.

-Jeff Tunnell GG

#7 Yea. I agree with Phil. You should finish one full level with most of the core gameplay elements in place before even trying to get a publisher on board.

@Jeff Tunnell

Quote:this forum does not have enough room to explain why you don't stand a chance

Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. That seems a bit harsh and the

Quote:I'm not trying to be a snob, but

only shows that you realise that that's what you appear to be. Although what you said in the rest of your post was completely true, indies should help eachother out. As far as I know, that's what GameBeavers and GarageGames are for. I think that it's outrageous that an employee would say something like that and it should be "Stricken from the record"! (I've always wanted to say that ;)

How are you to learn, without being taught??? If a person works at a fast food restaurant for all of their life, how can they be expected to know how to snag a publisher's attention, build a team, and create a game (Not necessarily in that order)?

I believe that it says on the associate page of the GG site that people will look up to you once you achieve the title, so you should always speak in a professional manner. Of course, the same rules obviously don't apply when you are an employee. Oh, I almost forgot, I'm not trying to be a snob, but....

#8 @Jeff

I remember a story by Ray Bradbury about a device which knew absolutely everything and a group of scientiest tried to ask it some questions. Everytime they get the answer "wrong question" because they spoken on different levels of undestanding. That's no use to discuss this way. If you say "no" please explain "why".

@all

Thank you guys for answering it really helps me. What I don't undestand so far is why people from Crytec managed to get money from Ubisoft. Everything they offered was an abstract demo of dinosaurs walking on an isle. I don't want to point my finger on IDSoftware and to say: "hey, if they can I can it too". I do undestand the difference between us but the guys from Crytec were in a similar situation. I say "similar" because something was different. I want to identify this "something".

#9 Think of it like a band trying to get a recording contract with a record company. If you have never played in a live situation and do not have a demo that they can listen to, then you have no chance attracting a label let alone talking to any of the A&R reps. But, if you had Slash and Ozzy in that same band, the labels would be interested because of those guy's proven track record.

#10 "Proven Success".

This is apparently what publishers want; that or something that gets their attention within the first 10 seconds of them seeing "it". The point being that if you've not got "proven success" (and you're not going to get it without doing something) then you're going to have to work damn hard making "it" to wow "them".

This is all pretty vague I know and I've not got a game-title under my belt but anyone who's tried to sell anything; house, car, boat will know that most of the time it's about painting the right picture, even if that picture isn't exactly accurate. There are rules to general selling and that's what you're doing here. If you can't make it good, make it shiny and if you can't make it shiny then you'd better go find someone more experienced to help you.

1. Make Demo.
2. Have Fun.
3. Tweak Demo.
4. Have Fun.
5. Make Demo Fun.
6. Have Fun.
7. Show it Everyone.
8. Make it more Fun.
9. Think about selling it.

- Melv.

#11 Guys, we've had this kind of discussion a lot. Specifically, there have been lots of stories (one that springs to mind is the talk from IGC 02? from the guy at EA.

Basically, publishers want:

1) No risk to them
2) Completed product
3) If the product isnt complete, they want a team they can trust to deliver the game on time.
4) The least amount of profit going to the developer.

I was probably being overtly optimistic :) in that mostly, you will stand almost NO chance of publisher funding. Perhaps a 1 in 1000 shot, perhaps less.

Listen to Jeff guys, he KNOWS what its like. If you havent been there, well, you havent been there, its as simple as that really.

#12 What I have to add probably isn't much beyond what Jeff & Phil have said --- and my experience in the deal-making side of things is largely secondhand. So take it with a grain of salt. But here's the harsh realities of the business right now as I see it:

Development studios are a dime-a-dozen right now. Teams with LOTS of experience under their belts are fighting tooth-and-nail for poor-paying contract work for even the mid-tier publishers (the guys who crank out the shovelware with game names you don't recognize, who also sometimes have problems paying their bills). Getting your own COMPLETED, HIGH-QUALITY GAME accepted by a publisher is a struggle for even the top studios.

Remember that - these publishers are turning down completed game after completed game from top-name studios. They are cancelling projects that THEY contracted for left and right that are deep into production... and it's not just because the game stinks or is going over schedule.

