Player Tutorial for real Dummies
by Apparatus · in Torque Game Engine · 08/27/2004 (2:12 am) · 26 replies
Ok, so ive made almost everything work in my engine but the player. I am using max 5.1 sp.1 and the exporter provided in the matrix page. Maybe i am too dumb or ive read not the entire documentation but i couldn't find a decent tutorial on setting up the player - start to finish. In my view, a doc like this should have:
1: obtain (build) the player mesh. (with links and such to tut. webs)
2: setup a skelleton (or use biped from max)
3: envelope the mesh to the skelleton (using what is best: skin? physique? pros and cons)
4: create the needed nodes (with a subdoc about the nodes and the importance of each)
5: - here is my big problem: does nodes need to be linked to enything? if yes, wich ones to what? I believe eye goes to head but say my player is a matchbox or a ball, there's only the mesh 'player_ball', no "head" to attach (link) the eye and cam to.
6: create some animations.
7: create the bound box.
8:write the cfg file (btw, i always get "cfg file not found" in dump altough my cfg is there)
9: EXPORT. i believe to avoid getting too many cfg files error is better to export each shape in its own dir. Dummy, I know, but people new to this don't know it.
10. Get the player in game. Since some models show up in show tool but crashes torque.
11. Always provide the CVS version that worked with the tools in question.
12: List open.
As footnote, considering today's hardware, explain the multires in depth or tell us how not to use it. Sounds dummy, but I don't wan't LOD and such in my game, so multires only troubles the pipeline.
Note. I will provide a player mesh with texture for this (collective i hope) resource. Because it keeps us from dev. and time is important here.
hope to get some feedback on this, thank you all.
ORKFATHER team salutes you all.
1: obtain (build) the player mesh. (with links and such to tut. webs)
2: setup a skelleton (or use biped from max)
3: envelope the mesh to the skelleton (using what is best: skin? physique? pros and cons)
4: create the needed nodes (with a subdoc about the nodes and the importance of each)
5: - here is my big problem: does nodes need to be linked to enything? if yes, wich ones to what? I believe eye goes to head but say my player is a matchbox or a ball, there's only the mesh 'player_ball', no "head" to attach (link) the eye and cam to.
6: create some animations.
7: create the bound box.
8:write the cfg file (btw, i always get "cfg file not found" in dump altough my cfg is there)
9: EXPORT. i believe to avoid getting too many cfg files error is better to export each shape in its own dir. Dummy, I know, but people new to this don't know it.
10. Get the player in game. Since some models show up in show tool but crashes torque.
11. Always provide the CVS version that worked with the tools in question.
12: List open.
As footnote, considering today's hardware, explain the multires in depth or tell us how not to use it. Sounds dummy, but I don't wan't LOD and such in my game, so multires only troubles the pipeline.
Note. I will provide a player mesh with texture for this (collective i hope) resource. Because it keeps us from dev. and time is important here.
hope to get some feedback on this, thank you all.
ORKFATHER team salutes you all.
About the author
Tarakibu Studio
#2
EDIT: 'demand' is a wrong term and seem to have offended eagle eyes. Pardon my English then, thank God ime not the one writing the codei also happend to misspell sometimes:). I should've probably write simply 'ask'. Cheers
08/27/2004 (7:30 am)
There is NO complete tutorial, covering all the aspects. it will be nice to get one posted here. i find logical what i demand, a complete, step by step, "how to get a player in game", starting from scratch. I also found frustrating issues (important ones) covered by third parties. Garage Games should take some time (altough i know they are busy) to cover them all. And ime thinking a DTS node listing full feature for the moment. Anyways, while we go trough Torque, our learnng files will be presented to the community as resources.EDIT: 'demand' is a wrong term and seem to have offended eagle eyes. Pardon my English then, thank God ime not the one writing the codei also happend to misspell sometimes:). I should've probably write simply 'ask'. Cheers
#3
Demand? You make the rules now? Here's the deal, as logical as it may seem to you to have all of us make you a moddeler, I wouldn't hold your breath on it happening in this lifetime. It could take you an entire day to UV map a model in Max, how do you propose to explain an all day long process? The very nature of what you ask for is best illustrated in about a gigabyte of video that would take you all day to watch, and take you days or even weeks to learn. All the info you need is ready and waiting for you, and it's all free, so the only thing left for you to do is get to work on it. If you want everything easy and explained in details you can understand, then you are probably in the wrong buisness.
Why would you make what already exists?
www.garagegames.com/docs/torque/general/ch08.php
(Dont' come back with "There is no node listing at that link" or most people will probably ignore you.)
