Best Commercial or non-commercial 3D modeler
by Ryu Hayabusa · in General Discussion · 05/08/2004 (12:12 am) · 31 replies
This was some of my research into various 3D Modeling tools and packages at various pricepoints. My questions to the forum would be, which would you choose when considering price/ease/performance/branding?.
Also, do you think the modeling program you use affects the viability of your product? What i mean by that is, does using a freeware tool vice using 3DS max essentially make your game look second-hand either in actual looks or in the publisher's eyes?
A small group of us were planning to develop a simple game but haven't settled on a 3D modeling tool yet. We have the capital to buy any, this isn't the point. The point is, does paying 3k vice 49 dollars put you ahead in any way?
I feel slightly biased that in my eyes, YES, knowing that someone used an expensive 3D modeler does make me give them more credit. We currently have a modeler who uses LightWave 7 and a modeler who uses trueSpace 6.6 and i tend to view the LightWave guy as 'more advanced' even though they can produce the same quality of work. Is this true in anyone else's eyes? Are you taken more or less serious depending on what you choose?
While i was doing this comparison i was on NewTeks site(Lightwave) and looked at their 'competive price' section and thought it was interesting to note that they only listed Maya, 3D Studio Max, SoftImage, Cinema 4D and Mirai as being 'competition'. That kind of made me say, wow, so where does everything else fall? Where's trueSpace 6? Carrera? Pixel 3D? Strata 3D?
Any comments that can shed any light ontop anything mentioned would be appreciated. If anything, this list can help and new developer find a tool which works for their pricepoint. [Note: Only reason i mention trueSpace many times is because their gameSpace sister product looked rather interesting.]
PRICE URL SOFTWARE NAME
[unknown] http://www.izware.com/news/index.htm MIRAI / NENDO
(company restarting, looks rather neat)
[free] http://www.blender3d.com/ BENDER 3D
(source available, can't beat free, unless free is hard to use...)
[49] http://www.ac3d.org/pages/introduction AC3D
[109] http://nevercenter.com/index.php/Home/254 SILO 1.2
[299] http://www.hash.com/ Animation Master
[399] http://www.eitechnologygroup.com/ Universe 8, Amorphium 3
[399] http://www.eovia.com/carrara/product_intro_car3.jsp Carrara Studio 3
[399] http://www.pixels3d.com/ Pixel3D v5
[595] http://www.caligari.com/ TrueSpace 6.6
(gameSpace provides direct Torque integration)
[595] http://www.maxon.net/index_e.html Cinema 4D R8.5
[695] http://www.strata.com/products/ Strata 3D pro
[895] http://www.rhino3d.com/ Rhinoceros 3D
[1595] http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/index.php LightWave 8
[1995] http://www.softimage.com/home/ SoftImage XSI v4
[2000] http://www.alias.com/eng/index_flash.shtml Maya 6
[3495] http://www.discreet.com/ 3DS Max 6
[Edit: corrected some prices]
Also, do you think the modeling program you use affects the viability of your product? What i mean by that is, does using a freeware tool vice using 3DS max essentially make your game look second-hand either in actual looks or in the publisher's eyes?
A small group of us were planning to develop a simple game but haven't settled on a 3D modeling tool yet. We have the capital to buy any, this isn't the point. The point is, does paying 3k vice 49 dollars put you ahead in any way?
I feel slightly biased that in my eyes, YES, knowing that someone used an expensive 3D modeler does make me give them more credit. We currently have a modeler who uses LightWave 7 and a modeler who uses trueSpace 6.6 and i tend to view the LightWave guy as 'more advanced' even though they can produce the same quality of work. Is this true in anyone else's eyes? Are you taken more or less serious depending on what you choose?
While i was doing this comparison i was on NewTeks site(Lightwave) and looked at their 'competive price' section and thought it was interesting to note that they only listed Maya, 3D Studio Max, SoftImage, Cinema 4D and Mirai as being 'competition'. That kind of made me say, wow, so where does everything else fall? Where's trueSpace 6? Carrera? Pixel 3D? Strata 3D?
Any comments that can shed any light ontop anything mentioned would be appreciated. If anything, this list can help and new developer find a tool which works for their pricepoint. [Note: Only reason i mention trueSpace many times is because their gameSpace sister product looked rather interesting.]
PRICE URL SOFTWARE NAME
[unknown] http://www.izware.com/news/index.htm MIRAI / NENDO
(company restarting, looks rather neat)
[free] http://www.blender3d.com/ BENDER 3D
(source available, can't beat free, unless free is hard to use...)
