Why all games are "the same"
by Forrest B. Walker · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 10/08/2001 (10:14 pm) · 30 replies
I spent years in the game industry, going as far back as DOS 2.1
I cannot begin to name all the games I worked on, but I can name on one hand the genres. With a couple of BRILLIANT exceptions such as _The Incredible Machine_ every game I worked on was a variation of "whacking wizards in the woods".
I had an "exaulted" position in one major producer's power structure where I got to help "decide" next year's games. Here is why, in a nutshell, all we get is another variation of wizard whacking...ready?
It has nothing to do with the 90 to 95% male testosterone laden audience. That audience is the industry's own self fulfilling prophecy.
It has to do with MARKETING. Ever wonder why there are so many sequels?? MARKETING has no imagination. They know how to market a sequel, or a metoo game. They have no idea how to market a new idea. IN FACT, I was once told by a VP of Marketing that it would be, and I quote, "too much work" for him to develop a marketing strategy for a new idea. He said this in front of the senior management, and he got away with it. I have NEVER told a boss "that game is too difficult for me to work on".
OK, rip away!
I cannot begin to name all the games I worked on, but I can name on one hand the genres. With a couple of BRILLIANT exceptions such as _The Incredible Machine_ every game I worked on was a variation of "whacking wizards in the woods".
I had an "exaulted" position in one major producer's power structure where I got to help "decide" next year's games. Here is why, in a nutshell, all we get is another variation of wizard whacking...ready?
It has nothing to do with the 90 to 95% male testosterone laden audience. That audience is the industry's own self fulfilling prophecy.
It has to do with MARKETING. Ever wonder why there are so many sequels?? MARKETING has no imagination. They know how to market a sequel, or a metoo game. They have no idea how to market a new idea. IN FACT, I was once told by a VP of Marketing that it would be, and I quote, "too much work" for him to develop a marketing strategy for a new idea. He said this in front of the senior management, and he got away with it. I have NEVER told a boss "that game is too difficult for me to work on".
OK, rip away!
About the author
#22
Funny you should mention that...
Take a look here.
Forrest,
I guess the mountains of Chile aren't quite as tall as Mt. Everest. Good to see you here!
10/10/2001 (2:40 pm)
BurningRose and Adam,Funny you should mention that...
Take a look here.
Forrest,
I guess the mountains of Chile aren't quite as tall as Mt. Everest. Good to see you here!
#23
As far as that other game, it was called Sid & Al's Incredible Toons. It was pretty much a cartoon violence version of TIM. I also remember it had an insidious amount of puzzles. When you solved each one, a jigsaw puzzle piece would get filled in on a special screen, eventually revealing a message. When you could guess the message...even more puzzles would be unlocked! I forget what happened when you solved every single one. I never got terribly far in it. Of all the TIM games, I've remained partial to TIM2.
The game I'm talking about was something else and it never got past prototypes (at least that I heard of). The intention was a 3D version of TIM.
10/10/2001 (4:04 pm)
Ironically, I just found the Chain Reaction info and was about to post the project page myself. Too bad the Monster Studios page isn't up yet, although it's nice to see the Dynamix monster thing still kicking.As far as that other game, it was called Sid & Al's Incredible Toons. It was pretty much a cartoon violence version of TIM. I also remember it had an insidious amount of puzzles. When you solved each one, a jigsaw puzzle piece would get filled in on a special screen, eventually revealing a message. When you could guess the message...even more puzzles would be unlocked! I forget what happened when you solved every single one. I never got terribly far in it. Of all the TIM games, I've remained partial to TIM2.
The game I'm talking about was something else and it never got past prototypes (at least that I heard of). The intention was a 3D version of TIM.
