RPG "Level Up" Types
by Steven Fletcher · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 07/24/2004 (10:31 am) · 16 replies
This thread is a list of different ways to "level up" in RPGs (or in games with RPG-like elements) as well as comparisons/critiques of the different methods.
Please put each "Level Up" Type in a different post.
Comparisons/critiques can be grouped in a post. Include @["Level Up" Type Number] at the beginning of each comparison/critique.
Obviously, alot of these different types can be combined to allow multiple ways of levelling up in the same game. This can happen in alot of different ways. Please don't comment upon combinations unless there's something unique about that combo.
Please put each "Level Up" Type in a different post.
Comparisons/critiques can be grouped in a post. Include @["Level Up" Type Number] at the beginning of each comparison/critique.
Obviously, alot of these different types can be combined to allow multiple ways of levelling up in the same game. This can happen in alot of different ways. Please don't comment upon combinations unless there's something unique about that combo.
#2
You acquire skill points, which are similar to experience points except that you use them to "buy" skills for your character.
This is typically more work than #1 but also gives you more freedom.
Limited Example: Geneforge, Warlords Battlecry
These games use skill points, but they are "combo" games because they also have experience points. You just distribute your skill points when you go up a level. I can't think of a "pure" video game example.
Pen-and-paper example: GURPS
07/24/2004 (10:33 am)
#2 Skill Points -> SkillsYou acquire skill points, which are similar to experience points except that you use them to "buy" skills for your character.
This is typically more work than #1 but also gives you more freedom.
Limited Example: Geneforge, Warlords Battlecry
These games use skill points, but they are "combo" games because they also have experience points. You just distribute your skill points when you go up a level. I can't think of a "pure" video game example.
Pen-and-paper example: GURPS
#3
There's no experience points or anything. Your character's stats are determined only by what items he/she/it is carrying.
Example: Legend of Zelda
07/24/2004 (10:36 am)
#3 Items OnlyThere's no experience points or anything. Your character's stats are determined only by what items he/she/it is carrying.
Example: Legend of Zelda
#4
You have some item that enhances your character as it used. During every battle, you get a little bit stronger and gain skills based about what items you're carrying.
Example: Final Fantasy 7 (materia)
07/24/2004 (10:39 am)
#4 Item Use -> SkillsYou have some item that enhances your character as it used. During every battle, you get a little bit stronger and gain skills based about what items you're carrying.
Example: Final Fantasy 7 (materia)
#5
You find a mystic or a magical relic, and it imbues you with some sort of ability. You can never lose the ability. It just becomes a part of you.
There are examples of this in many games, but I can't think of any game that only uses granted abilities. The most common example is finding a seed or something that raises one of your ability scores by 1 (see Dragon Warrior 4, Lufia, Breath of Fire). Another example is collecting gems to raise your magical skill.
In some games, Npcs raise the levels of all your characters (Dragon Warrior 4, Dragon Ball Z RPG).
07/24/2004 (10:45 am)
#5 Granted AbilitiesYou find a mystic or a magical relic, and it imbues you with some sort of ability. You can never lose the ability. It just becomes a part of you.
There are examples of this in many games, but I can't think of any game that only uses granted abilities. The most common example is finding a seed or something that raises one of your ability scores by 1 (see Dragon Warrior 4, Lufia, Breath of Fire). Another example is collecting gems to raise your magical skill.
In some games, Npcs raise the levels of all your characters (Dragon Warrior 4, Dragon Ball Z RPG).
#6
When you use one of your abilities alot, it gets a little better. Effectively, each statistic has experience points, though they may not be displayed. When the statistic is used, it gains some experience points. When it gets enough experience points, the statistic increases.
So if enemies hit you alot, you'll lose hp. Each time, you'll gain some "hp experience". After a while, your hp will increase.
Example: Final Fantasy 2 (the Japanese version), Ultima Online
07/24/2004 (10:48 am)
#6 Skills by trainingWhen you use one of your abilities alot, it gets a little better. Effectively, each statistic has experience points, though they may not be displayed. When the statistic is used, it gains some experience points. When it gets enough experience points, the statistic increases.
So if enemies hit you alot, you'll lose hp. Each time, you'll gain some "hp experience". After a while, your hp will increase.
Example: Final Fantasy 2 (the Japanese version), Ultima Online
#7
You could conceivably have an RPG where the character is static and never changes.
I believe this is popular in Japan. They have RPGs that are almost just interactive novels. You could do this with a more regular-style RPG, but it might not make as much sense.
Example: ?
07/24/2004 (10:52 am)
#7 No level upsYou could conceivably have an RPG where the character is static and never changes.