[49] http://www.ac3d.org/pages/introduction AC3D
[109] http://nevercenter.com/index.php/Home/254 SILO 1.2
[299] http://www.hash.com/ Animation Master
[399] http://www.eitechnologygroup.com/ Universe 8, Amorphium 3
[399] http://www.eovia.com/carrara/product_intro_car3.jsp Carrara Studio 3
[399] http://www.pixels3d.com/ Pixel3D v5
[595] http://www.caligari.com/ TrueSpace 6.6
(gameSpace provides direct Torque integration)
[595] http://www.maxon.net/index_e.html Cinema 4D R8.5
[695] http://www.strata.com/products/ Strata 3D pro
[895] http://www.rhino3d.com/ Rhinoceros 3D
[1595] http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/index.php LightWave 8
[1995] http://www.softimage.com/home/ SoftImage XSI v4
[2000] http://www.alias.com/eng/index_flash.shtml Maya 6
[3495] http://www.discreet.com/ 3DS Max 6
[Edit: corrected some prices]
#2
www.swissquake.ch/chumbalum-soft/
which is about 25$ or 25 euros..
I have started to learn blender, yeah there are some quirks with it, but I suppose there are with any program.
I have tried 3dms and found there is a lot which can confuse someone new to it. You also have to remember if you get something which doesn't have a export to .dif (torque format) then you might as well not bother with it, unless you want to make an exporter :)
Oh and just me being fussy, but you can enclose your text into links [ u r l ] http://link.me [ / u r l ], incase you didn't know :)
05/08/2004 (2:32 am)
There is milkshape too!www.swissquake.ch/chumbalum-soft/
which is about 25$ or 25 euros..
I have started to learn blender, yeah there are some quirks with it, but I suppose there are with any program.
I have tried 3dms and found there is a lot which can confuse someone new to it. You also have to remember if you get something which doesn't have a export to .dif (torque format) then you might as well not bother with it, unless you want to make an exporter :)
Oh and just me being fussy, but you can enclose your text into links [ u r l ] http://link.me [ / u r l ], incase you didn't know :)
#3
I don't understand what you mean. I don't think there is a single application out there which natively supports and let's you create .dif's.
That's why there is an exporter for it.
On the other hand, you might have meant .dts?
05/08/2004 (2:59 am)
Quote:You also have to remember if you get something which doesn't have a export to .dif (torque format) then you might as well not bother with it, unless you want to make an exporter :)
I don't understand what you mean. I don't think there is a single application out there which natively supports and let's you create .dif's.
That's why there is an exporter for it.
On the other hand, you might have meant .dts?
#4
If you're making a game, the obvious answer would be to choose the application that is supported by the game engine. In the case of Torque here are your choices:
3DS Max
Maya
LightWave
GameSpace
Milkshape
Blender
Those are the only 3D applications that have exporters written for them (that I am aware of). At the moment, the Max exporter is the most feature-filled, primarily because it was the first application to have support. The Maya exporter is getting pretty close but is still in beta. I can't comment on the other programs, since I haven't used them, but people are using them to successfully create art assets for their projects.
I, personally, use both Max and Maya for my projects. Both of them have allowed me to do just about anything I need. As far as game development goes, these two are the industry standards (yes, other programs are being used, but these two are at the top of the food chain). Plus, there is an incredible amount of support, tutorials, and communities available on the web for these two programs.
In then end, which one you choose depends greatly on your budget and your team's experience. There is some bit of personal preference that comes into play, but really, it depends on the project.
05/08/2004 (9:15 am)
Quote:My questions to the forum would be, which would you choose when considering price/ease/performance/branding?
If you're making a game, the obvious answer would be to choose the application that is supported by the game engine. In the case of Torque here are your choices:
3DS Max
Maya
LightWave
GameSpace
Milkshape
Blender
Those are the only 3D applications that have exporters written for them (that I am aware of). At the moment, the Max exporter is the most feature-filled, primarily because it was the first application to have support. The Maya exporter is getting pretty close but is still in beta. I can't comment on the other programs, since I haven't used them, but people are using them to successfully create art assets for their projects.
I, personally, use both Max and Maya for my projects. Both of them have allowed me to do just about anything I need. As far as game development goes, these two are the industry standards (yes, other programs are being used, but these two are at the top of the food chain). Plus, there is an incredible amount of support, tutorials, and communities available on the web for these two programs.
