a different kind of Torque project

#21 overlay engine is a pretty good nomenclature.

i forgot to mention above that the whole joystick thing is after URGE and if its a success. the keyboard is capable of everything necessary, it just sacrifices speed. and there are a number of other gaming products (essentially secondary keyboards with added gaming features) that could bridge the gap.

#22 just read you guys posts on skills systems, and i just have to reiterate: the Hero System. its as perfect a point system ive ever seen. it can do anything, from skills to talents to attributes, superpowers, magic, psionics, and everything in between. if they will license it, i will definitely use it. and since theyve been cash-strapped as long as i can remember, i dont see why they wouldnt.

#23 (more random thoughts)

Are you familiar with Neverwinter Nights? That is great example of something sort of similar to URGE. That game/engine concept really goes the extra mile with easy gui drag-and-drop level/world creation. In the videos they show the guy raising and lowering terrain with mouse dragging like the old Populous game, dropping fully coded objects onto the terrain, and more.

You know Startopia has a beautifully simple and fairly powerful terrain editor built-in. I don't know much about the Torque terrain editor/generator, but if someone could make something like the Startopia one for an engine as good as Torque that was as easy to use and simple, the results would be amazing.

On the skill note, I'm not familiar with the Hero System. I'm intrigued now by your comments though.

#24 as an aspiring game designer interested in rpgs, you should definitely buy the hero system rulebook. its flexibility cant really be described, you'll just have to see for yourself. i think its like 25 bucks or so.

and yes, ive been following NWN in development very closely. i got a lot of my ideas after reading about it. to be honest, my design for URGE is exactly like NWN in many ways. i think biowares approach has a lot of promise, and they are clever to take the best parts of pnp rpgs, which are radically different from what passes for an rpg on a computer. the advantages of using a referee/dungeonmaster are simply mind boggling. the difference between a programmed ai and a devious, imaginative referee is profound.

i used to be intrigued by mmorpgs, until i played asheron's call. after the umpteenth, "hey, whats your name? lets go level in the everstocked dungeon," i saw the writing on the wall.

with NWN, and hopefully URGE, players (up to 60 or so?) will be able to join a group whose chemistry they like and be led by one (or more, with URGE at least) referee on a well-planned adventure with a living intelligence. while the dm is not required, having one will doubtless provide a much better experience.

#25

Quote:no sarcasm intended, but could you be more specific? :)

I mean that you're in effect telling people what they should make their game with rather than giving them a flexible base. Your web page has a list of the skills. You're saying that's the list and that's what designers have to use. You're specifying everything without giving the designers a choice as to how to form their game.

You say the Hero System is great. It very well may be, but it might not be want I want to structure my game on. Perhaps with URGE you want to create a basic control system for the key components of an RPG, and create an "STL" for it that uses the low-level components to run a Hero System game.

Granular flexibility is important. Someone might want to use components of yours, but if they're not interested in everything else they'll use something else. Let new users do their games with the Hero System, but if the niggly ones want more let them have it.

Quote:to be honest, my design for URGE is exactly like NWN in many ways.

You should differentiate URGE from NWN as much as possible. It's kinda silly for two teams to work on the same project, especially when I have a pretty good idea which product will arrive first (no slight to you, it's just the reality of the situation).

#26 the list of skills is just a jumping off point. from what little i know of programming, a lot of the skills seem to be easy on the coding side and heavy on the animation/art side (an oversimplification i know). if designers want to just create the world without worrying about how things work, they can find a robust set of skills and the like to play with. if they want to create their own set, thats fine too. however, it seems from your posts that you might be a little confused as to what my goals are for URGE. URGE is intended to create 1st/3rd person action/shooter/rpgs. if someone wants to make a side scroller, or a isometric perspective rts, or somesuch, thats fine, but the URGE is not for them. if someone has ever played unreal, or quake, or doom, or duke nukem, or rune, and thought, "wow, thats really cool, but i wish i could pick locks, or climb a friggin wall, or sit in a chair, or do one of a million things besides shooting that i could do in the real world" then the URGE is for them. if im wrong about your perceptions i apologize in advance. the whole point is to free up the creativity of the designer so he neednt worry about game mechanics, except to tweak them.

on one level, however, you are correct, i presented a list of skills and didnt say much in the 'doc' about custom skills. but i think youre making more of this than its worth. the fact is that skills, if we can put the story's setting aside for a moment, change little from one reality to the next, as long as your list has enough breadth (really wish i could refer to the hero system here, it handles any genre effortlessly). the only debate is in what to call a skill and how general or narrow to make each skill. im of the camp that says the olympic pole vaulter uses his polevaulting specialization of the athletics skill (made up example), rather than a combination of running, spear proficiency, athletics, etc. does that make any sense? i dunno.

