Short term art contract work available for Nemesis Vortex
by Stephen Zepp · in Jobs · 05/28/2004 (1:55 pm) · 28 replies
Nemesis Vortex has current requirements for a short term static model project, which includes production and export to (stock) Torque of a few building structures.
Contracters must be willing to sign and return a Contractor Non-Disclosure Agreement, and be able to work within the next 2-6 weeks.
This is a paying contract, but a proposal is required, along with sample work and references.
If you are a dedicated, experienced, and talented 3-D modeller with experience importing fully detailed, and operative models to a standard Torque environment, and are willing to provide quality art for payment to a new project, please contact szepp@nemesis-vortex.com for additional information.
Contracters must be willing to sign and return a Contractor Non-Disclosure Agreement, and be able to work within the next 2-6 weeks.
This is a paying contract, but a proposal is required, along with sample work and references.
If you are a dedicated, experienced, and talented 3-D modeller with experience importing fully detailed, and operative models to a standard Torque environment, and are willing to provide quality art for payment to a new project, please contact szepp@nemesis-vortex.com for additional information.
#2
Certain items that you might want to be more clear about in the future when you post another job application includes:
- What software does the artist need to be running? It's your project and you are contracting out the work, so tell them.
- How much work is involved and what type of work is it? Is the contractor supposed to make a single character model, 7 character models and guns, being a texture artist, DIF creation, Level editing, etc. A contractor needs to know this stuff so that they can ensure that they have the time for the gig and can be certain that it's going to be worth their time to do it.
- Just exactly how much are you going to be paying for this work and when will you be paying? Was the contractor supposed to contact you and negotiate this? Being more clear in the future will help out greatly.
- Tell people a bit more about your project, this will help the contractor know what it's about and it might personally interst them into doing the job for less than what they would normally want.
I know that you have stated 'please contact us if you have additional questions, but in all honesty they shouldn't need to contact you regarding mundane questions that should have been posted in the request.
Another thing to note is that there are a lot of 'joke' or 'BS' postings that people make for their dream project team. As such its difficult for some contractors to tell the serious projects from the hobby ones. This is an item that you will need to clearly communicate in the future.
Lastly, I don't think its in good taste to insult the community in general if you are hoping to gain more contractors from it. This just looks bad and will make people remember you not as a up and coming company that has contract work, but as something completely differnt that leaves a bad name in the community when people hear it.
Logan
PS: Best of luck on your project.
06/06/2004 (1:42 pm)
Stephen, in my honest opinion the reason why you never got any feedback from your posting here is that you were not specific enough and did not communicate your job requirements clearly for people to take any interst.Certain items that you might want to be more clear about in the future when you post another job application includes:
- What software does the artist need to be running? It's your project and you are contracting out the work, so tell them.
- How much work is involved and what type of work is it? Is the contractor supposed to make a single character model, 7 character models and guns, being a texture artist, DIF creation, Level editing, etc. A contractor needs to know this stuff so that they can ensure that they have the time for the gig and can be certain that it's going to be worth their time to do it.
- Just exactly how much are you going to be paying for this work and when will you be paying? Was the contractor supposed to contact you and negotiate this? Being more clear in the future will help out greatly.
- Tell people a bit more about your project, this will help the contractor know what it's about and it might personally interst them into doing the job for less than what they would normally want.
I know that you have stated 'please contact us if you have additional questions, but in all honesty they shouldn't need to contact you regarding mundane questions that should have been posted in the request.
Another thing to note is that there are a lot of 'joke' or 'BS' postings that people make for their dream project team. As such its difficult for some contractors to tell the serious projects from the hobby ones. This is an item that you will need to clearly communicate in the future.
Lastly, I don't think its in good taste to insult the community in general if you are hoping to gain more contractors from it. This just looks bad and will make people remember you not as a up and coming company that has contract work, but as something completely differnt that leaves a bad name in the community when people hear it.
Logan
PS: Best of luck on your project.
#3
I've been an IT manager for several years, and that is not a common requirement for most short term contracts.
