@#$@# Eidos!

#41 Jeff, your a great guy, and I think that your partialy correct on this one, but completely turning Jarrod away is the wrong thing to do. He has helped many people, and someone who helps the community,no matter how different his thought processes, shouldnt be banned.

#42 @Chris

I don't think Jarrod is gonna get banned.

Quote:
I am not going to take this point by point, or even bother to respond to the flaming post that I know will come after this.

#43 On the subject of people being hired for one project, we seem to have also forgotten the fact that this happens to entire studios as well. There have been well over a dozen start-up studios who formed, created a great game, and then were shut down because their publisher got what they wanted out of the studio and didn't feel like throwing them a bone :(

It's an awful cycle to see happen regardless if its on an individual level (ie. a studio having to lay off 30 or so guys because the project was up and they have no more work available) or a company level (ie. studio completes the game but has no more work given to them). Publishers IMHO seem to be trying to act more like the entertainment industry, hiring and firing as projects come and go, as their egos keep in check with (or exceed) the media's hyping of how big the games industry is getting.

If publishers are wondering why game sequels or related IPs aren't doing as well as the original its simple, when you kill some or all of the original team and then put huge constraints on the new guys to not only get the job done but do it better than before you are beginning a recipe for disaster. You cannot keep trying to reinvent the wheel and hope for success.

I guess thats enough rambling from me, time to return to what's important.

Logan

#44 Jeff you having a bad day, that or someone has hacked your account?

I never said anything about anyone at Dynamix or anyone else in particular or personally by name, never meant to imply anyone in particular, if you re-read it I said, that people bitching about getting laid off are usually the commodity employees that are going to have a hard time finding another job and did nothing to make sure they were highly sought after or something like that.

People with skills, ambition and the desire to work will get work, period, those that would rather spend their time bitching about getting laid off should be spending their time learning something new and more valuable.

I know lots of people that got this entitlement attitude from the 'dot.com' boom. Especially in the IT field.

Jeff, you guys might have bitched about what happened to Dynamix you did something about it also, you actually made it into a very positive thing. This is not uncommon, my wifes best friend's dad got laid off from an engineering position, 7 years later the company he founded BECAUSE of the layoff is 10x bigger than the company that laid him off. Getting laid off is not necessarly a bad thing, it is just a thing. You should always be prepared for it regardless of the industry you are in.

Every project I have ever worked, regardless of my salary status( W2 or 1099 or corp-to-corp ) I treat like a one shot deal. I always expect to be looking at the end, if more work from the same source comes up great, if not I am prepared.

I just feel that in TODAY'S environment, people bitching about getting laid off or people bitching about OTHYER people getting laid off as in someway "unfair" is just ridiculous. Maybe it is just my experience, I work in a 'right to work state' every relative or friend that I have that relied on legistlation or extortion tactics from their union to protect their job got screwed by the people they were trusting with their career, instead of taking on the responsiblity themselves.

I don't see what the indignant up-roar is all about, not over a bunch of people that got laid off and probably knew it was coming and it was expected or that my opinion "that people that bitch about getting laid off instead of putting that effort into making sure they are not commondity employees" is a good idea?

This is par for the course in the Film industry, entire studios and production houses are created for one movie and then de-structed at the end of the movie all for financial benefits. Now that the entertainment software industry ( I hesitate to say "games industry" ) is out stripping the Film industry in gross sales they are going to adapt to better financial models, EVERYONE in the industry will have to adapt to the changing conditions or go raise alpacas or somenthing else more "stable".

Jeff I think you guys did a great job of making lemonade with the lemons you had after Dynamix was folded. I think you guys are a shining example that kind of proves my argument. I think you guys are a STELLAR example for anyone else that has a dream or idea about how things should be and the ambition to make it happen.

#45 I think my point was better made by Phil people get hired for a single game should expect the worst, if you don't have something in writing you don't have anything.

