Game Creation- Help!!!
by Matt Vitelli · in General Discussion · 07/04/2004 (4:47 pm) · 8 replies
#2
At the same time, if you don't know how to program that well, you're better off not trying your own game yet. As Eric said, try and get in on a project and learn the ropes, or at least learn the ropes on something simpler (like making a 2D game by yourself). As you've already experienced, you can't make people work for you. Poor project management is what kills most projects.
Keep at it, educate yourself, respect the people your working with (they don't HAVE to work with you, and you should probably not refer to them as if you own the team) and have fun!
07/04/2004 (5:25 pm)
It's not impossible: Eric Risser and Dylan Sale made Produce Panic, and they're still teenagers (I think you guys are, correct me if I'm wrong). Naysayers are everywhere, and they'll laugh and scoff no matter you do... it's best to ignore them (and there are lots of them).At the same time, if you don't know how to program that well, you're better off not trying your own game yet. As Eric said, try and get in on a project and learn the ropes, or at least learn the ropes on something simpler (like making a 2D game by yourself). As you've already experienced, you can't make people work for you. Poor project management is what kills most projects.
Keep at it, educate yourself, respect the people your working with (they don't HAVE to work with you, and you should probably not refer to them as if you own the team) and have fun!
#3
And don't feel bad that none of your friends can help. Most of the time, that is the case, and that's what communities like this are for. Tackle learning TGE first, and then you'll be in a much better position to answer your question. But to qualify that, you can learn the parts of TGE that have to do with your game(after you learn TGE in general of course, or else you don't know what to learn that's related to your game).
07/04/2004 (6:28 pm)
Matt, just go for it, and you don't even need to compile TGE to learn it. Just do mods from the scripts to start with, and learn from there. You'll find that the scripting is very powerful-as a matter of fact, I was using scripting to implement just about all of my gameplay functionality for my project(I moved it into code because I have a gui component I can't "talk" to, but if you're making an FPS, they you don't have to worry about that scenario).And don't feel bad that none of your friends can help. Most of the time, that is the case, and that's what communities like this are for. Tackle learning TGE first, and then you'll be in a much better position to answer your question. But to qualify that, you can learn the parts of TGE that have to do with your game(after you learn TGE in general of course, or else you don't know what to learn that's related to your game).
#4
Okay, you've got two paths of "curriculum" that I made up. Depending on what you wish to be able to do with Torque, you may follow either "curriculum" -
Associates Degree of Game Development - With this "degree" you can only learn to script the Torque engine, and won't be able to touch the C++ side of it. By not being able to interface with the C++ side of Torque, you lose a lot of flexibility with the engine, and you may not be able to make your game exactly as you want. But, this curriculum is much shorter than the Bachelor's one. So if you want to either forego interfacing the Torque C++ side, or you want to have another programmer than yourself do it, then this is the path that I recommend -
1) "Absolute Beginner's Guide to C" by Greg Perry. This is an absolute necessity for beginning programmers. You should probably purchase this one simultaneously with the next book -
2) "3D Game Programming All in One" by Ken Finney. Once you learn C from the previous book, you will be ready to do most of what is in this book. BUT, before you are able to fully understand Torque script, you will need to know the basic parts of C++. So after reading as much of this as you can understand, you should get the next book -
3) "A First Book of C++" by Gary J Bronson. It ain't a great C++ beginning book, but it's better than any other I came across. You may want to try to find another one at Amazon that is cheaper and is better.
Bachelor's Degree of Game Programming - Now, you ALSO have the option of wanting to be able to do everything possible with Torque, and want to know how to interact with it through C++. This isn't the path for everybody because of its sheer length, but it's a path worth taking, and one that most serious programmers will take in some form or another.
1) "Absolute Beginner's Guide to C" by Greg Perry. This is an absolute necessity for beginning programmers. You should probably purchase this one simultaneously with the next book -
2) "3D Game Programming All in One" by Ken Finney. Once you learn C from the previous book, you will be ready to do most of what is in this book. BUT, before you are able to fully understand Torque script, you will need to know the basic parts of C++. So after reading as much of this as you can understand, you should get the next book -
3) "C++ Primer Plus" by Steven Prata. A tough but very complete book on C++. Learn it, live it, love it. Plus, this book is a GREAT reference for the C++ language. No need for K&R if you have this one.