06/06/2004 (2:01 pm)
Please note: due to message length requirements, attributions may be trimmed.Quote:Stephen, in my honest opinion the reason why you never got any feedback from your posting here is that you were not specific enough...I can only assume that opinions differ here, but as an independent contractor myself, I normally do contact the contract advertiser for information regarding project specifics. In this particular community (with the plethora of "no compensation" positions) I thought that the concept of payed work would be sufficient for initial contact.
Quote:good point, and I will incorporate this information into future contract statements.
Certain items that you might want to be more clear about in the future when you post another job application includes:
- What software does the artist need to be running? It's your project and you are contracting out the work, so tell them.
Quote:I personally feel that this information is more appropriately provided in the proposal itself (which was available after initial contact). I don't want to spam the community with irrelevant information for those that aren't interested in current opportunities.
- How much work is involved and what type of work is it?
I've been an IT manager for several years, and that is not a common requirement for most short term contracts.
Quote:In every contract work available scenario I have ever been involved with, both as a consultant, and as a provider, this is not information you broadcast to a general community in an initial RFP.
- Just exactly how much are you going to be paying for this work and when will you be paying? Was the contractor supposed to contact you and negotiate this?
Quote:Utilizing the standard Torque Community Project description functionality, our project is fully described, and searchable/selectable via both my personal profile, and searching Projects using "Nemesis Vortex" as a search criteria.
Being more clear in the future will help out greatly.
- Tell people a bit more about your project, ...
Quote:Serious question here, I am not being sarcastic or "joking": Do you want me to post in this forum our entire RFP? In some cases, including background design and definition documentation, that will include 10+ pages.
I know that you have stated 'please contact us if you have additional questions, but in all honesty they shouldn't need to contact you regarding mundane questions that should have been posted in the request.
Quote:I've been a member for more than 2 months, and I know exactly what you mean---I would think, however, that the statement of "This is a paying contract, but a proposal is required" would weed out the "joke" or "BS" community that would respond, while making those that are actually "in the business" of providing these services to take the (small) effort required to establish contact. That was the original intent, in any case.
Another thing to note is that there are a lot of 'joke' or 'BS' postings that people make for their dream project team. As such its difficult for some contractors to tell the serious projects from the hobby ones. This is an item that you will need to clearly communicate in the future.
Quote:I'm not sure exactly how we insulted anyone, and if that is the general perception, I sincerely apologize. I was truly surprised to have a budget for contract artwork and not have anyone whatsoever express any interest. I look forward in the future (as was stated in my follow up post) to individuals, organizations, or corporate entities that are interested in contract work for a funded project.
Lastly, I don't think its in good taste to insult the community in general...
Quote:Thanks, it is much appreciated...and things are going very well indeed!
PS: Best of luck on your project.
#4
06/06/2004 (3:11 pm)
Edit: Ignore Me.
#5
Contracters must be willing to sign and return a Contractor Non-Disclosure Agreement
This is a paying contract, but a proposal is required
Made me not respond. On the second sentence quoted, it may have been me misunderstanding what you wrote, but it sounded like you were putting out an RFP (request for proposals), which we never do. We do straight contract work, and have found that most of the bid based contracts turn into a long drawn out email or phone exchange that leads to no work.
We do professional level game work, and having worked on over 12 shipped titles, we know what it takes to get the job done. Nonewithstanding the fact that we know what we are doing, on
for bid' projects, we often get underbid by individuals with less experienece.
On the first quoted line, we have no problem with signing an NDA once the job starts, but again, given our experience, this sort of thing posted upfront means that the entity in question may not have much experience with this sort of work.
Not saying the approach you are taking is bad.. just pointing out that I think you may have eliminated a few serious and professional people with the wording of the firt two sentences...
The two taken together made me go.. hmm...
-lots of email exchanges to get requirements, request for proposal, we will get underbid, not worth the effort.-
Note that I also commented in a thread that you could contact me via email (in the %*(A&$ Eidos thread), which you never did.
lastly.. having been here for a while, I can assure you that even the 'willign to pay $$$' job offers are often not all that serious, with the posters often not having a very good idea of how much contract artwork costs. We have been through a few exchanges where the poster was not prepared to pay professional rates for professional serivces. This is not a slight to them, they just honestly had no idea what it costs to get work game ready.