You said you made everything work in your engine but the player. Fine, if the player is all you are having trouble with, then the above link should pretty well complete your TGE education. If you can't get your player to work after reading and re-reading the above resource, then send me the player file and I'll tell you what you did wrong.
08/27/2004 (9:41 am)
Quote:i find logical what i demand, a complete, step by step, "how to get a player in game", starting from scratch
Demand? You make the rules now? Here's the deal, as logical as it may seem to you to have all of us make you a moddeler, I wouldn't hold your breath on it happening in this lifetime. It could take you an entire day to UV map a model in Max, how do you propose to explain an all day long process? The very nature of what you ask for is best illustrated in about a gigabyte of video that would take you all day to watch, and take you days or even weeks to learn. All the info you need is ready and waiting for you, and it's all free, so the only thing left for you to do is get to work on it. If you want everything easy and explained in details you can understand, then you are probably in the wrong buisness.
Quote:And ime thinking a DTS node listing full feature for the moment.
Why would you make what already exists?
www.garagegames.com/docs/torque/general/ch08.php
(Dont' come back with "There is no node listing at that link" or most people will probably ignore you.)
You said you made everything work in your engine but the player. Fine, if the player is all you are having trouble with, then the above link should pretty well complete your TGE education. If you can't get your player to work after reading and re-reading the above resource, then send me the player file and I'll tell you what you did wrong.
#4
I paid for this and I love it also (TGE) so I expect you understand not all of us around the world are native english speakers. 'Demand' may sound weird, my view was diffrent. Since is a community around here I expected not direct help or hints but nice feedback on an ideea. I even offered my part of help for a future reffrence for the community, hence, 4 people even like you.To be honest your position surprises me and is the first time I doubt my intelligence on choosing TGE community. And for the record ime not just a modeller seeking desperatelly for help, no. And about the node listing, I should;ve been more precise: it's unreadable. I use Opera and whatever zoom I apply there are small boxes green and such. I even saved it on my desktop and tried to get it clearer. Whatever. Should I mention that I also have printed a thick brick of paper by now from the online docs?
Call me silly but where is that huge video you are talking about? Did I miss anything? Are u a special member and have acces we ordinary people don't? please enlight me. And pay more patience to newbees before someone starts wondering what's so special around. and leave. Wich makes the whole thing dull and null. Sorry. I didn't thought for a second I will upset or offence someone. My respects to all hardworking out there.
SALUTES,
08/27/2004 (12:48 pm)
"Demand? You make the rules now? Here's the deal, as logical as it may seem to you to have all of us make you a moddeler, I wouldn't hold your breath on it happening in this lifetime." I take this as an useless offence. You don't know me to judge me. I paid for this and I love it also (TGE) so I expect you understand not all of us around the world are native english speakers. 'Demand' may sound weird, my view was diffrent. Since is a community around here I expected not direct help or hints but nice feedback on an ideea. I even offered my part of help for a future reffrence for the community, hence, 4 people even like you.To be honest your position surprises me and is the first time I doubt my intelligence on choosing TGE community. And for the record ime not just a modeller seeking desperatelly for help, no. And about the node listing, I should;ve been more precise: it's unreadable. I use Opera and whatever zoom I apply there are small boxes green and such. I even saved it on my desktop and tried to get it clearer. Whatever. Should I mention that I also have printed a thick brick of paper by now from the online docs?
Call me silly but where is that huge video you are talking about? Did I miss anything? Are u a special member and have acces we ordinary people don't? please enlight me. And pay more patience to newbees before someone starts wondering what's so special around. and leave. Wich makes the whole thing dull and null. Sorry. I didn't thought for a second I will upset or offence someone. My respects to all hardworking out there.
SALUTES,
#5
Now, having wrote the original 3dsMAX documentation, I have to take some issues with what you are saying. When writing the docs, I wrote a alot and actually deleted sections of it because it was so long I was having trouble finding people to proof read the whole thing.. it was just too much. Doing a step by step tutorial would take A LOT of time and would be hundreds of pages long.
As it is, people are obviously not reading the whole thing, as all of the information you are asking for (particularly items 3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9) are in the documentation.
The documentation does assume that one has a knowledge of 3d studioMAX, character construction and rigging, and animation. The docs specifically stuck to what is important in regards to getting a DTS shape into the TGE.
In terms of the node listing.. I think people are being a little to literal in terms of what is needed to get a shape working in the game. The exporter and the game is not all that demanding in terms of naming conventions or 'proper' setup. It is extrememly flexible in terms of what is 'required' to get something working.
I have offered before, and will offer now again. If someone wants to take up a collection to pay me while I create a 'start to finish-complete' tutorial covering everything you mentioned, I'd be into it. I estimate it would take me approximately 2 months to create a tutorial with the depth you are suggesting. At our contract work rates, that would be about $16,000 US ...