now, i know the setting does make a lot of difference in the skill set available, but that has nothing to do with whats possible. for instance, just because the citizens of Regulon in the Delta quadrant use nanomachines to forge their metal, and dont even know what a medieval forge is, doesn't mean conan couldn't make a sword in a rigged up smithy if he found himself on their planet. not the best example, but you get the point.

now, the hero system is indeed great, but ive definitely given the wrong impression as to how i intend to incorporate it into the URGE and its purpose. the hero system will be the underlying 'symbolic' language the URGE uses to resolve actions, give values to attributes, skills, powers, etc. and it will be, at the base level, how the referee or level designer creates enemies' stats, etc. but it by no means needs to be the way the players see and interact with the game. its just the underlying level (and hero system is interchangeable here with whatever point value and action resolution system ends up in the URGE). when that fireball is cast at the ogre, hero will determine how much damage is done. theres no reason the damage report cant consist of "100 hp damage to Ogre!" or "three wounds to opponent!" or "the Ogre staggers back, mortally wounded!" i myself prefer to show the damage with animation, but that is neither here nor there. the point is that the Hero system is the 'symbolic' layer.

as for similarity to NWN, i was speaking i pretty general terms. NWN is genre specific, the URGE will be anything but. NWN will probably end up leaving modeling and animation and particle effects and custom spells and custom almost everything else up in the air, if not impossible. NWN uses an rts like aerial view, the URGE will be identical to games like Jedi Knight in terms of camera view. NWN will allow modding, the URGE will be all about modding. most NWN tilesets (URGE wont use tilesets) will be proprietary, URGE content will be (hopefully) almost entirely user-created. NWN is turn based, the URGE will be real time. this is all without considering that the combat (and skill, and magic, etc.) system in NWN will not be anything even remotely similar to the URGE's, which will be wholly customizeable and use hit location and physics. i could go on and on, but you get the idea. the fundamental focus of the two games will be worlds apart.

no slight perceived, since NWN is a large, professional project nearing completion, while the URGE is at this point a lot of hot air :).

#27 I think I see both of your points regarding skills. Adam is concerned that some developers may not want to use the Hero system, regardless of how great you think it is and it actually may be. A lot of roleplayers have a specific system that they like and want to use. So his point seems to be that if you force everyone to use the Hero system, then those that want to use a different system like D&D, Cyberpunk, or GURPS will just say forget it and walk away.

What I see Jeff's point being is that the Hero system is perfect (in his opinion, I don't know it) for the underlying symbolic action resolution engine (adjective mania). Jeff seems to be saying that the Hero system is of such a nature that you can then add whatever system you like on top of it. If you like D&D, then you add that on top of the Hero integrated in URGE, and for all practical purposes your game uses the D&D system. For example:

1) Torque - base engine layer

2) URGE with integrated Hero resolution - overlay engine layer

3) RPG system desired - presentation layer


Does that present the two sides well? I think it's very interesting that URGE is beginning to look like a networking OSI model. Perhaps it could use aspects of the OSI concept in it's planning. Here's the 7 layer OSI model. The number one represents the lowest layer of the model, while the number seven is the uppermost layer of the model, which the user interacts with.


1) Physical Layer

2) Data Link Layer

3) Network Layer

4) Transport Layer

5) Session Layer

6) Presentation Layer

7) Application Layer


See the similarities? I also agree with Jeff regarding NWN. That is a very specific game, with an unchangable RPG system, completely prefabricated to make one type of game. I think NWN will leave a lot of gamers with the desire for more flexibility to do other things. In reality, it's possible that NWN could stir up immense interest in the gaming community to pave the way for a broader concept like URGE. Kind of like free advertising for this whole category of product.

#28 One quick comment about control.....

Have you seen Microsoft's Strategic Commander? Sounds like exactly what you're looking for.

#29 The "layers" I had envisioned were as follows:

1. Torque for graphics.
2. URGE system for describing how RPG-specific systems work (i.e., this is how conversations work into gameplay, stats can affect things like so, etc.).
3. Hero System overlay. Comes with a number of scripts for URGE that tell it how to play a Hero System game. My point is that every RPG system-specific coding should go into this layer, rather than be hard-coded into the engine. That way other users can take or leave what they want while still having a solid RPG-oriented foundation to code on.
4. User friendly editors and presentation.

#30 I've enjoyed the discussion going on in this forum and would like to add to it. I think the URGE concept is a great idea. I agree that what is needed is a basic system that allows the developer/designer to have as much flexibility as possible. A certain basic set of skills and attributes would be great, that way you could just grab if you wanted to get started laying out your game right away. Then lay over the top of that a set of tools that allow you to create skills on the fly. The skills created on the fly could come from any area and be supported by anything. If you just wanted a one or two use skill, it could be based on attributes. If it was a commonly used skill it could be a mix of attributes and base skills. If it was a specialized skill it would be a combination of the above and experience/skill level in the specialized area. These wouldn't have to be the only combinations or possibilites but they get the idea across.