#24
*copyright laws -- companies don't want to risk using others' ideas for fear of being sued -- this is the major reason
*personnel rely on certain groups for marketing and design information, rather than the entire public
these certain groups are typically narrow-minded groups who are only interested in making a fast buck rather than offering comprehensive and thorough reports to higher ups in the company. Much of the time, the reports are deliberate lies by the groups to sort of keep the higher ups under some kind of control -- the groups might deliberately misquote information hoping they can keep their jobs -- if the game the groups advise on comes out bad, the groups will be needed again for marketing and the groups will just make up some excuse to cover their deceitful tracks.
*some companies want game players to get totally bored with game so the players will get on with their lives and do truly productive things for society (like helping neighbors in need, donating time and money for charities, etc.)
*marketing personnel don't practice what they preach and they are hypocrits. Once I discover hypocritical products, I boycott them entirely and I boycott any future products the company makes and/or friends of that company makes. Futhermore, I encourage all my friends to boycott them.
*they don't design what they've experienced first hand, rather their design and marketing work is based on those certain groups mentioned above and/or limited knowledge.
10/12/2001 (12:13 pm)
There are several reasons why so many games are the same:*copyright laws -- companies don't want to risk using others' ideas for fear of being sued -- this is the major reason
*personnel rely on certain groups for marketing and design information, rather than the entire public
these certain groups are typically narrow-minded groups who are only interested in making a fast buck rather than offering comprehensive and thorough reports to higher ups in the company. Much of the time, the reports are deliberate lies by the groups to sort of keep the higher ups under some kind of control -- the groups might deliberately misquote information hoping they can keep their jobs -- if the game the groups advise on comes out bad, the groups will be needed again for marketing and the groups will just make up some excuse to cover their deceitful tracks.
*some companies want game players to get totally bored with game so the players will get on with their lives and do truly productive things for society (like helping neighbors in need, donating time and money for charities, etc.)
*marketing personnel don't practice what they preach and they are hypocrits. Once I discover hypocritical products, I boycott them entirely and I boycott any future products the company makes and/or friends of that company makes. Futhermore, I encourage all my friends to boycott them.
*they don't design what they've experienced first hand, rather their design and marketing work is based on those certain groups mentioned above and/or limited knowledge.
#25
How many posts have you read where so and so is developing a RPG with a "fantastic" story revolveing around finding 4 elemental swords to defeat some evil force?...how many of us honestly get excited by such game ideas anymore (I know I don't)?...How much excitement can be generated in a upcomeing RPG simply by removeing it from it's fantasy/D&D setting?..tons, TONS of excellent ideas are out there for such a game...but "fanboys" won't have it...they cannot fanthom the removel of "magic" systems, monsters, and the other cliched RPG trappings...
FPS "fanboys" are the same...obsessed with "more realisam"...it makes sense to them to recreate the "realistic" effects weapons have...richoceing bullets...enviroment damage..."realistic" A.I...but point out the basic fact that thier "chain smokeing anti-hero" would in reality have a hard time constantly running...or that even when equiped with all those weapons (what happens to the ones in your 'inventory' that you arn't currently useing?) the charactor still has to deal with the undignified risk of tripping over his own feet...or when fireing weapons inside a building there is a risk of hearing loss (either temporary or permanate)...
"fanboys" will stagnate the industry as they are unwilling (or even unable) to look outside there little circle of intrests...but in many ways this is a good thing as the more original games will more easily capture the attention of the very large "non-fanboy" gameing market...
A well made wild west RPG is going to get more attention then a simularly well made D&D RPG simply by being different enough to stand out of the crowd.
As for marketing...there is another, very proven, way to do that without spending much money yet generateing terrific results...the "grass-roots" approch...entire political campains are won by it...seemingly insignificant films become blockbusters because of it...it has the power to even undermine the efforts of a "best of the best" level advertiseing campaign...it can even generate intrest outside it's intendend audiance...games like Myst became mega-blockbuster hits because of it
11/12/2001 (3:51 pm)
The number one reason games seem the same, in my book, is that "fanboys" only seem interested in developing them...take a look at most of the posts in the 'game ideas' form...RPG and FPS...rarely divergeing from established themes within the genre...How many posts have you read where so and so is developing a RPG with a "fantastic" story revolveing around finding 4 elemental swords to defeat some evil force?...how many of us honestly get excited by such game ideas anymore (I know I don't)?...How much excitement can be generated in a upcomeing RPG simply by removeing it from it's fantasy/D&D setting?..tons, TONS of excellent ideas are out there for such a game...but "fanboys" won't have it...they cannot fanthom the removel of "magic" systems, monsters, and the other cliched RPG trappings...