If you are a no-name group with no list of completed game titles to your credit, and not even a fully completed game you are trying to pitch, you have to realize that you are entering a highly competitive environment at the absolute BOTTOM of the pack, where only the top 25% are going to manage to even survive (and then only barely). You are pretty much going to have to walk on water AND be very, very lucky.

I *HAVE* seen it happen, mind you... but that was many years ago when the industry was different from how it is now, and while the team had no consumer-level game experience, they were all seasoned veterans with years of experience in related fields, with a top-notch management team.

It may also be possible to do it if you have just the most freaking amazing game ever seen already to be delivered. We're talking something that makes Doom 3 look like Doom 1. But if you are already there, you don't really need a publisher to fund much development, do you? That's the catch 22 of seeking investment: It's only readily available when you don't really need it. AFTER you are already kicking butt and taking names, you'll find lots of people who would LOVE to get their grubby little paws on a piece of your pie.

If you are seeking outside investment from a VC (Vulture Capitalist... er, I mean Venture Capitalist! Right, that's what I meant), you are going to need a killer business plan with a skilled, known management team in order to get funding from an invester specializing in start-ups. Alternately, if you can manage to bootstrap yourselves, survive on your own, AND demonstrate real growth, you may be able to gain outside investment if you have a top-notch business plan that proves that you could grow much faster with outside funding and deliver a high return-on-investment. It wouldn't hurt to have some "name" at the top of your management team, too.

Anyway, that's how it looks from the mouse-eye view from the inside. Just to kinda put it into perspective so you know what people are saying when they say, "You'll have a snowball's chance in Hell." This is why. Right now, the traditional, mainstream world of games is a brutal, cutthroat world --- and the failures and struggles you read about in gaming magazines and gaming sites are only the tip of a vast iceberg. Most companies begin, work their butts off, and die without even getting noticed.

#13

Quote:Everything they offered was an abstract demo of dinosaurs walking on an isle.

A tech demo that was used by nVidia to demo the Geforce 3, using the then brand new hardware pixel and vertex shaders.

I think if you can stumble into that kind of new technology wave and get exposure that good, the same could happen for you. But realisitically? Probably not going to happen.

#14 As a side note, instead of a venture capitalist, you MIGHT (as a very slim possibility) find an "angel" investor, somebody with gobs of liquid cash who is willing to back you out of the goodness of their heart, and a decent cut of the profits (or the gross if they're smart). Unfortunately, angel investors are usually along the lines of of your rich uncle or slightly daft grandmother, somebody who could kick in a couple hundred bucks but not anything you could live off of, much less actually get a product out the door.

The only other option that has ANY chance of hauling in cash would be virtual panhandling. Mechanically, it's very simple. Set up a PayPal account, set up a web site, add your link, and then beg shamelessly. You may sneer and turn your nose up at it, but the idea has worked in other media. The most telling examples I can think of would be webcomics. Randy Milholland (of Something Positive) and Michael Poe (of Exploitation Now and Errant Story) have both gone the donation route, and met their goals nicely. In Milholland's case, he raised around $26,000 or about a year's salary at the sucky job he was trying to get away from. The thing to keep in mind is that you will probably need to track those donations very carefully, logging them as income for your company. (Yes, the IRS will have NO sense of humor in this regard.)

In a similar vein, and one that would certainly serve to expand your portfolio as well as increase your revenues, would be to get a web-based game of some sort up and running, tease people with a limited version and then make the full version a "donationware" game, whereby making a PayPal donation gets your players access to the full (and future) goodies of your game. Best example of this is Adventure Quest. Again, you will probably have to track donations VERY carefully, and keep in mind that the money spent will probably be plowed back into the server/bandwidth costs, so a wildly successful game could theoretically become a victim of its own success.

#15 I don't know if the whole Minions of Mirth story will ever be told... though, here are some highlights:

We've received donations of time, work, content, and $$$(thanks again folks!)
We've received pre-orders (woot!)
We found a really good investor (woot!)

The harsh reality is:

If I am making minimum wage in 2005, I will be very proud/thankful/what have you. Though we could be doing much, much, much better, this isn't the expectation.

-Josh Ritter
Dungeon Master
Prairie Games

#16

Quote:I hate to be negative, but this post is extremely naive.