So, I read the link and thought about cotacting you.. but the post you (and your team-members) have made here on the forums did not give me the confidence to make the call that you were more serious than many of the other startup up indie teams that often, after several emails say,
"well, we can pay, but we are a startup, so we can't pay that"
and I agree with Logan.. not good to insult the community.
Sorry if you were not impressed by the response.. I was not impressed enough by your posting or your bio to make me feel it was worth my time. (and don't take that as an insult, I just need to be careful where I spend my time, and this offer, based on my experience with similar offers, did not sound like it would lead to work for our shop)
Hope this helps. good luck with the project, and if you are interested in contracting out artwork and have funds to pay for it, you can contact me (email in in my profile)
Joe
06/06/2004 (3:49 pm)
Just thought I would follow up as well.. we do contract work, but these two things:Contracters must be willing to sign and return a Contractor Non-Disclosure Agreement
This is a paying contract, but a proposal is required
Made me not respond. On the second sentence quoted, it may have been me misunderstanding what you wrote, but it sounded like you were putting out an RFP (request for proposals), which we never do. We do straight contract work, and have found that most of the bid based contracts turn into a long drawn out email or phone exchange that leads to no work.
We do professional level game work, and having worked on over 12 shipped titles, we know what it takes to get the job done. Nonewithstanding the fact that we know what we are doing, on
for bid' projects, we often get underbid by individuals with less experienece.
On the first quoted line, we have no problem with signing an NDA once the job starts, but again, given our experience, this sort of thing posted upfront means that the entity in question may not have much experience with this sort of work.
Not saying the approach you are taking is bad.. just pointing out that I think you may have eliminated a few serious and professional people with the wording of the firt two sentences...
The two taken together made me go.. hmm...
-lots of email exchanges to get requirements, request for proposal, we will get underbid, not worth the effort.-
Note that I also commented in a thread that you could contact me via email (in the %*(A&$ Eidos thread), which you never did.
lastly.. having been here for a while, I can assure you that even the 'willign to pay $$$' job offers are often not all that serious, with the posters often not having a very good idea of how much contract artwork costs. We have been through a few exchanges where the poster was not prepared to pay professional rates for professional serivces. This is not a slight to them, they just honestly had no idea what it costs to get work game ready.
So, I read the link and thought about cotacting you.. but the post you (and your team-members) have made here on the forums did not give me the confidence to make the call that you were more serious than many of the other startup up indie teams that often, after several emails say,
"well, we can pay, but we are a startup, so we can't pay that"
and I agree with Logan.. not good to insult the community.
Sorry if you were not impressed by the response.. I was not impressed enough by your posting or your bio to make me feel it was worth my time. (and don't take that as an insult, I just need to be careful where I spend my time, and this offer, based on my experience with similar offers, did not sound like it would lead to work for our shop)
Hope this helps. good luck with the project, and if you are interested in contracting out artwork and have funds to pay for it, you can contact me (email in in my profile)
Joe
#6
Serious question here:
I can't see how a business contract can even begin without a Request for Proposal, personally--that's from 5 years of Government Contracting and 7 years of personal contract negotiations...
06/06/2004 (4:44 pm)
I guess that my initial guesstimation of the community was too restrictive--I was hoping that the more business oriented organizations would initiate contact.Serious question here:
Quote:I've never experienced a contractor/sub-contractor scenario where an RFP guaranteed a negative response...what would have been a better need advertisement?
Contracters must be willing to sign and return a Contractor Non-Disclosure Agreement
This is a paying contract, but a proposal is required
---
Made me not respond. On the second sentence quoted, it may have been me misunderstanding what you wrote, but it sounded like you were putting out an RFP (request for proposals), which we never do
I can't see how a business contract can even begin without a Request for Proposal, personally--that's from 5 years of Government Contracting and 7 years of personal contract negotiations...
#7
06/06/2004 (5:08 pm)
Not all experience translates or even applies.