08/27/2004 (2:53 pm)
I am working on a character content pack that will have additional documentation about how to get a character working in the TGE.Now, having wrote the original 3dsMAX documentation, I have to take some issues with what you are saying. When writing the docs, I wrote a alot and actually deleted sections of it because it was so long I was having trouble finding people to proof read the whole thing.. it was just too much. Doing a step by step tutorial would take A LOT of time and would be hundreds of pages long.
As it is, people are obviously not reading the whole thing, as all of the information you are asking for (particularly items 3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9) are in the documentation.
The documentation does assume that one has a knowledge of 3d studioMAX, character construction and rigging, and animation. The docs specifically stuck to what is important in regards to getting a DTS shape into the TGE.
In terms of the node listing.. I think people are being a little to literal in terms of what is needed to get a shape working in the game. The exporter and the game is not all that demanding in terms of naming conventions or 'proper' setup. It is extrememly flexible in terms of what is 'required' to get something working.
I have offered before, and will offer now again. If someone wants to take up a collection to pay me while I create a 'start to finish-complete' tutorial covering everything you mentioned, I'd be into it. I estimate it would take me approximately 2 months to create a tutorial with the depth you are suggesting. At our contract work rates, that would be about $16,000 US ...
#6
Modeling
As it is clearly explained in the documentation, you are expected to have some knowledge of how to use your 3D application to produce artwork, this includes modeling.
If you need to learn how to model do the tutorials that come with your software, buy a book about your 3D applications, read some tutorials on the web, whatever. The onus is on you to learn how to use your application, not on GarageGames or this community. If you want links to tutorials, press the "Help" or "Tutorials" link from within your application, look in the resources here on GarageGames or look stuff up on google.
Skeleton
Since any skeleton/rig will work, I do not see why there should be a tutorial that says 'this is how you do it'. All that this will do is confuse people into thinking that stuff must be done one way when it truely is open ended.
Secondly as with the modeling subject that I previously mentioned. Learning how to setup a skeleton/rig is something that is covered in a plethora of other resources such as your 3D applications tutorials, books, web links, etc..
Skinning
Contrary to MOD belief, skinning actually refers to binding your geometry to a skeleton/rig. How you do this is clearly explained in your 3D applications turorials, books and numerous other resources if you do not know how.
As it is clearly defined in the DTS Exporters (and the FAQs here on GG), you should try to use the Skin modifier from within Max at all times as this will allow you full access to all of the DTS/DSQ functionality. You can use the physique modifier but only if you export as a 'morph' animation (this is also clearly explained in the DTS exporter documentation).
Nodes
All of the DTS nodes that you may need to use are explained in the DTS Exporter Documentation and in a supplemental DTS Nodes PDF file that I wrote up a long time ago (and is linked numerous times in the Torque documentation and as a resource).
DTS Hierarchy
This is actually explained in both the DTS Exporter Docs as well as the DTS Nodes PDF. If you are still confused there are also numerous source/sample 3D files for you to open up and look at too.
I can understand that this part may be confusing, but between the docs, sample files and the FAQ most issues are covered. If you have problems with something let us know and we will try to help you out and make some way of getting it documented if it is a common problem that people have.
Animations
Animating is once again covered in your 3D application tutorials, books, web resources and more. There have also been numerous discussions here on the GG forums too (you can find them by using the search tool). To sum things up though, animate like you normally do and then setup the 'sequence helper' node properly as described in the DTS Exporter Docs.
Bounds Node
Create a box, ensure that everything in your scene is contained within it. Nuff said.
CFG Files
Just copy and paste the sample CFGs or use the sample ones that are provided to you.
If the exporter says that it cannot find a CFG file, check and ensure that the CFG file is in the exact same location as the file that you are exporting from.
08/27/2004 (2:53 pm)
I have to agree with Gonzo here on most of his points regarding the exporter that I will explain below...Modeling
As it is clearly explained in the documentation, you are expected to have some knowledge of how to use your 3D application to produce artwork, this includes modeling.
If you need to learn how to model do the tutorials that come with your software, buy a book about your 3D applications, read some tutorials on the web, whatever. The onus is on you to learn how to use your application, not on GarageGames or this community. If you want links to tutorials, press the "Help" or "Tutorials" link from within your application, look in the resources here on GarageGames or look stuff up on google.
Skeleton
Since any skeleton/rig will work, I do not see why there should be a tutorial that says 'this is how you do it'. All that this will do is confuse people into thinking that stuff must be done one way when it truely is open ended.