In then end, which one you choose depends greatly on your budget and your team's experience. There is some bit of personal preference that comes into play, but really, it depends on the project.
#5
So I'm assuming this is true with the Maya exporter as well. ??
With this in mind is it easier to use QuArK to design levels and use one of the other modelers to design characters / weapons and such?
I am a 3d student interested in creating games. I intend to use the Torque engine to show off ALL of my art in real time.
I've worked in the industry for 2 years now and anyone/everyone will tell you first and foremost... STREAMLINE your production. So with several tools at my disposal through school what is the very best way to create a COMPLETE level using the Torque engine (hey It's in my price range : ) I want to design the level, characters, weapons, props... everything.
Also - I've never heard of Quark. what - where ?
thanks!
05/08/2004 (12:56 pm)
The following list outlines the functions for which DTS format is NOT designed. Quote:Buildings and other large objects. DIF format and programs such as QuArK are much better suited for this purpose, as the provide much more efficient culling of off-screen geometry. This is especially true of any structure large enough for the character to go inside.
Quote:Objects requiring complex or precise collision. DIF format and programs such as QuArK are also better suited to this task. Collision is one of the most complex functions a game engine performs, and DTS shapes are not optimized for complex collision. They have a simplified collision scheme that is effective in simulating collision on a small scale. It is not precise enough for extremely close interaction, such as that of a character walking on a much larger object.
So I'm assuming this is true with the Maya exporter as well. ??
With this in mind is it easier to use QuArK to design levels and use one of the other modelers to design characters / weapons and such?
I am a 3d student interested in creating games. I intend to use the Torque engine to show off ALL of my art in real time.
I've worked in the industry for 2 years now and anyone/everyone will tell you first and foremost... STREAMLINE your production. So with several tools at my disposal through school what is the very best way to create a COMPLETE level using the Torque engine (hey It's in my price range : ) I want to design the level, characters, weapons, props... everything.
Also - I've never heard of Quark. what - where ?
thanks!
#6
An exporter is just an exporter. It does the same thing as the other exporters but from a different income. The outcome gets the same. Ie; of course the Maya exporter has the same downsides, as far as the file format goes.
Yes, QuArK is mainly for interior design, buildings and small objects. DTS is good for anything else that is not an interior, basically.
Read the FAQ & search the forums, you'll find the rest yourself, I'm sure.
05/08/2004 (2:32 pm)
Jimmy:An exporter is just an exporter. It does the same thing as the other exporters but from a different income. The outcome gets the same. Ie; of course the Maya exporter has the same downsides, as far as the file format goes.
Yes, QuArK is mainly for interior design, buildings and small objects. DTS is good for anything else that is not an interior, basically.
Read the FAQ & search the forums, you'll find the rest yourself, I'm sure.
#7
as for artists, a talented artist can produce just as good work with anything . . . it just might take them longer using a 'low end' program because of the lack of features or tools to make it go quicker. basically there is no "right" answer it is pretty much based on a combonation of will it do what you want and artist preference.
05/08/2004 (3:51 pm)
Comparing programs is easy, there are some that are 'high end' or 'professinal grade' those are used in the television and movie industry extensively. and there are those that aren't those are the 'hobbist' level. Those are used for learning 3D modeling and animating prinicpals or for things that don't need the advanced capabilities of the 'professional grade' tools.as for artists, a talented artist can produce just as good work with anything . . . it just might take them longer using a 'low end' program because of the lack of features or tools to make it go quicker. basically there is no "right" answer it is pretty much based on a combonation of will it do what you want and artist preference.
#8
05/08/2004 (3:53 pm)
Quote:At the moment, the Max exporter is the most feature-filledActually it seems the most recent LW exporter has features that the Max one doesn't, and is DEFINATLY much easier to use!
#9
05/08/2004 (4:03 pm)
All, well that's cool. What is the current list of options in the LW exporter? I'm isolated in Max and Maya land, so I'm usually not aware of what's going on in other camps.
#10
At some point I would like to build a "DTS features supported" matrix for all available exporters, but I don't exactly have the time or the money to check all of the features for all of these applications. If those developing the exporters could inform me of their progress, though, it would be great.
05/10/2004 (10:43 am)
I am actually interested in this as well - having access to a working feature list and any existing documentation for the community exportere (such as the Lightwave one) would be nicee. I could include links to that information in the official Torque docs.At some point I would like to build a "DTS features supported" matrix for all available exporters, but I don't exactly have the time or the money to check all of the features for all of these applications. If those developing the exporters could inform me of their progress, though, it would be great.