#8
Again, no trying to be arrogant or "all-knowing", but if that is the case, it goes a decent way towards explaining why so many gaming companies fail. You just have to recognize common business practices if you want to be successful in the mainstream economy.
06/06/2004 (5:12 pm)
@Josh: So you are saying that game development consultation is some "special category" where normal business practices don't apply?Again, no trying to be arrogant or "all-knowing", but if that is the case, it goes a decent way towards explaining why so many gaming companies fail. You just have to recognize common business practices if you want to be successful in the mainstream economy.
#9
Game development credibility is very hard to get... it doesn't spring from a magic fountain of government contract work... It also doesn't happen by picking a game name and opening some forums.
Professionalism is more than contracts and a small chunk of time. It certainly doesn't entail finger pointing. So, I say: Neener, neener
06/06/2004 (5:38 pm)
This is very simple... the person you were looking for either didn't see your post, wasn't interested in your post, misunderstood your post, or doesn't hang around in this pond. By taking the tone of "this community needs to get it's shit together!", you are putting people on the defensive, which in turn, will draw attention to the weakness of your original post.Game development credibility is very hard to get... it doesn't spring from a magic fountain of government contract work... It also doesn't happen by picking a game name and opening some forums.
Professionalism is more than contracts and a small chunk of time. It certainly doesn't entail finger pointing. So, I say: Neener, neener
#10
I'm not complaining too much, seriously. I would like to see our budget go back to the Torque Community, but if we have to, we can spend it elsewhere...I'm just worried that a less specialized community will provide less of a return on investment.
Quite blatently and open, if "we were dissapointed" means a community blackmark for being "down on the community"...aighty then. I tried to phrase it politely. Obviously this is a sensitive issue.
To be fully blunt: We have budget available. If the community isn't interested, we'll look elsewhere. I'm not particularly interested in perception games, especially when I took particular care to bring the funds to the community prior to looking for outside resources.
06/06/2004 (5:58 pm)
@Josh, you are correct, however, I would honestly expect money (cash in pocket) to have a credibilty of it's own...unfortunately it does seem that the community may be jaded in this respect as well.I'm not complaining too much, seriously. I would like to see our budget go back to the Torque Community, but if we have to, we can spend it elsewhere...I'm just worried that a less specialized community will provide less of a return on investment.
Quite blatently and open, if "we were dissapointed" means a community blackmark for being "down on the community"...aighty then. I tried to phrase it politely. Obviously this is a sensitive issue.
To be fully blunt: We have budget available. If the community isn't interested, we'll look elsewhere. I'm not particularly interested in perception games, especially when I took particular care to bring the funds to the community prior to looking for outside resources.
#11
... and then ..
The use of the word "Vortex" in your game's title is probably fitting. Are you sure you don't want to say, "9th Generation Massively Multiplayer Persistent Interactive Environment"? Especially when you consider the 2007 launch. It sounds WAY more impressive.
Anyway, I think you are misjudging the exposure a thread has... there were maybe 3 qualified artists that even saw your post??? Come on.
As a professional game programmer, I wouldn't respond to such an ad looking for coding talent. Whether or not there were some bucks promised. This type of project, with absolutely nothing to show, is a dime a dozen. In fact, they are weeds.
06/06/2004 (6:37 pm)
Some reality:Quote:Nemesis Vortex is a 3rd Generation Massively Multiplayer Persistent Interactive Environment
... and then ..
Quote:Nemesis Vortex is in the Initial Design phase of an iterative/prototyping lifecycle methodology, and is scheduled for commercial release after Q1 2007
The use of the word "Vortex" in your game's title is probably fitting. Are you sure you don't want to say, "9th Generation Massively Multiplayer Persistent Interactive Environment"? Especially when you consider the 2007 launch. It sounds WAY more impressive.
Anyway, I think you are misjudging the exposure a thread has... there were maybe 3 qualified artists that even saw your post??? Come on.
As a professional game programmer, I wouldn't respond to such an ad looking for coding talent. Whether or not there were some bucks promised. This type of project, with absolutely nothing to show, is a dime a dozen. In fact, they are weeds.