I only worked at a single "dot.com" company during the big boom, because I knew it was a fluke and 99.99999% of them were failures before they started, but my contract/project ended and there was no more work to be had at my current client because AOL bought them out and froze all development. So I took a job at a "dot.com", they wanted to low-ball my salary with all these promises of "options"; well I knew better and I said no thanks, give me a competetive salary with real money keep your "options", see "options" are worth less than nothing, you can't pay house or car or grocery bills with "options".

Same with the promise or expectation of work after a project is done when you are hired from one project and that is it. That "promise" or "expectation" is worth nothing and should be treated as such. Well that "dot.com" was broke when they hired me as we all find out 6 months later, and they lied to me and everyone else about their finanances and they laid EVERYONE off one pay-day 6 months later, and stiffed me for 3 weeks and some people for 5 weeks or more pay. But I had work by the end of the next week, because I knew something was funny about 3 days after I took the job, and never really stopped looking for a another opportunity. Just so happens that worked out well, I got a better job with a better client for more money. And I got my 3 weeks of money they owed me eventually.

you should have heard the bitching and moaning from all the people that bought that "options" line and took salaries that were 1/2 or 1/3 the norm and then got NOTHING from all their hours of free overtime and hardwork. This particular company was COMPLETELY mis-managed which is why it failed, anyone could see it after being there 2 days and seeing their source code and complete lack of any kind of standards or methodology or organization or just being a couple of meetings with the company principals.

#46 The issue is not the nature of employment. It's the underhandedness of the publishers that think it's ok to do this.

Games development seems to attract a certain type of person, someone that is willing to put in the brutal time / effort required to complete a game... all for less than they could earn building business apps etc. The suits in the industry have always stretched it to the limit, and now it looks like they're pushing their boundaries even more. Sitting back and accepting it as the status quo eventually leads to really nasty places.

There are in my mind principally two ways to 'build' a business. For a quick buck, or for the long term, this is definitely the first. And they're damaging our industry doing it.

Both the Building / Movie industry that works on a 'contract' basis have set rates that cover that aspect. As a rule of thumb a contract will cost you twice what the 'permy' rate would be. 'Cutting cost' by neglecting to mention this fact to your employee's is usually illegal in the UK.

Obviously we don't know the specifics of the eidos deal so anything about it is just conjecture. The fact eidos is a shadow of its former self shows how 'successful' these short-term strategies have served them.

The 'blaze your own path' speech really is preaching to the converted here. GG being pretty much it's embodiment. That doesn't mean we should just sit back and scoff at the real issues presented here.

#47 Wow.... what an entertaining read. i have no thoughts on this cause im still in art school and at this point can only get together the best damn portfolio possible in hopes of getting a job in the industry. Well, actually, i guess i do have a thought about this; im thinking that even if i do get a job, ill probably be laid off in a year. haha.

but enough of this... things are pretty steamy in here. lets just go out, ill make everyone some nice big smoothies, and we can have a 10 minute cool-down. sound good?

yeah, obviously.

#48 Hey, on a little follow up here. It seems that some of the ion guys didnt actually get much of a severance package and it WAS a surprise to most of them about the layoffs.

Luckily the game dev scene in america is healthy right now, so there's no a big issue in them getting jobs (you should see the amount of offers theyre getting :))

But still.. it sucks. Flat out corporate mentality sucks.

And the fact that theyre still not actually saying its true is just an example of how sucky it is. They even have the balls to suggest Warren Spector hasnt left, which he has.

#49

Quote:someone that is willing to put in the brutal time / effort required to complete a game... all for less than they could earn building business apps etc.

this is not true any more because, building business apps quit being more lucrative about 5 years ago! Entertainment software development positions across the board will pay more because an "entry level" position is like an intermediate position in the 'business app' world.

Now "standard of living" might not be equal, since lots of the big game development companies want you to live somewhere expensive to work for them. And you can get "business app" jobs just about any place, but game positions are mostly in large cities with high cost of living.