Here's an example:

In a fantasy based game, your character needs to get over a wall. The only way he can do it in secret is to not actually climb over the wall but to pole-vault (I'm not coping your thought from above, I actually had this thought yesterday just before you posted the comment about the pole-vaulter). Your character is a warrior/knight of some sort who happens to have know jousting and have a the neccessary tools or has a lance available already. Keep in mind these are just examples.

Case 1: A one-time skill or background skill. You don't want to have to worry about whether the character has the skills neccessary to do a pole vault, just that he/she is physically cabable of doing it. You only expect them to need this skill this once, maybe twice.

The skill would be based upon attributes:

Strength - as you run you are carring a large heavy wooden pole, need to run fast enough and not drop the pole. The player would need to know how far back they have to start running from in order to be at top speed when they begin the vault, but not to far or they will start to get tired and slow down.

Accuracy - you need to touch the end of the pole in just the right place to complete the vault successfully by beginning the arc right. The better the accuracy the easier it would be for the player to touch the pole down at just the right spot.

Agility - When you start the arc, you need to be able to bend and flex both yourself and the pole correctly to sail over the wall and land safely on the other side. Makes it easier for the player to control themselves while in the air.

In this case, the skill is behind the scenes and you don't need to worry about learning anything in order to complete the vault. Just good physical attributes and coordination on the players part. This would probably be best suited to more of a shooter, less an RPG type of game.

Case 2: A common skill. A mix of the attributes and some basic skills. It starts with the above attributes, they would still be neccessary for the player to get over the wall, but this time some skills would be involved as well. Here are some possibilities.

Education: In most fantasy tales, most of the people are extremely uneducated. Your character would need a basic education to understand what is needed for the vault to work.

Combat/Staff weapons training: Whatever the basic skills would be that would help you carry/manuever the pole as you run.

Jumping/landing: the skill for helping control yourself in the air and landing safely from a moderate height.

There may only be one basic skill needed or a combination of several. This would work better if your game was more RPG but you didn't want to have the player be specialized in order to beat some of the more out of the ordinary areas of the game.

Case 3: A specialized skill. Take Case 2 and add more skills and maybe even a pole-vaulting skill. The better the related skills, the better the pole-vaulting skill would be. The more experienced you are with pole-vaulting, the high walls/rooftops you would be able to get over/onto.

This would work great if the game wants you to personally develop skills for your character to match his/her profession. Instead of a warrior/knight type, your character is most likely to be a thief who uses this skill to get to areas that aren't accessable any other way, but are common in the game.


I know that it would probably be more difficult to code in a system that would give you this kind of freedom, and the tools that would go with it would also might be more complex, but I think that a system like this would make everybody happiest in the long run.

#31 daniel, thats pretty much what i was trying to say, with the layer thing. im still undecided about, the final layer. the URGE layer may or may not end up using the hero system, since that decision is out of my hands, but this layer will obviously consist of something. the layer on top of that is up for debate. there is a LOT to be done to implement the URGE, and the semantics of the rules system, ie, whether a skill is called spear chucking or thrown weapons or whatever, is way down the list of priorities. if my coders end up telling me that itll require more work than i think its worth, itll go bye bye. this might sound a little opinionated (which i am), but the hero system is the best system out there, period. that is fact, really, not opinion. not because its perfect, but because the competition isnt even close. the hero systems drawbacks really dont apply to my situation. for instance, many people dont like the secondary products and support for hero, and i dont blame them, but i dont need that stuff. another common complaint is that the rules are a bit cumbersome, especially character creation - a bit of math to work through. this doesnt matter nearly as much when action is resolved a gigahertz, and not at all when the computer does all the calculations during character creation.

i feel that a good system like hero or whatever, one that can handle a great many scenarios, is the most important thing. if the system you have is good and very flexible, then you'll have fewer complaints from users. and id rather have the URGE complete and released than perfect and on the drawing board. and youre correct, simple rpgs like d&d etc can all be simulated with the hero system rules. the reverse is not true.

adam, i still dont quite understand what you mean. in layer 2 you think there should be stats, but in layer 3 there should be every rpg system-specific coding. stats (i presume you mean strength, intelligence, etc.) are rpg specific. if youre trying to say that skills are the single most differentiating factor in an rpg, and should therefore be totally up to a designer, i disagree. every score, be it stat, ability, trait, skill, power, or whatever, contributes to the uniqueness of an rpg. i do agree somewhat that putting a name on a skill can be more difficult and arbitrary than categorizing 'stats', because the former are learned and the latter innate.