#12
P.S. That's FUNDED budget, not vapor.
06/06/2004 (6:52 pm)
Aight, I guess I'll go show the 10k budget for this month elsewhere--for prototype/concept art.P.S. That's FUNDED budget, not vapor.
#13
I am sure you'll do fine. In fact, I know some REALLY good concept artists. $10k buys you a good amount of their time.
06/06/2004 (6:56 pm)
"Aight, I guess I'll go show the 10k budget for this month elsewhere--for prototype/concept art."I am sure you'll do fine. In fact, I know some REALLY good concept artists. $10k buys you a good amount of their time.
#14
06/06/2004 (6:59 pm)
@Josh: P.S. Everquest had a 2.7+ year development cycle, and Shadowbane took more than 5 years from concept to Gold...so what is your point? 3 years is conservative, and anyone with a real business plan behind an MMOG will explain it to you if you like...
#15
Zing!
06/06/2004 (7:03 pm)
I must escape this negative vortex of a thread... but yes, three years is conservative, and you missed the point entirely.Zing!
#16
06/06/2004 (7:08 pm)
@Josh: didn't miss the point at all; however, you've single handedly assured that this is not the place to find contract work. Reference This Thread as to why that is a bad thing for the community of Independent Game Developers.
#17
@Josh: Again, not sure why you elected to provide a negative perspective for the community in general regarding contract work, especially in light of the recent discussions. As far as I am aware, regardless of the "future potential" of a specific project, contracted cash is money in pocket. If this type of response is indicative of commercial projects that choose to use the TGE, then I can see a dim future for the SDK in general, unfortunately.
06/06/2004 (7:22 pm)
Community note: Not sure where the antagonism came from--possibly the fact that this post was offering a cash for work proposal?@Josh: Again, not sure why you elected to provide a negative perspective for the community in general regarding contract work, especially in light of the recent discussions. As far as I am aware, regardless of the "future potential" of a specific project, contracted cash is money in pocket. If this type of response is indicative of commercial projects that choose to use the TGE, then I can see a dim future for the SDK in general, unfortunately.
#18
06/06/2004 (7:28 pm)
A couple people gave you really good feedback. I chose to comment on the project specifically. My mistake, and I apologize. I am usually able to hold my tongue on 3rd Generation MMORPG Madness(tm). This time, my will failed.
#19
Also, you actually typed "Aight" later in the thread, which is enough of a reason on its own, IMO.
06/06/2004 (7:33 pm)
It is pretty clear where the antagonism came from -- your initial followup post. The one that reads like a slam on the entire GarageGames artist community.Also, you actually typed "Aight" later in the thread, which is enough of a reason on its own, IMO.
#20
Everquest is a -very- successful game, and is, from a design and evolution of the MMOG genre standpoint, almost literally a dinosaur. If the genre is going to evolve, it's going to happen in the Indy community, and no where else.
It might make sense to provide constructive, instead of destructive feedback (or at least not respond at all) to projects that are attempting to evolve the genre, but that might just be me.
06/06/2004 (7:33 pm)
@Josh: I do understand that the topic happens to be one of your "pet peeves", but I would suggest that it isn't appropriate to slam projects because of your personal perspective.Everquest is a -very- successful game, and is, from a design and evolution of the MMOG genre standpoint, almost literally a dinosaur. If the genre is going to evolve, it's going to happen in the Indy community, and no where else.
It might make sense to provide constructive, instead of destructive feedback (or at least not respond at all) to projects that are attempting to evolve the genre, but that might just be me.
Torque 3D Owner Stephen Zepp
Community Note: We did not receive any requests for further information from this post. We are committed to using the Torque General Community as our first provider for contract (paying) work, but for this project we were not impressed with the general community feedback/requests for further information. In the future, we hope to expand our initial vendor contact and preferred vendor contact lists from within the community in general.
If you are a talented and motivated 2-D, 3-D(static), or 3-D(Animation) artist looking for contract work, we would hope that you respond to our future requests for proposals and be placed on our initial/preferred vendor lists.
Nemesis Vortex Project