Secondly as with the modeling subject that I previously mentioned. Learning how to setup a skeleton/rig is something that is covered in a plethora of other resources such as your 3D applications tutorials, books, web links, etc..
Skinning
Contrary to MOD belief, skinning actually refers to binding your geometry to a skeleton/rig. How you do this is clearly explained in your 3D applications turorials, books and numerous other resources if you do not know how.
As it is clearly defined in the DTS Exporters (and the FAQs here on GG), you should try to use the Skin modifier from within Max at all times as this will allow you full access to all of the DTS/DSQ functionality. You can use the physique modifier but only if you export as a 'morph' animation (this is also clearly explained in the DTS exporter documentation).
Nodes
All of the DTS nodes that you may need to use are explained in the DTS Exporter Documentation and in a supplemental DTS Nodes PDF file that I wrote up a long time ago (and is linked numerous times in the Torque documentation and as a resource).
DTS Hierarchy
This is actually explained in both the DTS Exporter Docs as well as the DTS Nodes PDF. If you are still confused there are also numerous source/sample 3D files for you to open up and look at too.
I can understand that this part may be confusing, but between the docs, sample files and the FAQ most issues are covered. If you have problems with something let us know and we will try to help you out and make some way of getting it documented if it is a common problem that people have.
Animations
Animating is once again covered in your 3D application tutorials, books, web resources and more. There have also been numerous discussions here on the GG forums too (you can find them by using the search tool). To sum things up though, animate like you normally do and then setup the 'sequence helper' node properly as described in the DTS Exporter Docs.
Bounds Node
Create a box, ensure that everything in your scene is contained within it. Nuff said.
CFG Files
Just copy and paste the sample CFGs or use the sample ones that are provided to you.
If the exporter says that it cannot find a CFG file, check and ensure that the CFG file is in the exact same location as the file that you are exporting from.
#7
To my knowledge this is clearly explained in the first part of the DTS Exporter Docs. Perhaps you should explain what is troubling you because it isn't troubling other users to my knowledge.
Summary
Developing artwork for a game is difficult, developing 3D art is even more difficult. Do not think that we are being rude here when we smirk at these suggestions, we are simply laughing because what you expect is unreasonable and is primarily something that the artist is expected to know and learn on their own. If the information is Torque Specific (such as the DTS Exporter) then yes it is provided since it is not common knowledge.
Also the reason why there is documentation and not tutorials is simply because tutorials do not work. Tutorials only show you how to follow what you are being shown, they do not actually teach you anything nor give you information on what is going on and why it is happening. since the exporter is versatile and powerful and allows you to do things multiple ways, you can obviously see why a tutorial simply doesn't work.
If you wanted more advanced documentation that is another matter on its own. The simple fact is that there is not enough demand there for someone to take the time and write documentation that is more indepth than what is there.
The community is here to help you, but you need to understand that we also expect you to be able to help yourself too.
Logan
08/27/2004 (2:54 pm)
MultiResTo my knowledge this is clearly explained in the first part of the DTS Exporter Docs. Perhaps you should explain what is troubling you because it isn't troubling other users to my knowledge.
Summary
Developing artwork for a game is difficult, developing 3D art is even more difficult. Do not think that we are being rude here when we smirk at these suggestions, we are simply laughing because what you expect is unreasonable and is primarily something that the artist is expected to know and learn on their own. If the information is Torque Specific (such as the DTS Exporter) then yes it is provided since it is not common knowledge.
Also the reason why there is documentation and not tutorials is simply because tutorials do not work. Tutorials only show you how to follow what you are being shown, they do not actually teach you anything nor give you information on what is going on and why it is happening. since the exporter is versatile and powerful and allows you to do things multiple ways, you can obviously see why a tutorial simply doesn't work.
If you wanted more advanced documentation that is another matter on its own. The simple fact is that there is not enough demand there for someone to take the time and write documentation that is more indepth than what is there.
The community is here to help you, but you need to understand that we also expect you to be able to help yourself too.
Logan
#10
If that's going to take too much time, I'll take a Maya file (I have Maya 6) of the orc or blue guy or whatever is a complete player model and take the screenshots myself.
I know it's not a huge deal, but it would probably trim a few complaints.
08/27/2004 (3:46 pm)
It would be nice for those of use without Max (i.e. Maya users) to have a better listing. Some of the names are cut off in that sample, too. I will be happy to composite multiple screenshots into one nice, high-res version if someone could post/email such screenshots to me. If you're going to email something, please don't send more than 5meg at once. So, if someone with max will zoom in to the hierarchy just close enough that all the text for the node is visible, then take screenshots of all of it, I can "sew" them together and make various resolutions. If that's going to take too much time, I'll take a Maya file (I have Maya 6) of the orc or blue guy or whatever is a complete player model and take the screenshots myself.