this whole discussion has definitely made me more aware of how much work will go into the URGE, especially in light of Peters comments. it also has me leaning more towards using a single rpg system rather than making things customizable, for the same reasons i started thinking about the URGE in the first place. say for example, the URGE is released, and Peter loves it, but it doesnt include pole-vaulting. say he goes about making a mod, and wants to include it. with a common system, everyone who plays URGE could use it if he made it public domain. with another layer on top, things might become unnecessarily complicated.
i agree that the ability to make up new skills (and stats, etc.) is absolutely necessary, but i dont think that its that difficult to come up with a system that can cover all the bases, at least within reason. customization is often just a simple decision to not include some of the features available in an rpg, ie, starship navigation is obviously not an option for conan.

and i definitely plan to include a way for designers to rename anything they want, which will go a long way towards delivering a certain flavor to their game without adding a lot of extra calculations.

as for a lot of the other stuff you suggested, learning as you go and whatnot, thats up to the player and the dm to control. in terms of game mechanics, the skill or whatever is referred to by the engine, modifiers for difficulty are applied, and a result is obtained. then the corresponding animation is played. if players want to get better at a skill or whatever, they must use experience points to do so. the dm can regulate how this is done, for instance restricting improvements to skills actually used. concerning micromanagement of skills and breaking up each task into its components, its far beyond what i think ill be able to do. in the pole-vaulting example, you would just make up a skill (probably a specialization of athletics), along with cost, linked attribute(s), a list of modifiers, and then on to the hard part, a series of animations showing a scale of results ranging from perfect success to absolute failure.
a character attempts to pole vault, a roll is made by the computer, and the corresponding animation is played. probably the only aspects the player would have control over would be running speed and direction, and the timing of the vaulting attempt. not to say that someone couldnt code a track and field engine later, with precise control over every aspect though...

#32 Sorry for being vague. I mean that at some level in URGE, there shouldn't be anything game system-specific about anything. At that low level, the engine should know what a stat is and how they operate, how to run conversations, how to move characters around maps, etc. At a level above that, you tell the engine what the stats are the Hero System uses, what particular skills exist, etc. Granted this is more complicated to engineer, but the results would be worth it for creative developers. Many DIY tools for games have failed I think due to a lack of flexibility and expandability. If you're creating a system based on something everyone already loves and uses (like what NWN intends to do) then it's no big deal to limit yourself. However, it's a good idea to have your bases covered in case you're the only one who likes the Hero System. Maybe you want to make the expandability more difficult by having people make their own .dlls using an URGE SDK to build new stats and stuff based on generic classes. That might provide flexibility without having to bend over backwards to provide it.

#33 ok Adam, i think i get your point now, although youre still separating stats from the rpg itself, which i think isnt consistent with what youre saying. while stats may be innate and all people are born with the same ones (not the scores mind you), there is a great deal of latitude possible in assigning them names. some people for instance might divide the thinking part of a human into intelligence (or reason, logic, intellect), intuition, willpower, and charisma. others might say wisdom, logic, and psyche. or left brain and right brain.

but your suggestion that conversations, movement, fighting, etc be separate from the player-modifiable aspects of the URGE is spot-on. for combat, for example, i want the fighting animations, hit-locations and physics at the base level. like a 3d tekken-style, where the player just sticks and moves, and uses button imput to select moves. then, in a separate layer, the roleplaying aspect modifies things. for example, a character with more speed goes through his animations more quickly, and with more strength causes more damage, and with more agility is less likely to trip over his own feet doing that reverse spin heel kick. problem is, the information the combat engine is looking for will require a specific format. so you might want to use a strength scale of 1-10, for instance, but at some point it will need translating into the 1-20 scale the URGE might use.

the best analogy i can use is the object-oriented approach, at least as i understand it. this way you can pick and choose anything and everything. each move, action or the like is a distinct entity. i doubt ill have the time or resources to include an rpg-system maker, but theres no reason a developer couldnt swap the base rules engine with their own.

i have sort of been clarifying this to myself as im explaining it, so forgive me if i sound as thought any of this is hard and fast. i only have the spirit of the URGE solidly formed, not the body.

also, if by classes you mean fighter, ranger, wizard, etc., there youre on your own. i think classes represent pigeonholing at its finest. i like point based systems much better. and you can still use templates with point based systems, ie a package of skills and modifiers to stats that a player can buy for a preditermined point cost. i guess the idea of a class in the first place was to simulate a career of sorts, but it just doesnt hold water. im a construction worker. does that mean i cant practice 3dsmax in my spare time? or that i cant have a higher stat in intelligence than strength? or even that what im best at is construction?

in any event, you really should check out the hero system before you pass judgement. id be willing to wager that you can accomplish anything you like with it, if i get to use it that is (hope, hope, could save me a lot of time and money). and dont worry, the URGE will not be a game with some DIY tools stuck on at the back end as an afterthought, itll be the reverse.