@#$@# Eidos!
by Brian Ramage · in General Discussion · 05/30/2004 (11:30 am) · 86 replies
Quote:Ion Storm in Austin Texas, the company responsible for Deus Ex games and the recently released Thief: Deadly Shadows title were rumoured to have laid off 20 to 25 developers.
According to Shack News, multiple sources which remain unnamed have stated that Warren Spector an Executive Producer at Ion Storm and game industry veteran is also said to be leaving.
Publishers and the industry in general have got to figure this shit out. It's outrageous that developers who worked crunch for several months, release a title that gets good reviews and then get laid off days after they ship! Developers have got to unionize, or maybe a contract system like Hollywood uses would work. At least the developers would know they have to find another contract when the game is done and they would get paid appropriately. Maybe even get to work decent hours.
The current system is not working though, I know a few guys who have been through this several times, and I have myself when Dynamix closed. It's not right, people who have dedicated their lives to making games are getting screwed (multiple times).
About the author
I have over 16 years of professional game development experience at both AAA studios like Dynamix, to indie studios like GarageGames and my own Black Jacket Games. I worked for 5 years at GarageGames as the lead developer on TGEA (precursor to T3D).
#82
I'd just like to clarify that the Cynics Guide published above is no more than a - rather impulsive - attempt to lighten the tone of this thread whilst sympathising with the topic, and although it has its uncanny moments, it is not nearly reflective of my own views or experiences; more a sad, wistful, is this where we're going?, kind-of-diatribe.
Besides, if you're really a cynic you'd be too cynical to use a cynics guide.
Groucho Marx: I don't want to be a member of the club that'll have me as a member.
06/02/2004 (5:44 am)
@Joe: Good advise.I'd just like to clarify that the Cynics Guide published above is no more than a - rather impulsive - attempt to lighten the tone of this thread whilst sympathising with the topic, and although it has its uncanny moments, it is not nearly reflective of my own views or experiences; more a sad, wistful, is this where we're going?, kind-of-diatribe.
Besides, if you're really a cynic you'd be too cynical to use a cynics guide.
Groucho Marx: I don't want to be a member of the club that'll have me as a member.
#83
The next morning, as team members came into the building, they were brought into the studio head's office and either laid off or told their were reassigned to a new project, as their project really had been cancelled. I don't recall if anyone else was laid off that day, though I think so.
Now, I don't know if the person giving them the rah-rah speech the day before knew he was lying. But SOMEONE up the chain of command had been extremely dishonest, deceitful, and disrespectful of the human beings who had made the company a LOT of money in the past. I wasn't included in the layoffs, but immediately after that day I started hunting for a new job. Our particular office closed down a year after I left.
I'm in total agreement with Joe here. Like I said before, I really do believe that companies that employ these kinds of unethical business practices are shooting themselves in the foot. It's not universal in the industry (thank goodness!), but it is all-too-common. And it is NOT limited to the games industry, I've learned, after spending a few years on the 'outside.' The horror stories abound. But interestingly enough, the worst horror stories seem to come from the companies that are in the worst financial situations. You can argue all day about which direction the causality flows, but I believe that if you have a reputation for treating your employees like crap, after a while you'll be left with only crappy employees - or those guys who are only using your company as temporary shelter while lining up something better.
I do NOT believe the movie development model is going to work for games, for a couple of reasons:
#1 - It's horribly inefficient. Unionization in Hollywood has pushed the costs of filmmaking to ridiculous extremes. Maybe games will someday get there, but right now I think we're already seeing a problem where the costs of making (top-tier) games is rising MUCH faster than the market is.
#2 - Even so, successful filmmakers are starting to adopt more of a 'team' mentality. While not officially part of any kind of company (that I know of), you'll find that there's a group of directors, writers, cinematographers, producers, other crew members, and even actors that seem to follow each other from movie to movie. I think in part this is to combat the inefficiency of the system (so is the new trend of making several sequels at ONCE to reduce cost). The team of people work well together, know each other's strengths and weaknesses, and have developed a shorthand method of communicating with each other. This gets them over a big part of the learning curve
#3 - American filmmaking is still mainly based in Hollywood - a single geographical area. That's the only place the whole "massive gathering of contractors" would work, really. Yes, you have certain highly paid filmmakers and actors who live outside of Hollywood out of choice (because they can afford to do so). And you are starting to see some 'alternative' little-brother filmmaking locations appear - including New York (I think - or is that just TV), the Salt Lake City Utah area, and - most notably of late - New Zealand. They are coming into existance because of the inefficiency and expense of the Hollywood process. And I think the Hollywood process is slowly changing to match.