I know it's not a huge deal, but it would probably trim a few complaints.
#12
Node listing of nodes needed for a player shape:
eye
cam
Mount0(if you want to mount a weapon using default scripts)
does not matter where they are attached as long as they are in the heirarchy if you are using your own animations. If you intend to use the default player animations, you will need to match both the naming and orientation of the skeleton in the base shape.
08/27/2004 (4:08 pm)
I don't have a Maya file to give out.. but the setup is similar to the max files.Node listing of nodes needed for a player shape:
eye
cam
Mount0(if you want to mount a weapon using default scripts)
does not matter where they are attached as long as they are in the heirarchy if you are using your own animations. If you intend to use the default player animations, you will need to match both the naming and orientation of the skeleton in the base shape.
#13
Listen, I didn't mean to sound rude, I was just getting straight to the point. As you can see from the responses from Logan and Joe what you ask for may sound reasonable and easy, but it simply is not.
Even if you think I'm a total jerk, there is no reason to blame the community for my actions. There are plenty of people here that offer help on a daily basis out of the goodness of their hearts, no reason to badmouth them on my account. And not to toot my own horn, but I also spend a great deal of time trying to solve problems for others at no cost to anyone but me. Now, if you want some incredibly detailed modelling information from start to finish this is where you need to start. In addition to various short tut's on texturing and such, thre are 8 videos that show in great detail the steps to making a character model. Beware, it's about 2 gigs of video but well worth it...
www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/tutorial.htm
@ Logan
Thank you for that, I meant to say something similar to that in my original post but it never made it to type. That point should be at the very top of the documentation for the very reason that people need to know that there is more than one way to do things "right" and that with the exception of a few set conventions any moddeler should be able to tune his skills to Torque's needs without having to relearn everything. That being said, let me move on to Joe...
@ Joe
I once made some not so flattering comments about your documentation based on the complaints from numerous modellers and from my own mistake of "glance and go" document reading. I was wrong, so were they. After being bombarded through e-mail for help on the moddeling subject I decided to sit down with your docs and once and for all determine where your documentation was at fault. Much to my surprise it wasn't anyones fault but their own. I believe you are 100% correct when you say people are obviously not reading the documentation because when I sat down to do this experiment I knew absolutely nothing about modeling for TGE, and now I can take a premade model that was not even meant to be used in torque, and get it working in Torque within a day or two. Using your documentation I was able to get not only get a player model into the game for the first time, but I got it complete with eye and cam nodes, mounts for weapons, and even the root and run animations. Since I'm a coder, and NOT a moddeler, I would have to say that if I can get a model to work with your docs, ANY moddeler should be able to do it as well.
For those that want a larger node listing image from the blueguy, get it Here
08/27/2004 (6:28 pm)
@ LaurentiuListen, I didn't mean to sound rude, I was just getting straight to the point. As you can see from the responses from Logan and Joe what you ask for may sound reasonable and easy, but it simply is not.
Quote:To be honest your position surprises me and is the first time I doubt my intelligence on choosing TGE community.
Even if you think I'm a total jerk, there is no reason to blame the community for my actions. There are plenty of people here that offer help on a daily basis out of the goodness of their hearts, no reason to badmouth them on my account. And not to toot my own horn, but I also spend a great deal of time trying to solve problems for others at no cost to anyone but me. Now, if you want some incredibly detailed modelling information from start to finish this is where you need to start. In addition to various short tut's on texturing and such, thre are 8 videos that show in great detail the steps to making a character model. Beware, it's about 2 gigs of video but well worth it...
www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/tutorial.htm
@ Logan
Quote:I do not see why there should be a tutorial that says 'this is how you do it'. All that this will do is confuse people into thinking that stuff must be done one way when it truely is open ended.
Thank you for that, I meant to say something similar to that in my original post but it never made it to type. That point should be at the very top of the documentation for the very reason that people need to know that there is more than one way to do things "right" and that with the exception of a few set conventions any moddeler should be able to tune his skills to Torque's needs without having to relearn everything. That being said, let me move on to Joe...
@ Joe
Quote:As it is, people are obviously not reading the whole thing, as all of the information you are asking for (particularly items 3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9) are in the documentation.