FPS "fanboys" are the same...obsessed with "more realisam"...it makes sense to them to recreate the "realistic" effects weapons have...richoceing bullets...enviroment damage..."realistic" A.I...but point out the basic fact that thier "chain smokeing anti-hero" would in reality have a hard time constantly running...or that even when equiped with all those weapons (what happens to the ones in your 'inventory' that you arn't currently useing?) the charactor still has to deal with the undignified risk of tripping over his own feet...or when fireing weapons inside a building there is a risk of hearing loss (either temporary or permanate)...
"fanboys" will stagnate the industry as they are unwilling (or even unable) to look outside there little circle of intrests...but in many ways this is a good thing as the more original games will more easily capture the attention of the very large "non-fanboy" gameing market...
A well made wild west RPG is going to get more attention then a simularly well made D&D RPG simply by being different enough to stand out of the crowd.
As for marketing...there is another, very proven, way to do that without spending much money yet generateing terrific results...the "grass-roots" approch...entire political campains are won by it...seemingly insignificant films become blockbusters because of it...it has the power to even undermine the efforts of a "best of the best" level advertiseing campaign...it can even generate intrest outside it's intendend audiance...games like Myst became mega-blockbuster hits because of it
#26
Management will not spend $1-100 Million to make a movie/game/sitcom/anything else if they have no idea people will buy it.
I don't care if you are making the next Independance Day, Men in Black, or any other big budget summer blockbuster or the next Half-Life/Quake/Tribes.
Anytime the big bucks are at stake you can always expect a proven formula with a little twist. Period.
If you want to see the next big hit, watch out for the little guy.
11/12/2001 (6:27 pm)
I think part of what plays into the crappy redux game/movie/sitcom equation is the price tag of development.Management will not spend $1-100 Million to make a movie/game/sitcom/anything else if they have no idea people will buy it.
I don't care if you are making the next Independance Day, Men in Black, or any other big budget summer blockbuster or the next Half-Life/Quake/Tribes.
Anytime the big bucks are at stake you can always expect a proven formula with a little twist. Period.
If you want to see the next big hit, watch out for the little guy.
#27
certain plot conventions (the evil demon, the wise wizard, the damsel in distress) are pulled directly from our collective unconscious and arent going anywhere for the foreseeable future, so you should probably get used to them. but that is not the same as saying you cant change genres. look at star wars, you have all the stock conventions, but they are given such a delicious twist in the scifi setting that they seem new.
what i find boring is how people inextricably link certain genres with specifics, ie, its fantasy, so it must have elves (exact duplicates of d&d elves), but cannot have lasers. anyone ever looked at warhammer40k? or the movie Heavy Metal, or Flash Gordon, etc?
i agree that the average person is of very limited imagination. thus the 'fanboy' mentality of mods where gameplay closely follows established trends ("lets make another counterstrike!"). hopefully torque will help some of the more creative minds get things made without the interference of the suits.
11/13/2001 (8:38 pm)
very interesting thread here. i agree that proven formulas have inherent value (whether to customers or just to marketers is another story), but i also think that new ideas have promise. but i dont share the hostility towards fantasy/rpgs. i think that the fantasy rpg should be done RIGHT before we declare it a dead horse. look at action movies, there have been zillions made, but how many truly GOOD ones? granted, a fairly long list, but comparing that list to the list of all action movies, thousands of shitty movies, you get the idea. i have yet to see an rpg in the fps genre that gave any feeling of freedom. yes, mmorpgs have wider areas to explore, but they suck. you cant flip, or kick, or climb, or ride, or sit at a table and eat, etc. you get one attack animation and off you go. ugh. certain plot conventions (the evil demon, the wise wizard, the damsel in distress) are pulled directly from our collective unconscious and arent going anywhere for the foreseeable future, so you should probably get used to them. but that is not the same as saying you cant change genres. look at star wars, you have all the stock conventions, but they are given such a delicious twist in the scifi setting that they seem new.