Quote:I think that it's outrageous that an employee would say something like that and it should be "Stricken from the record"! (I've always wanted to say that ;)

It's tough love and I think being the more blunt about it the better. I always use filmmaking analogies -- imagine assembling a cast of actors, writing a script, doing a storyboard, then shooting a low-budget VHS version of it, or just a few scenes, or a short version of it, and sending it to Paramount or Fox to ask for finishing funds. It would never happen (never meaning 1 in a million shot).

For me, the bottom line is if you're passionate about the title you are making or want to make, nothing will stop you. Robert Rodriguez made his first film using money from medical experiments performed on him. I'm not saying go that route, only that if you need to make the title, if it's in your blood, you'll do whatever it takes. Funding from a major dev house is not an obstacle except if you make it one.

According to the IGF, their average indie entry cost about $6,000. Think about that, about what your peers are doing -- making cool, fun, prize-winning games for about $6k. That's not chump change, but that's also not an amount you can't raise on your own (eating PB&J for a year comes to mind...)

#17

Quote:Basically, publishers want: 1) No risk to them

Right, and the whole advantage that indie developers have is that we can make innovative titles that haven't been "proven" in the marketplace before, so to try to get funding from an investor you have to kill that entire innovation leverage, making the whole excercise pointlesss!

#18 @Joshua

Quote:
imagine assembling a cast of actors, writing a script, doing a storyboard, then shooting a low-budget VHS version of it, or just a few scenes, or a short version of it, and sending it to Paramount or Fox to ask for finishing funds. It would never happen (never meaning 1 in a million shot).

The upcoming movie "Sky Captain & The World of Tomorrow" came about from virtually that very scenario, the only difference being that it was DV tape instead of VHS. :) Still, the point should be well taken.

#19

Quote:
The upcoming movie "Sky Captain & The World of Tomorrow" came about from virtually that very scenario, the only difference being that it was DV tape instead of VHS. :) Still, the point should be well taken.

And I heard someone won the lotery by purchasing 1 ticket!

From GG Publishing FAQ
It states that they recieve so many requests that they can't even e-mail back to everyone back to say "thanks for your interested, but no thanks" GG isn't the biggest game publisher in the world either. My point? Its very hard to get noticed and there are many man who have tried. Those who have tried often have complete demos with playable proven or I am sure in many cases not proven.

Albert's Question

Quote:
What do you think, will it work?

Answer from the posts above - Highly unlikely to never a million years!

So if they want to head down that route because they feel they really have purchased the winning lottery ticket, then by all means quit your day job. :-) But they asked what people thought and the people answered honestly how they felt. Can't fault them for answering the question.

#20 Interesting that you should mention Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow as its perhaps a good example of how damn hard you have to work to make a break. You mention it above as if he just whipped it up, sent it off and got instant financing.

The guy worked on it for 10 years. He had a film and animation background already.

This is from a report from the NY Times:

Quote:By 1994, he had struck upon the idea of filming an entire movie by himself, at home, with a blue screen set up right in his apartment. He began to create what he was calling "the World of Tomorrow".

"After four years of working on it every day, he had six minutes."

Not exactly a walk in the park. He then got lucky through a family friend having a movie producer over for dinner and showing her the tape. Even with the film producer on board they couldn't find proper funding.

Quote:"Jon Avnet wanted that kind of latitude for Conran, but he couldn't find a studio that would offer it. So Avnet built one. He spent nearly a quarter-million dollars to turn a former printing press in industrial Van Nuys into Sky Captain's headquarters, lining nearly every inch with computers and constructing a complete digital-effects house from scratch, with a small blue-screen stage in the back. ''At one point,'' Avnet told me, ''I spent way too much money.'' He estimates he spent about $1 million to develop the film, through his company, Brooklyn Films."

So he spent a million dollars building up a set before Paramount decided to come on board.

This guy worked very very hard, and got lucky on top of that. I think thats a very good example of whats required to make it in the industry (even if it is a film example rather than a game example).

Edit: Heres the link to the [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/14/magazine/14CONRAN.html?ex=1093838400&en=504b4ddd6d137266&ei=5070"]NY Times article[/url] in case anyones interested, it was an interesting read :)