#50

Quote:This is par for the course in the Film industry, entire studios and production houses are created for one movie and then de-structed at the end of the movie all for financial benefits.

I disagree with this comparison. People in the film industry have unions. People in the film industry get paid overtime during crunches. People in the film industry are credited for their work and can build up real reputations on their work. People in the film industry are contracted on a per project basis, not hired with vague promises and then fired as soon at they finish a huge crunch. People in directorial positions in the film industry (and many other positions) are usually entitled to profit sharing if a film does well (though the studios are famous for "creative accounting" in claiming that a film pulled no profit).

Independent companies are probaby the only exception to this trend in the industry, and I think that is why we are gradually seeing more experienced developers jumping ship after yet another big layoff and deciding that they can do it themselves, and actually reap appropriate rewards for their sweat and blood.

#51 Edit: No need to fuel any fires.

Back to work, *insert whip cracking sound*

#52 Alex nothing is stopping someone from asking or demanding the same in the software industry, I know I do. I get paid for every hour I work or I don't work, if I have an hour cap per week, I go home. I always get in writing how long my employment should last and have to get another contract signed if they want to keep me over past that 30 - 60 days before the current contract ends. Profit sharing can be negotiated in the software industry also.

People also get canned union or no union. The producers of "Fight Club" got fired because of that film, one of the best films ever made and critically aclaimed that year, they still got fired because the studio lost money on the film. That is one of my favorite all time films, but business is business, I can admire the producers for putting their jobs on the line but I can't fault the studio for what they did either they are in the business to make money, they lost money on it because of SAG, all but one of the actors wanted to do the film below rate, and SAG would not let them, the one actor that held out was required to get the funding to do the movie in the first place, catch 22 and the union screwed the people who were willing to take a chance!

#53 I think I'm going to have to kill this thread, too much bad mojo and complete lack of comprehension about work in the game industry.

I'm just baffled at the comparisions of game development to construction. Does game development in any way resemble banging nails into wood, pouring cement, or rivoting a girder?

I'm going to say it again, because many people still don't get it - THE GAME INDUSTRY DOESN'T WORK BY CONTRACT!. These people have 401ks, they aren't taking a job with the expectation of doing a project and moving on. Some of you may also not understand the pressure to stay and finish a project or the promises/implications that everythign is going to be good when you finish the project. Not to mention the royalty structures that are set up.

I'm also baffled at the "Oh well, that's what you get for developing games for a living" attitude. Incredible.

Another quote from a Gamespot article:

Quote:As to the layoffs, the Eidos exec refused to confirm or deny they had occurred. "With the completion of projects, there is always a review of teams," he said, refusing to comment further.

That sure doesn't sound like a contracting situation to me.

#54 If those people really were contractors, then why did it make any news? If you read a lot of game postmortems, a lot of contractors are used regularly, yet you never hear that they were "let go".

The likely answer is that they were employees who were led to believe their employment was not for "just one project". And that makes it an underhanded and deceitful thing. I've seen it happen in other industries too, but that doesn't make it any less reprehensible.

Edit:Can't spell today.

#55 Electronic game/entertainment development is software development, and like it or not, contracting is where it is at, it is just catching up to all aspects of the software industry, enterainment software development will benefit from it more than anything else.
"review of teams" doesn't not sound like a contracting situation either.

but either way, you should always work like a contractor regardless.

Matthew Coertze's take on working in the software development industry is funny but more accurate any most of you want to believe, and it will just keep getting more and more like that.

Things change . . . just need to be looking far enough ahead to anticipate and adapt.

#56 @Brian: You can kill this thread if you feel it is inappropriate for this community, but it is highly appropriate for the industry in general. This isn't the only "general game development community" thread regarding this topic, and from what I've seen, many people are starting to realize that the movie production industry has many, many parallels to how game development might look in the next generation.