I once made some not so flattering comments about your documentation based on the complaints from numerous modellers and from my own mistake of "glance and go" document reading. I was wrong, so were they. After being bombarded through e-mail for help on the moddeling subject I decided to sit down with your docs and once and for all determine where your documentation was at fault. Much to my surprise it wasn't anyones fault but their own. I believe you are 100% correct when you say people are obviously not reading the documentation because when I sat down to do this experiment I knew absolutely nothing about modeling for TGE, and now I can take a premade model that was not even meant to be used in torque, and get it working in Torque within a day or two. Using your documentation I was able to get not only get a player model into the game for the first time, but I got it complete with eye and cam nodes, mounts for weapons, and even the root and run animations. Since I'm a coder, and NOT a moddeler, I would have to say that if I can get a model to work with your docs, ANY moddeler should be able to do it as well.
For those that want a larger node listing image from the blueguy, get it Here
#14
alwaysexport:
cam
eye
Mount0
to make sure that they would not be culled out.
I exported the model, and in player.cs (in server scripts) I changed, in the pleyerdata datablock, this:
shapeFile = "~/data/shapes/player/player.dts";
to this:
shapeFile = "~/data/shapes/health/health.dts";
then I launched the game.
This is what I got.
Total time investment. 10 minutes. Adherence to the node naming convention. (cam, eye, Mount0) and I have a workign player.
The whole thig with everyone being so 'anti-tutorial' is just that the tutorials are very misleading. They lead you to believe that you have to jump through hoops to get things working. Not true. Sure, there are a ton of little 'gotchas' and things you need to know before you can make a fully working game ready player model. But you need to learn to crawl first.. don't expect to read a 1 page read me and be able to learn what it has taken me (and other 3d artists at the proferssional level) YEARS to learn (note that I started working in 3d in 1993).
Also note that I was able to get a shape not intended to be a player (but ready to export to DTS) to be a player in less than 10 minutes by adding three nodes and typing 4 lines of script (if one could consider that script)
take the time and read the docs that exist, and take the time to learn from the people that are trying to teach. Don't try to make this process harder than it is, and don't ask us to make it any easier from a modeling standpoint. If you know 3d, getting a model to export takes no time at all. if you are a 3d n00b, you will have some problems. We can be understanding and help you to learn, but to cop an attitude about it like you are entitled to demand we hold your hand while you go through the proverbial 'potty training' phase is a bit much.
NOTE: I made sure I chose a shape with an animation. The player code expects that it has at least one animation. if the object you choose to use a player has NO animation, the game will crash. Note that there is no special namign convention needed. My sequence was named 'foo'. This may have been changed in the recent HEAD.
NOTE#2: You don't actually need the mount0 and cam nodes.. they will default to the bounding boxes transform. The weapon will mount there (often underground and hard to see) and the 3rd person camera will act kind of wonky. without the eye node, the game will refuse to run.
08/27/2004 (7:13 pm)
In this example.. I opened the health powerup model from thinktanks.. added the nodes can,eye, and Mount 0. I created a .cfg file and put it in the directory with the max model. In this file I put alwaysexport:
cam
eye
Mount0
to make sure that they would not be culled out.
I exported the model, and in player.cs (in server scripts) I changed, in the pleyerdata datablock, this:
shapeFile = "~/data/shapes/player/player.dts";
to this:
shapeFile = "~/data/shapes/health/health.dts";
then I launched the game.
This is what I got.
Total time investment. 10 minutes. Adherence to the node naming convention. (cam, eye, Mount0) and I have a workign player.
The whole thig with everyone being so 'anti-tutorial' is just that the tutorials are very misleading. They lead you to believe that you have to jump through hoops to get things working. Not true. Sure, there are a ton of little 'gotchas' and things you need to know before you can make a fully working game ready player model. But you need to learn to crawl first.. don't expect to read a 1 page read me and be able to learn what it has taken me (and other 3d artists at the proferssional level) YEARS to learn (note that I started working in 3d in 1993).
Also note that I was able to get a shape not intended to be a player (but ready to export to DTS) to be a player in less than 10 minutes by adding three nodes and typing 4 lines of script (if one could consider that script)
take the time and read the docs that exist, and take the time to learn from the people that are trying to teach. Don't try to make this process harder than it is, and don't ask us to make it any easier from a modeling standpoint. If you know 3d, getting a model to export takes no time at all. if you are a 3d n00b, you will have some problems. We can be understanding and help you to learn, but to cop an attitude about it like you are entitled to demand we hold your hand while you go through the proverbial 'potty training' phase is a bit much.
NOTE: I made sure I chose a shape with an animation. The player code expects that it has at least one animation. if the object you choose to use a player has NO animation, the game will crash. Note that there is no special namign convention needed. My sequence was named 'foo'. This may have been changed in the recent HEAD.
NOTE#2: You don't actually need the mount0 and cam nodes.. they will default to the bounding boxes transform. The weapon will mount there (often underground and hard to see) and the 3rd person camera will act kind of wonky. without the eye node, the game will refuse to run.