I believe this is popular in Japan. They have RPGs that are almost just interactive novels. You could do this with a more regular-style RPG, but it might not make as much sense.
Example: ?
#8
At some arbitrary point (usually when you gain a level as per "#1 Experience -> Levels"), you choose a "perk". A perk is just some special ability to help you out. Perks are often complex.
Perks are basically a degenerate case of "#2 Skill Points -> Skills" where all skills cost the same amount. I listed this anyways, just for completeness.
Example: Diablo 2,Fallout 1 & 2
07/24/2004 (10:58 am)
#8 PerksAt some arbitrary point (usually when you gain a level as per "#1 Experience -> Levels"), you choose a "perk". A perk is just some special ability to help you out. Perks are often complex.
Perks are basically a degenerate case of "#2 Skill Points -> Skills" where all skills cost the same amount. I listed this anyways, just for completeness.
Example: Diablo 2,Fallout 1 & 2
#9
Instead of improving your characters, you just acquire new characters who have better skills. This is a common occurrence in many RPGs, but it usually isn't the only method of "levelling up".
Example: Paladin's Quest,Robotrek (I think this is one - I've never actually played the game), The Seventh Saga
07/24/2004 (11:02 am)
#9 Character AcquisitionInstead of improving your characters, you just acquire new characters who have better skills. This is a common occurrence in many RPGs, but it usually isn't the only method of "levelling up".
Example: Paladin's Quest,Robotrek (I think this is one - I've never actually played the game), The Seventh Saga
#10
In some RPGs, you're not just a couple of punks. You're a whole army. In many RPGs, you can hire a few helpers, but in some of them, you can hire hordes of people.
These games are on the border between rpgs and strategy games.
Example: The Magic of Scheherazade (max: 99 soldiers),Pirates,Roadwars
In Destiny of an Emporer, your soldiers are hit points, and you increase your maximum hp by going up levels. So the game seems like it should be in #10, but is actually in #1.
07/24/2004 (11:05 am)
#10 Hiring SoldiersIn some RPGs, you're not just a couple of punks. You're a whole army. In many RPGs, you can hire a few helpers, but in some of them, you can hire hordes of people.
These games are on the border between rpgs and strategy games.
Example: The Magic of Scheherazade (max: 99 soldiers),Pirates,Roadwars
In Destiny of an Emporer, your soldiers are hit points, and you increase your maximum hp by going up levels. So the game seems like it should be in #10, but is actually in #1.
#11
I feel that this has defined it nicely.
an example for #7 could be a game such as Myst (its not really an RPG however).
I am currently working on a game atm (fps / with an RPG skill tree), and I am usng a mixture on some of these elements.
10/26/2004 (10:22 pm)
Thanks StevenI feel that this has defined it nicely.
an example for #7 could be a game such as Myst (its not really an RPG however).
I am currently working on a game atm (fps / with an RPG skill tree), and I am usng a mixture on some of these elements.
#12
#12 Handicapping - stats are levelled up or down to equalize players
#13 Element combo system - a bit like 5, but you only have so many slots where you can equip abilities and the ones you have equipped affect each other so you have to find the best combination.
#14 Trade off - a new item or ability may make you faster but weaker, or stronger but with less MP - the idea is to have every configuration be different but equal, and the player can choose whichever suits their personal style best.
10/27/2004 (9:38 am)
#11 Reverse levelling - stats are levelled down to keep difficulty the same despite the player's increasing skill and familiarity with the game.#12 Handicapping - stats are levelled up or down to equalize players
#13 Element combo system - a bit like 5, but you only have so many slots where you can equip abilities and the ones you have equipped affect each other so you have to find the best combination.
#14 Trade off - a new item or ability may make you faster but weaker, or stronger but with less MP - the idea is to have every configuration be different but equal, and the player can choose whichever suits their personal style best.
#13
A variant on #4 is to have the items used be character-specific, to keep the characters distinct in their skill sets (whereas witha game like FF7, all characters are essentially identical in potential abilities). An example of this is Final Fantasy 9.
#15 Limited experience based leveling. You get minor bonuses from minor encounters up to a certain point, but can only go to the next "level" after a major boss encounter. This makes sure that the characters stay at a fairly controlled power level and can't just spend a few hours out on the field to get ahead for the rest of the game.
Example: Chrono Cross
As far as experience and skill based leveling, there is a lot of variety to be had there depending on the mood and level of realism you are going for. How the character takes damage, and how that changes with advancement is also an important consideration. Take some examples from the pen and paper RPG world:
D&D/D20: Experience increases character abilities exponentially. A high level character is like a god compared to a low level character. An army of thousands of level 1 characters could not defeat a single level 20 character. Most MMO games operate on this model for some reason. Hit points also increase exponentially in this sysetm, giving high level characters a huge buffer to death.