You are right, we don't (currently) have unions, and we don't currently work on a "contract/per project" basis, but it may just be the way things need to go in the industry as a whole. From a corporate perspective, there are resource loads in any project, and there are resource lulls where you just can't finance keeping folks around to do not much. I'm relatively confident that Jeff is going to have to scrounge to find profitable work for the people working on TSE once it is complete, and if it had been appropriate to hire a "project duration" developer or two for TSE, and then let them go (planned, and informed it would happen) the bottom line may have wound up more attractive.

The movie industry has resolved this type of situation, and it may mean that the gaming industry needs to find a model that is similar.

#57

Quote:nothing is stopping someone from asking or demanding the same in the software industry, I know I do. I get paid for every hour I work or I don't work, if I have an hour cap per week, I go home. I always get in writing how long my employment should last and have to get another contract signed if they want to keep me over past that 30 - 60 days before the current contract ends. Profit sharing can be negotiated in the software industry also.

I was not going to comment but this one just got to me. Things don't work like this in the games industry, at least not on the planet I live on. If anyone demanded what you are suggesting, they would never get hired in the first place. I am not saying that what you are suggesting is a bad thing, but there is the ideal and there is reality.

You are totally missing the point of this thread. the games industry does not work on a contract basis. Perhaps it should, and perhaps that is what will begin to happen, but right now, you are hired as a permanant employee, asked to work 80 hour weeks for 'the good of the team', looked on like a traitor if you want a weekend off, and are usually disposed of afterwords.

If there was an understanding that the situation were contract, everyone would behave accordingly. This is not the case.

now, I am a business owner, and I understand business and I am not suggesting a welfare of keeping people around when money is not being made. BUT, when pretty much an entire studio feels the impedning fall of the ax and the people from corporate come down and say 'we are NOT going to close this studio, we have big plans for you...' (only to find out later that at the time they are saying this they knew full well we were going to be shut down and were keeping it hush hush to not affect quarterly earnings and stock prices and whatever other reasons they had to lie to everyone) then there is something wrong.

I am not a child. I understand how the business works here. It does not make it any less lame. I am not whining or crying about it either. I decided that I was no longer going to play the game. On a personal note, I am always looking out for myself and always have a backup plan and an exit strategy. As I was in the landscape construction business before I got into games, I know how to think like an independent contractor. I am not missing your point, but you seem to be missing everyone elses.

#58 The way I see it, discussions about any industry is always good, even if it propagates myth or misunderstanding, at least it makes people think.

I suggest that people who want to make a learned contribution, brush up on some of the history of the gaming industry. There are tons of books out now that show quite thoroughly, some of the trends this industry has taken since it's inception. They can be quite enlightening.

Three I recommend are "Zap" about Atari, "Game Over" -Nintendo, and "The Complete History of Video Game" - an overview of the industry.

These books show some of the corporate battles that took place on the economic battlefield, if you will. Much of it isn't pretty, but there are examples of companies that came out of the fallout pretty much unscathed.

For instance, Electronic Arts run by Tripp Hawkins and Activision, who were the first independent developers and distributor of entertainment software.

Discussion like the above will be much more directed and fruitful if our background is solid.

#59 Jarrod... Just take your toys and go home. You've always been a pain in the ass without much understanding for anyone. You shoot from the hip and you're the kind of person I hate being around. A LOT of people on these forums hate being around you. My mom always said that hate is a strong word, so use it sparingly... I am using it here because I'm sick of your pointless shit that spews forth from your mouth. You have a complete lack of understanding, you don't know what you're talking about, you speak when not spoken to, you openly flame people who could rather be finding help, and you totally lack any redeemable social skills.

If you read this and feel that you need to respond, then you are doing nothing but enforcing what I've said. The bigger man would just go home... Take a hike, don't come back, adios, sayonara, ciao, whatever... just leave.

- Brett

#60 I still dont understand the animosity, but maybe I'm more chill than usual looking forward to a VERY long break :)