#15
first of all, my ideea was as is follows:
1: obtain (build) the player mesh. (with links and such to tut. webs)
general info about this, not step by step tutorial on modelling :). info about maximum polycount, issues like 'never leave a hole in your mesh and such' etc. axis orientation in max to fit the axis orientation in Torque
2: setup a skelleton (or use biped from max)
this is also general info. could tell the newbee that for a player the skelleton does not have to be complex or look like a ahuman skelleton (as mentioned in the Torque docs). Could simply contain links to tutorials on web
3: envelope the mesh to the skelleton (using what is best: skin? physique? pros and cons)
peolple tend to use the methods they like or know. for many reasons physique is not acceptable in torque, this would be a point to show why. like i said, pros and cons.
After all, this page itself comes with hints and info that I find easier to read than many doc pages or forums. I know it sounds odd, but some people can't stay online forever due to limited ISP contracts or prices.
Joe Maruschak, demand was an unhappy term, I explained above what was about it. call me an idiot but the term was not intended to be as you al received. Sorry.
I must say that my intention was not to offence anyone, not in this lifetime. But issues need answers, like the dts node listing. As Indie developers, most of us can't afford max or maya, so use milkshape or so. In this case, as far as I know, milkshape can't import *.max files in order to see the hierarchy - wich, again, in Milkshape is not a feature possiblle yet.
People grab TGE for it's price mainly and for it's huge community. I personally understand some are way too anxious to get answers as soon as they got theyr TGE copy. At this point my hope relies on the upcoming TGE documentation on CDs.
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR HELP AND FEEDBACK
Sincerelly
SALUTE'
08/28/2004 (12:47 am)
AMAZING feedback, with some notes though:first of all, my ideea was as is follows:
1: obtain (build) the player mesh. (with links and such to tut. webs)
general info about this, not step by step tutorial on modelling :). info about maximum polycount, issues like 'never leave a hole in your mesh and such' etc. axis orientation in max to fit the axis orientation in Torque
2: setup a skelleton (or use biped from max)
this is also general info. could tell the newbee that for a player the skelleton does not have to be complex or look like a ahuman skelleton (as mentioned in the Torque docs). Could simply contain links to tutorials on web
3: envelope the mesh to the skelleton (using what is best: skin? physique? pros and cons)
peolple tend to use the methods they like or know. for many reasons physique is not acceptable in torque, this would be a point to show why. like i said, pros and cons.
After all, this page itself comes with hints and info that I find easier to read than many doc pages or forums. I know it sounds odd, but some people can't stay online forever due to limited ISP contracts or prices.
Joe Maruschak, demand was an unhappy term, I explained above what was about it. call me an idiot but the term was not intended to be as you al received. Sorry.
I must say that my intention was not to offence anyone, not in this lifetime. But issues need answers, like the dts node listing. As Indie developers, most of us can't afford max or maya, so use milkshape or so. In this case, as far as I know, milkshape can't import *.max files in order to see the hierarchy - wich, again, in Milkshape is not a feature possiblle yet.
People grab TGE for it's price mainly and for it's huge community. I personally understand some are way too anxious to get answers as soon as they got theyr TGE copy. At this point my hope relies on the upcoming TGE documentation on CDs.
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR HELP AND FEEDBACK
Sincerelly
SALUTE'
#16
I have to say as a nebie here, the documentation while doing its best does actually assume some deal of knowledge and some simple additions such as locations of folders, names of files and the like would be great. Perhaps if a doc is too long - break it up into sections a bit more and expand those sections to cover a wider user base - this not only promotes your product documentation as being extensive and on site but also encourages other markets (such as inexperienced market) to purchase your product. please remeber if you find something easy to understand it is because of your own knowledge - cant please everyone I know but the info offered above by Joe about modelling is pretty decent, would be good to include stuff like that in docs like dont expect overnight miracles :)
08/28/2004 (12:55 am)
Hello :)I have to say as a nebie here, the documentation while doing its best does actually assume some deal of knowledge and some simple additions such as locations of folders, names of files and the like would be great. Perhaps if a doc is too long - break it up into sections a bit more and expand those sections to cover a wider user base - this not only promotes your product documentation as being extensive and on site but also encourages other markets (such as inexperienced market) to purchase your product. please remeber if you find something easy to understand it is because of your own knowledge - cant please everyone I know but the info offered above by Joe about modelling is pretty decent, would be good to include stuff like that in docs like dont expect overnight miracles :)
#17
08/28/2004 (1:00 am)
http://ubenhacked.kicks-ass.net/torque/nodes.jpg this link does not work, Gonzo.
