Creative Labs to id Software: We ownz j00
by Fenrir Wolf · in General Discussion · 07/28/2004 (12:43 pm) · 4 replies
I haven't seen any other threads on this, so if this is a duplicate, I apologize. (And would like to be pointed to the other ones!)
Who has heard about the whole deal between Creative Labs and id Software? That Creative patented so-called "Carmack's Reverse" (z-fail two-pass stencil shadows) and then pressured id to use their Advanced HD sound technology in future Doom3 releases. I can't find anything official on this, but supposedly Carmack himself commented on how this really sucks, and how they decided to let Creative have their way because Doom3 had gone gold. To fight it now would mean delaying the game's release for -- Who knows how long? Years?
I found these two linkes on GameDev: Beyond 3D forums and frontpage of Planet Doom.
This really sucks for id Software, and I really feel for them; But damn, what about us? What's next? Someone will patent PVS, or octrees, or even a scene graph?
It's already very hard to compete with companies that have dozens of artists, programmers, etc. and a $150 million budget; But now I have to watch out for using patented algorithms in my code? What sort of legal minefield are we headed for, as independant developers? This probably won't much effect large companies who already have a team of rabid lawyers, and who shunt every minute idea through a committee, but for small time folks this almost looks like the end.
Maybe I'm being chicken little here but -- I'm starting to get really worried about our future.
Who has heard about the whole deal between Creative Labs and id Software? That Creative patented so-called "Carmack's Reverse" (z-fail two-pass stencil shadows) and then pressured id to use their Advanced HD sound technology in future Doom3 releases. I can't find anything official on this, but supposedly Carmack himself commented on how this really sucks, and how they decided to let Creative have their way because Doom3 had gone gold. To fight it now would mean delaying the game's release for -- Who knows how long? Years?
I found these two linkes on GameDev: Beyond 3D forums and frontpage of Planet Doom.
This really sucks for id Software, and I really feel for them; But damn, what about us? What's next? Someone will patent PVS, or octrees, or even a scene graph?
It's already very hard to compete with companies that have dozens of artists, programmers, etc. and a $150 million budget; But now I have to watch out for using patented algorithms in my code? What sort of legal minefield are we headed for, as independant developers? This probably won't much effect large companies who already have a team of rabid lawyers, and who shunt every minute idea through a committee, but for small time folks this almost looks like the end.
Maybe I'm being chicken little here but -- I'm starting to get really worried about our future.
#2
It's not that I think people shouldn't be allowed to protect their software, but we already have a copyright system in place for this. It just blows me away that the patent system can be so rampantly misused. It's been getting steadily worse for the last decade, but now that software patents are on the verge of being legal, it's going to just utterly screw people like me.
The way Creative behaved reminds me a lot of RAMBUS and the SDRAM fiasco; "Submarine" patents like this just stifle innovation. Who will want to risk some 900-lb gorilla coming after them?
07/28/2004 (2:05 pm)
Heh, I don't remember the sprite patent? But I do remember one where Atari sued Activision, because Activision figured out a way to reuses the player-missile graphic on every other scanline. This let them display up to eight objects in a row, instead of the normal two, though with some flickering. (The so-called "venetian blinds" effect.)It's not that I think people shouldn't be allowed to protect their software, but we already have a copyright system in place for this. It just blows me away that the patent system can be so rampantly misused. It's been getting steadily worse for the last decade, but now that software patents are on the verge of being legal, it's going to just utterly screw people like me.
The way Creative behaved reminds me a lot of RAMBUS and the SDRAM fiasco; "Submarine" patents like this just stifle innovation. Who will want to risk some 900-lb gorilla coming after them?
#3
Its like writing a poem to me... someone can own the copyright to their poem that they have written, but they can't own the method that it was written in. And I think thats how source code should be looked at.
But nothing will change if developers like us never speak up and give our two cents to the proper people. I don't know a whole lot about all the legal mumbo jumbo or how one would go about doing it, but I'm sure theres someone we could go to. And if we get someone to listen, we might be able to avoid things like this in the future. Its easier to try and prevent something from happening, than trying to stop it once it happens.
-Jase
08/11/2004 (11:58 am)
What needs to be done is a massive developer revolution petitioning the patenting of algorithms. Easier said than done, of course.Its like writing a poem to me... someone can own the copyright to their poem that they have written, but they can't own the method that it was written in. And I think thats how source code should be looked at.
But nothing will change if developers like us never speak up and give our two cents to the proper people. I don't know a whole lot about all the legal mumbo jumbo or how one would go about doing it, but I'm sure theres someone we could go to. And if we get someone to listen, we might be able to avoid things like this in the future. Its easier to try and prevent something from happening, than trying to stop it once it happens.
-Jase
#4
08/15/2004 (10:45 pm)
Carmack has what every company wants but noone can patent: his engine design genius. so they grab a piece and try extortion/pressure tactics. John already has his fleet of ferraris and a plan for the next franchise to create following wolf/doom/quake. no matter what companies might pressure, they will not stiffle his abilities. if anything, they are just making a powerful enemy in the world of game innovation and design. 
Torque 3D Owner Jay Barnson
Then some joker in the late 90's decides to patent computer solitaire, nevermind a MOUNTAIN of prior art, and some patent clerk goes ahead and grants it --- too busy playing Solitaire on Windows to take time to really understand what the patent is alleging. Then the new patent owner starts slinging around C&D orders to everybody who doesn't have enough money to fight him in court (I suspect Microsoft didn't get one of those C&D's...)
I've even got my name on a few pending patents, I'm reluctant to admit. Having some patents gives a young company assets worth something to investors even when their other sources of revenue are kinda dry. So it's popular. It's also becoming something of an arms race... QUICK! Patent this before someone else beats you to it! It doesn't matter that you were secretly using that system before the other patent was filed... it's cheaper to file it yourself than it is to fight it in court later.
It's a real problem. I support people trying to protect their ideas... heaven knows it's tough enough as a little guy with an idea trying to have enough time to market your idea when there's a big company waiting to swoop down and steal it and out-market from you at the first hint of success. But the whole software patenting problem has gone WAY out of hand. Patents are supposed to help promote innovation... and now they are stifling it.