4) "Design Patterns Explained" by Shalloway, Trott, and Trott. None of the previous books will or can teach you how to use an object oriented language in the way it's supposed to be used. To best learn that, which is absolutely necessary, IMO, you will have to turn to this book.
Now, this next book may not be absolutely necessary to make games with Torque. Up until now, you need only what I've recommended. BUT, it is extremely important for any object oriented progammer who wants to know what they're doing to read this next book -
5) "Design Patterns" by Gamma et al. This is a more broad catalogue of design patterns that will allow you to build on what you learned in book number 4.
Now graduate, DARN IT!
There you have it! Two different and great curricula for become a very capable game developer! Good luck on your journey, and have fun getting there!
07/04/2004 (7:50 pm)
The Bryan Edds' Game Developer's Curricula! :)Okay, you've got two paths of "curriculum" that I made up. Depending on what you wish to be able to do with Torque, you may follow either "curriculum" -
Associates Degree of Game Development - With this "degree" you can only learn to script the Torque engine, and won't be able to touch the C++ side of it. By not being able to interface with the C++ side of Torque, you lose a lot of flexibility with the engine, and you may not be able to make your game exactly as you want. But, this curriculum is much shorter than the Bachelor's one. So if you want to either forego interfacing the Torque C++ side, or you want to have another programmer than yourself do it, then this is the path that I recommend -
1) "Absolute Beginner's Guide to C" by Greg Perry. This is an absolute necessity for beginning programmers. You should probably purchase this one simultaneously with the next book -
2) "3D Game Programming All in One" by Ken Finney. Once you learn C from the previous book, you will be ready to do most of what is in this book. BUT, before you are able to fully understand Torque script, you will need to know the basic parts of C++. So after reading as much of this as you can understand, you should get the next book -
3) "A First Book of C++" by Gary J Bronson. It ain't a great C++ beginning book, but it's better than any other I came across. You may want to try to find another one at Amazon that is cheaper and is better.
Bachelor's Degree of Game Programming - Now, you ALSO have the option of wanting to be able to do everything possible with Torque, and want to know how to interact with it through C++. This isn't the path for everybody because of its sheer length, but it's a path worth taking, and one that most serious programmers will take in some form or another.
1) "Absolute Beginner's Guide to C" by Greg Perry. This is an absolute necessity for beginning programmers. You should probably purchase this one simultaneously with the next book -
2) "3D Game Programming All in One" by Ken Finney. Once you learn C from the previous book, you will be ready to do most of what is in this book. BUT, before you are able to fully understand Torque script, you will need to know the basic parts of C++. So after reading as much of this as you can understand, you should get the next book -
3) "C++ Primer Plus" by Steven Prata. A tough but very complete book on C++. Learn it, live it, love it. Plus, this book is a GREAT reference for the C++ language. No need for K&R if you have this one.
4) "Design Patterns Explained" by Shalloway, Trott, and Trott. None of the previous books will or can teach you how to use an object oriented language in the way it's supposed to be used. To best learn that, which is absolutely necessary, IMO, you will have to turn to this book.
Now, this next book may not be absolutely necessary to make games with Torque. Up until now, you need only what I've recommended. BUT, it is extremely important for any object oriented progammer who wants to know what they're doing to read this next book -
5) "Design Patterns" by Gamma et al. This is a more broad catalogue of design patterns that will allow you to build on what you learned in book number 4.
Now graduate, DARN IT!
There you have it! Two different and great curricula for become a very capable game developer! Good luck on your journey, and have fun getting there!
#5
I am the leader of Rebel and i am making a game called Hell's Awakening.
Just like you i do all the work myself, But DONT on ANY circumstances give up!
I have been thinking on giving up but im not going to because i have good determination you are even farther ahead than i am and i still wont give up.
I dont have musicians, artists, or graphic designers, and i cant even draw!
I can just write stories but im improving on everything and just like you my friends get lazy too.
So dont give up...please dont give up.
P.S. If you need an extra writer for that Project Nemesis game i would more than like to help you my E-Mail address is DBZ212@MSN.COM
07/04/2004 (9:29 pm)
Hi Matt you sound just like me!!!I am the leader of Rebel and i am making a game called Hell's Awakening.