06/02/2004 (9:25 am)
I might have you beat on horror stories. The thing that made me leave the games industry (until I went indie...): The management told the development team that not only were the rumors of their project getting cancelled untrue, but they'd been granted a six week (?) extension to get their demo ready to wow the brass. Management pleaded with everyone to take advantage of the six weeks and really work on polishing the latest build, stay focused and put in the extra effort needed. Everyone left the meeting relieved, went to their desks, and started putting in that extra effort. The next morning, as team members came into the building, they were brought into the studio head's office and either laid off or told their were reassigned to a new project, as their project really had been cancelled. I don't recall if anyone else was laid off that day, though I think so.
Now, I don't know if the person giving them the rah-rah speech the day before knew he was lying. But SOMEONE up the chain of command had been extremely dishonest, deceitful, and disrespectful of the human beings who had made the company a LOT of money in the past. I wasn't included in the layoffs, but immediately after that day I started hunting for a new job. Our particular office closed down a year after I left.
I'm in total agreement with Joe here. Like I said before, I really do believe that companies that employ these kinds of unethical business practices are shooting themselves in the foot. It's not universal in the industry (thank goodness!), but it is all-too-common. And it is NOT limited to the games industry, I've learned, after spending a few years on the 'outside.' The horror stories abound. But interestingly enough, the worst horror stories seem to come from the companies that are in the worst financial situations. You can argue all day about which direction the causality flows, but I believe that if you have a reputation for treating your employees like crap, after a while you'll be left with only crappy employees - or those guys who are only using your company as temporary shelter while lining up something better.
I do NOT believe the movie development model is going to work for games, for a couple of reasons:
#1 - It's horribly inefficient. Unionization in Hollywood has pushed the costs of filmmaking to ridiculous extremes. Maybe games will someday get there, but right now I think we're already seeing a problem where the costs of making (top-tier) games is rising MUCH faster than the market is.
#2 - Even so, successful filmmakers are starting to adopt more of a 'team' mentality. While not officially part of any kind of company (that I know of), you'll find that there's a group of directors, writers, cinematographers, producers, other crew members, and even actors that seem to follow each other from movie to movie. I think in part this is to combat the inefficiency of the system (so is the new trend of making several sequels at ONCE to reduce cost). The team of people work well together, know each other's strengths and weaknesses, and have developed a shorthand method of communicating with each other. This gets them over a big part of the learning curve
#3 - American filmmaking is still mainly based in Hollywood - a single geographical area. That's the only place the whole "massive gathering of contractors" would work, really. Yes, you have certain highly paid filmmakers and actors who live outside of Hollywood out of choice (because they can afford to do so). And you are starting to see some 'alternative' little-brother filmmaking locations appear - including New York (I think - or is that just TV), the Salt Lake City Utah area, and - most notably of late - New Zealand. They are coming into existance because of the inefficiency and expense of the Hollywood process. And I think the Hollywood process is slowly changing to match.
#85
Chew up as many sticks as you want, suck up all their blood and sweat, then spit them out when the taste fades.
The management is bubble yum, not only do they get to suck the life from them but they also get to stretch their heads with tons of hot air untill they explode.
All that's left is a happy little brat walking away from the sticky mess they just sucked the life out of.
Besides, they can always go get another pack of gum.
- Christopher "Ronixus" Dapo
06/02/2004 (11:34 am)
Industry is like a kid with a pack of gum.Chew up as many sticks as you want, suck up all their blood and sweat, then spit them out when the taste fades.
The management is bubble yum, not only do they get to suck the life from them but they also get to stretch their heads with tons of hot air untill they explode.
All that's left is a happy little brat walking away from the sticky mess they just sucked the life out of.
Besides, they can always go get another pack of gum.
- Christopher "Ronixus" Dapo
#86
I'm like Phil, I'm very thick skinned, and through years of various forum participation (new to this one however) have a very effective idiot filter. Yet it is still very hard to filter idiocy that strikes close to home.
Any more of the Penny comics - they were great embedded in the thread :)
06/05/2004 (12:13 pm)
This thread was actually very interesting for me, just to hear from some people who have experienced various circumstances. Thanks for sharing :)I'm like Phil, I'm very thick skinned, and through years of various forum participation (new to this one however) have a very effective idiot filter. Yet it is still very hard to filter idiocy that strikes close to home.
Any more of the Penny comics - they were great embedded in the thread :)
Associate Matt Fairfax
PopCap
You might also be interested in reading up on Bioware's development practices. They have refined a very structured system of cycling employees in and out of projects and timing pre-production, production, and post-production team sizes very efficiently (I think they currently maintain 3 active projects in each of those phases). This has allowed them to grow to 150+ extremely happy employees that they don't have to let go every time a project finishes. I'm not saying their strategy is right for everyone but it is worth studying. Read up on the many interviews/articles about their company if you get a chance.