White Wolf/ Gurps: Experience provides moderate increases to abilities, but characters' core competancies are established during character creation. Abilities start at a fairly average level and go up slowly. A powerful character is more skilled than a starting character, but in a more realistic sense than in Dungeons and Dragons. The fallout series is a decent example of this in the computer world, though even it advances faster than either of the paper examples. Characters in these systems rarely recieve upgrades to their damage taking capacity, so in these sytems a single bad encounter can be very deadly even for experience characters. Armor is your friend.
Silhouette/ Jovian Chronicals: Like WW & Gurps, this system provides a slow experience curve. Experienced characters roll more dice, but only take the highest result, meaning that the range of success does not get higher, just the probablility of getting a high roll. This makes experienced characters lmore likely to do well and unlikely to fail, but not spectacularly powerful. This system does not use hit points, but rather a wounding threshhold system, that is most realistic, but also the most deadly system discussed. I know of no PC RPGs with this damage/advancement style.
10/27/2004 (11:07 am)
Regarding #7 (No level ups): Examples would be what we thing of as old-school adventure games: Sam & Max, Monkey Island, Grim Fandango, etc.A variant on #4 is to have the items used be character-specific, to keep the characters distinct in their skill sets (whereas witha game like FF7, all characters are essentially identical in potential abilities). An example of this is Final Fantasy 9.
#15 Limited experience based leveling. You get minor bonuses from minor encounters up to a certain point, but can only go to the next "level" after a major boss encounter. This makes sure that the characters stay at a fairly controlled power level and can't just spend a few hours out on the field to get ahead for the rest of the game.
Example: Chrono Cross
As far as experience and skill based leveling, there is a lot of variety to be had there depending on the mood and level of realism you are going for. How the character takes damage, and how that changes with advancement is also an important consideration. Take some examples from the pen and paper RPG world:
D&D/D20: Experience increases character abilities exponentially. A high level character is like a god compared to a low level character. An army of thousands of level 1 characters could not defeat a single level 20 character. Most MMO games operate on this model for some reason. Hit points also increase exponentially in this sysetm, giving high level characters a huge buffer to death.
White Wolf/ Gurps: Experience provides moderate increases to abilities, but characters' core competancies are established during character creation. Abilities start at a fairly average level and go up slowly. A powerful character is more skilled than a starting character, but in a more realistic sense than in Dungeons and Dragons. The fallout series is a decent example of this in the computer world, though even it advances faster than either of the paper examples. Characters in these systems rarely recieve upgrades to their damage taking capacity, so in these sytems a single bad encounter can be very deadly even for experience characters. Armor is your friend.
Silhouette/ Jovian Chronicals: Like WW & Gurps, this system provides a slow experience curve. Experienced characters roll more dice, but only take the highest result, meaning that the range of success does not get higher, just the probablility of getting a high roll. This makes experienced characters lmore likely to do well and unlikely to fail, but not spectacularly powerful. This system does not use hit points, but rather a wounding threshhold system, that is most realistic, but also the most deadly system discussed. I know of no PC RPGs with this damage/advancement style.
#14
Example: Time Stalkers (Dreamcast)
In Time Stalkers, and a number of the random dungeon games, you only level up while in the dungeons and when you return to town, you're placed back at level one. You get to keep your items and gold (usually), but you have to recover the lost levels the next time you enter the dungeon. I consider this annoying.
You comment about #7 being popular in Japan puzzled me until I started thinking about some RPG's like Baroque that had interactive novel offshoots (like Silent Hill had Play Novel: Silent Hill). Most japanese RPG's that I've played use the standard level based or skill based systems. Most Japanese adventure games that have incorporated RPG elements are simple skill-based advancement. A good US example is Beyond Zork, which is a text adventure with RPG skills. Quarterstaff (US, Mac) is another fun example.
#9 would include RPG's like Pokemon or some of the Megami Tensei games where the party themselves usually don't fight and often don't level up. Their power and success depends on the fusions and breeding that they've accomplished.
Games such as Pengel and Monster Rancher have interesting breeding and manipulation schemes that could be used rather nicely in RPG's.
10/27/2004 (11:25 am)
#16: Tedious Endurance TrialsExample: Time Stalkers (Dreamcast)
In Time Stalkers, and a number of the random dungeon games, you only level up while in the dungeons and when you return to town, you're placed back at level one. You get to keep your items and gold (usually), but you have to recover the lost levels the next time you enter the dungeon. I consider this annoying.