what i find boring is how people inextricably link certain genres with specifics, ie, its fantasy, so it must have elves (exact duplicates of d&d elves), but cannot have lasers. anyone ever looked at warhammer40k? or the movie Heavy Metal, or Flash Gordon, etc?
i agree that the average person is of very limited imagination. thus the 'fanboy' mentality of mods where gameplay closely follows established trends ("lets make another counterstrike!"). hopefully torque will help some of the more creative minds get things made without the interference of the suits.
#28
I am going to do my best to stay away from the corporates. My philosophy is, if I am not thinking "Damn, I can't wait to get home and play that game!", it wasn't worth my developing. I would hate anything to get in the way of that.
I just hope I can live up to my own standard. lol
11/13/2001 (10:19 pm)
>>hopefully torque will help some of the more creative minds get things made without the interference of the suits.I am going to do my best to stay away from the corporates. My philosophy is, if I am not thinking "Damn, I can't wait to get home and play that game!", it wasn't worth my developing. I would hate anything to get in the way of that.
I just hope I can live up to my own standard. lol
#29
So, like I said, the best games are made by the little guys. Guess what? We are those little guys. I like that feeling.
As for truly new games... I don't know.
11/14/2001 (10:53 am)
Like movies, all the good games come from the little guys. It is a reality because of the way games are sold, advertised, and funded. This means that any normal dev team can only make one indie hit before it is raised to "the high position of greatness" where it stagnates because of the expectations put upon it. Many of a company's early games express huge amounts of creativity, but as they become more responsible for more money, that creativity goes flat.So, like I said, the best games are made by the little guys. Guess what? We are those little guys. I like that feeling.
As for truly new games... I don't know.
#30
-what i find boring is how people inextricably link certain genres with specifics, ie, its fantasy, so it must have elves (exact duplicates of d&d elves), but cannot have lasers. anyone ever looked at warhammer40k? or the movie Heavy Metal, or Flash Gordon, etc?
Exactly...there are tons of pen-n-paper RPGs out there that do not have magic systems of any kind...yet...with the notable exception of Fallout...there are virtualy zero PC RPGs that do NOT take place in a typical D&D setting...
Folks, here is a perfect example...Fallout...did pretty well...well enough to prove that there is a market for non-Tolken/D&D basied RPGs...take this simple truth and run with it...There are potentionaly millions of game players out there who may very well love to play a RPG...but are turned off by all the usual D&D trimmings...
11/14/2001 (4:29 pm)
Jeff...you are on to something there ;)-what i find boring is how people inextricably link certain genres with specifics, ie, its fantasy, so it must have elves (exact duplicates of d&d elves), but cannot have lasers. anyone ever looked at warhammer40k? or the movie Heavy Metal, or Flash Gordon, etc?
Exactly...there are tons of pen-n-paper RPGs out there that do not have magic systems of any kind...yet...with the notable exception of Fallout...there are virtualy zero PC RPGs that do NOT take place in a typical D&D setting...
Folks, here is a perfect example...Fallout...did pretty well...well enough to prove that there is a market for non-Tolken/D&D basied RPGs...take this simple truth and run with it...There are potentionaly millions of game players out there who may very well love to play a RPG...but are turned off by all the usual D&D trimmings...
Forrest B. Walker
You are correct sir!
There was a redeux of TIM. Except, it wasn't exactly a sequel. It was a game where a cat and mouse (Mutt & Jeff, Tom & Jerry, something like that) went at each other using the same principles as in TIM, where you had to place puzzle pieces to block or enable your escape. It was a lot of fun.