Just like you i do all the work myself, But DONT on ANY circumstances give up!
I have been thinking on giving up but im not going to because i have good determination you are even farther ahead than i am and i still wont give up.
I dont have musicians, artists, or graphic designers, and i cant even draw!
I can just write stories but im improving on everything and just like you my friends get lazy too.
So dont give up...please dont give up.
P.S. If you need an extra writer for that Project Nemesis game i would more than like to help you my E-Mail address is DBZ212@MSN.COM
#6
On your troubles, Matt - i might be wrong, but the reason why you were not able to mod, seems to be the fact that you didnt really know what to achieve. Or didnt know how things work. If thats the case, you better follow Bryan's advice.
Tinker with things to find out how they work. I'm just a code-challenged artist, but i think i ought to know (generally) how code works anyway (not that i myself follow my own advices as much as i would like to, err)
To understand some Very Basic principles, check out Game Maker, dig beyond the drag-n-drop interface, make something simple with it. It might be annoying to hear "start with Breakout clone", all the time, but it actually is a valid advice.
Starting small doesnt mean lack of ambition, it means that you are willing to invest time in learning stuff. And it pays.
07/04/2004 (11:38 pm)
Bryan, your post should be made as some kind of sticky FAQ in visible place :)))On your troubles, Matt - i might be wrong, but the reason why you were not able to mod, seems to be the fact that you didnt really know what to achieve. Or didnt know how things work. If thats the case, you better follow Bryan's advice.
Tinker with things to find out how they work. I'm just a code-challenged artist, but i think i ought to know (generally) how code works anyway (not that i myself follow my own advices as much as i would like to, err)
To understand some Very Basic principles, check out Game Maker, dig beyond the drag-n-drop interface, make something simple with it. It might be annoying to hear "start with Breakout clone", all the time, but it actually is a valid advice.
Starting small doesnt mean lack of ambition, it means that you are willing to invest time in learning stuff. And it pays.
#7
I agree with Bryan, but I dont recommend learning C before C++. Its not exactly productive and you will just have to learn all the hard parts in the long run anyway. I started out bright eyed and bushy tailed with a book on C++. Its not easy, but its better in the long run I think.
Programming is the key to learning how to program. I made a TON of small throw-aways before I even started thinking about making proper games. I recommend nehe.gamedev.net for some small howtos with graphics and such. I think the turning point for me was making a mod for Quake 3. That was my eureka moment when I realised how it all fitted together. Maybe you want to try something like that?
Making games is REALLY hard when its just a few guys (two in our case) working together over the net in their spare time, but its really worth it to play a game you have made and have fun doing it.
07/05/2004 (12:39 am)
@Paul, Im still a teenager, but Eric is now 20 :)I agree with Bryan, but I dont recommend learning C before C++. Its not exactly productive and you will just have to learn all the hard parts in the long run anyway. I started out bright eyed and bushy tailed with a book on C++. Its not easy, but its better in the long run I think.
Programming is the key to learning how to program. I made a TON of small throw-aways before I even started thinking about making proper games. I recommend nehe.gamedev.net for some small howtos with graphics and such. I think the turning point for me was making a mod for Quake 3. That was my eureka moment when I realised how it all fitted together. Maybe you want to try something like that?
Making games is REALLY hard when its just a few guys (two in our case) working together over the net in their spare time, but its really worth it to play a game you have made and have fun doing it.
#8
KEEP IN MIND-Undoubtedly, I have the least experience on the site, so most of what I just said is most likely wrong. But it does sound like I know what I'm talking about, which is always good.
07/05/2004 (8:52 pm)
Just another thought: If you're not ready for the coding and whatnot, just keep working on the pre-production. There is ALWAYS something more to do there. Fine tuning is VERY important.Problems with story? Characters (if your game is gonna have any kind of story line beyond the action, you'll need plot and character arcs, and write-ups are useful)?KEEP IN MIND-Undoubtedly, I have the least experience on the site, so most of what I just said is most likely wrong. But it does sound like I know what I'm talking about, which is always good.
Torque Owner Eric Jergensen
My gut feeling on this is that you might be better of volunteering on someone else's project for experience. Then, when you've got more skills in place come back to your plans.
In any case, good luck!