You comment about #7 being popular in Japan puzzled me until I started thinking about some RPG's like Baroque that had interactive novel offshoots (like Silent Hill had Play Novel: Silent Hill). Most japanese RPG's that I've played use the standard level based or skill based systems. Most Japanese adventure games that have incorporated RPG elements are simple skill-based advancement. A good US example is Beyond Zork, which is a text adventure with RPG skills. Quarterstaff (US, Mac) is another fun example.
#9 would include RPG's like Pokemon or some of the Megami Tensei games where the party themselves usually don't fight and often don't level up. Their power and success depends on the fusions and breeding that they've accomplished.
Games such as Pengel and Monster Rancher have interesting breeding and manipulation schemes that could be used rather nicely in RPG's.
#15
With #7, I've seen some Japanese games which are basically interactive novels (similar to "choose-your-own-adventure" books but more complicated). That's what I was talking about. I don't know they're really "RPGs", but an RPG is whatever you want to say it is. I didn't want to start a "What is an RPG?" thread, so I just went ahead and listed it. :)
#17 Character Breeding
I think David was talking about this. Even if he wasn't, he's the one who reminded me of it.
You have a group of characters whose stats are encoded as some sort of DNA. You can breed them with other characters. The offspring have the appropriate DNA mix and thus a mix of stats. You could then choose what characters to send off to fight whatever battles exist in the game.
Example: chocobo breeding in Final Fantasy 7
I believe someone posted on this forum about making a game where you took over your offspring when your character died, but I'm not entirely sure. I know that I had a similar idea for a sort of artificial life RPG once, but I never really worked on it. I have enough trouble programming much simpler games. :(
@David
I agree that #16 would be annoying. There was a dungeon like this in Lufia 2. You picked a "dream team" of Lufia 2 characters that started at level 1 and went down into the dungeon. You could only keep certain items. I can't remember the details, but it was definetly an example of #16.
Fortunately, that was just a bonus dungeon.
10/27/2004 (9:14 pm)
I must admit that I was surprised to see this thread come back to life since I was the only who ever posted to it originally.With #7, I've seen some Japanese games which are basically interactive novels (similar to "choose-your-own-adventure" books but more complicated). That's what I was talking about. I don't know they're really "RPGs", but an RPG is whatever you want to say it is. I didn't want to start a "What is an RPG?" thread, so I just went ahead and listed it. :)
#17 Character Breeding
I think David was talking about this. Even if he wasn't, he's the one who reminded me of it.
You have a group of characters whose stats are encoded as some sort of DNA. You can breed them with other characters. The offspring have the appropriate DNA mix and thus a mix of stats. You could then choose what characters to send off to fight whatever battles exist in the game.
Example: chocobo breeding in Final Fantasy 7
I believe someone posted on this forum about making a game where you took over your offspring when your character died, but I'm not entirely sure. I know that I had a similar idea for a sort of artificial life RPG once, but I never really worked on it. I have enough trouble programming much simpler games. :(
@David
I agree that #16 would be annoying. There was a dungeon like this in Lufia 2. You picked a "dream team" of Lufia 2 characters that started at level 1 and went down into the dungeon. You could only keep certain items. I can't remember the details, but it was definetly an example of #16.
Fortunately, that was just a bonus dungeon.
#16
The design is 98.6% data driven as to support the tangle of rules that are the d20. I am VERY excited about the possibilities of this system... Minions of Mirth has some great House Rules...
If anyone is curious, download PCGen and read the LST file format documentation... it gives an idea... via the building blocks described any of the scenarios discussed in this thread could be achieved... in fact, PCGen contains many, many megs of RPG rules from various and diverse campaigns...
The components might give further ideas for design... I know they have for me :)
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
10/27/2004 (9:26 pm)
We'll be publishing some D20 3.5 code next week under the GPL... It leverages the 4+ year effort on PCGen... The code is written in Python and I believe it's a very solid base.The design is 98.6% data driven as to support the tangle of rules that are the d20. I am VERY excited about the possibilities of this system... Minions of Mirth has some great House Rules...
If anyone is curious, download PCGen and read the LST file format documentation... it gives an idea... via the building blocks described any of the scenarios discussed in this thread could be achieved... in fact, PCGen contains many, many megs of RPG rules from various and diverse campaigns...
The components might give further ideas for design... I know they have for me :)
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
Steven Fletcher
You obtain experience points be defeating enemies, accomplishing quests, etc. When you reach a certain number of experience points, you gain a level, which makes your character better in various game-specific ways.
Example: Final Fantasy