#18
again.. this is in the docs. Physique is not supported for real time deformations. It will export 'morph' style animations, where it just takes a snapshot of the mesh at every frame. This will not allow for blended animations, interpolation between animations, and the files are HUGE when exported. I do not see how someone putting in a lot of time to demonstrate why something that is unsupported is indeed unsupported.
As to all the other items.. there is Google, and if you are using 3dsmax, there is this thing called the Help file that comes with the software.
I understand what you are saying, but I just don't agree. The docs could be improved for sure, but adding tons of extra stuff irrelevant to making your shapes work in game (and available elsewhere) is, in my opinion, not going to make the process easier.
As far as offending.. I got that you are sorry. My point of all this is that all of the information you are asking about IS IN THE DOCS. Making the documentation into a tuorial is not going to make them shorter, it is going to make them much much longer, and as not many people are reading the docs, I don't see how making them longer is going to help the problem.
08/28/2004 (6:46 am)
Quote:for many reasons physique is not acceptable in torque, this would be a point to show why. like i said, pros and cons.
again.. this is in the docs. Physique is not supported for real time deformations. It will export 'morph' style animations, where it just takes a snapshot of the mesh at every frame. This will not allow for blended animations, interpolation between animations, and the files are HUGE when exported. I do not see how someone putting in a lot of time to demonstrate why something that is unsupported is indeed unsupported.
As to all the other items.. there is Google, and if you are using 3dsmax, there is this thing called the Help file that comes with the software.
I understand what you are saying, but I just don't agree. The docs could be improved for sure, but adding tons of extra stuff irrelevant to making your shapes work in game (and available elsewhere) is, in my opinion, not going to make the process easier.
As far as offending.. I got that you are sorry. My point of all this is that all of the information you are asking about IS IN THE DOCS. Making the documentation into a tuorial is not going to make them shorter, it is going to make them much much longer, and as not many people are reading the docs, I don't see how making them longer is going to help the problem.
#19
08/28/2004 (7:14 am)
I understand. I will go my way though and post the tutorials on our webpage free for whomever may be interested, along with the needed files. SALUTES
#20
Go to the Profile of myself, Danny Ngan, and Logan Foster. Read through every post related to the DTS exporter and clip out any little nuggets of wisdom that you think would be a good addition to the docs. Put this all into an organized document and send it to me, to Danny, and Logan. We will look it over (when we have time) and work with Alex at GarageGames to make adjustments to the documentation.
As far as tutorials about modeling, rigging and skinning.. I suppose a better organized 'artist resource' section might be a good idea. These could be added somewhere on this site. My personal opinion is that they need not be added to the engine docs. If we work together to come up with ideas for an artist section of garagegames, I am pretty sure I can talk to the guys at garagegames and develop a long term plan about what this should look like.
The hardest part about writing documentation and tutorias is idenifying your audience. The persons writing the docs ane often fairly experienced, and it is hard for us to put ourselves in the shoes of someone who does not know what we know.
What would help us to write better docs and tutorials are some very specific guidlines. If there is some key point you are stumbling on, it would be good to identify that point. I could probably write an entire book on modeling, unwrapping, enveloping and texturing a character. I don't have the time to do that at the moment. If the key points could be identified, it would let us know what needs more elaboration, and will make it more probable that such a doc will be produced.
08/28/2004 (7:15 am)
I do recognnize that the docs could be improved. If someone wants to do some of the legwork, I have a suggestion. Go to the Profile of myself, Danny Ngan, and Logan Foster. Read through every post related to the DTS exporter and clip out any little nuggets of wisdom that you think would be a good addition to the docs. Put this all into an organized document and send it to me, to Danny, and Logan. We will look it over (when we have time) and work with Alex at GarageGames to make adjustments to the documentation.
As far as tutorials about modeling, rigging and skinning.. I suppose a better organized 'artist resource' section might be a good idea. These could be added somewhere on this site. My personal opinion is that they need not be added to the engine docs. If we work together to come up with ideas for an artist section of garagegames, I am pretty sure I can talk to the guys at garagegames and develop a long term plan about what this should look like.
The hardest part about writing documentation and tutorias is idenifying your audience. The persons writing the docs ane often fairly experienced, and it is hard for us to put ourselves in the shoes of someone who does not know what we know.
What would help us to write better docs and tutorials are some very specific guidlines. If there is some key point you are stumbling on, it would be good to identify that point. I could probably write an entire book on modeling, unwrapping, enveloping and texturing a character. I don't have the time to do that at the moment. If the key points could be identified, it would let us know what needs more elaboration, and will make it more probable that such a doc will be produced.
Torque 3D Owner Phil Carlisle
I think most of what your asking is already in the exporter docs, its just maybe not as newbie friendly as it should be.