#11
05/10/2004 (12:36 pm)
I think the latest Lightwave exporter supports almost everything that the 3DSMax does. I don't think there's an auto-LOD, but it has IFL, DSQ, and LOD for sure.
#12
05/10/2004 (2:18 pm)
I know that Lightwave Dave added "detail" textures to the LW exporter right after someone added them to the Milkshape exporter. It was said in the Max exporter did not support this feature.
#13
jimmy
05/10/2004 (8:05 pm)
Stefan - thanks for the info. Is it really that difficult to bring interiors and buildings into Torque from Max or Maya?jimmy
#14
You have to understand that the MAP/DIF/Interior format is based on collision (convex hull) and BSP optimizations, as compared to something like the DTS, which is not. IOW, a DTS building will suck up many more engine resources than the same building in DIF.
-Eric F
05/11/2004 (12:15 am)
Jimmy,You have to understand that the MAP/DIF/Interior format is based on collision (convex hull) and BSP optimizations, as compared to something like the DTS, which is not. IOW, a DTS building will suck up many more engine resources than the same building in DIF.
-Eric F
#16
I'm a programmer not a modeller, so I might be misunderstanding something here? :)
05/11/2004 (5:38 pm)
Many of these models can be saved and converted between formats, why not make a stand alone importer program to load such files and then export them to Torque? Or maybe someone is creating such a tool already?I'm a programmer not a modeller, so I might be misunderstanding something here? :)
#17
On the other hand, if you need a high poly model with lots of details, you can't get it with DIF's as their basic geometry requirements make it unviable, thus you have a DTS. With the DTS format you can have oodles of polys that will display well, but there is an extreme limitation to it's collision accuracy (as DTS requires a collision geomtry seperate from it's visible geometry) Not to mention that any sort of animation is near impossible with DIF's, but works great with DTS.
Recently some community memebers have been working with some new collision code for high poly model formats which might end up providing the ideal solution. (Though it just sounds too good to be true, but we can always hope)
05/11/2004 (7:07 pm)
The dts and dif file formats are not exchangable, as they are designed and used for different things. DIF's are designed to have excellent collision, it's part of their basic geometry, however most all 3d modeling programs that are meant to create characters and other highly detailed models do not produce the kind of geometries that make DIF's so efficient at collision.On the other hand, if you need a high poly model with lots of details, you can't get it with DIF's as their basic geometry requirements make it unviable, thus you have a DTS. With the DTS format you can have oodles of polys that will display well, but there is an extreme limitation to it's collision accuracy (as DTS requires a collision geomtry seperate from it's visible geometry) Not to mention that any sort of animation is near impossible with DIF's, but works great with DTS.
Recently some community memebers have been working with some new collision code for high poly model formats which might end up providing the ideal solution. (Though it just sounds too good to be true, but we can always hope)
#18
Since your using Torque which is limited to CSG type editors and BSP friendly geometry which leaves out 3d apps for creating environments, you really can use anything you like to make your actors. Max, maya and lightwave are good for vehicles, characters etc.
For a cheap modeler Wings3D is excellent, not sure if you can get stuff into torque though, if you want cheap tools for modeling then wings3d, mikshape, and ultimate unwrap for mapping are realy good tools. but then you will still need something for animation and there isn't anything thats cheap that I would recommend for that.
05/14/2004 (10:26 pm)
Normaly in my experience 3dsmax is best for building environments, structures interiors etc. when it comes to characters max or maya, allthough many animators prefer maya for character animation.Since your using Torque which is limited to CSG type editors and BSP friendly geometry which leaves out 3d apps for creating environments, you really can use anything you like to make your actors. Max, maya and lightwave are good for vehicles, characters etc.
For a cheap modeler Wings3D is excellent, not sure if you can get stuff into torque though, if you want cheap tools for modeling then wings3d, mikshape, and ultimate unwrap for mapping are realy good tools. but then you will still need something for animation and there isn't anything thats cheap that I would recommend for that.
#19
05/26/2004 (11:43 am)
Anybody have any links to learning QuArK or Milkshake? What about GMAX? Is this a tool that would create basic collision geometry that will export to a DIF format??
#20
05/26/2004 (11:51 am)
Problem with Gmax is that your not allowed to create anything with it without purchasing a dev licence. around the year 2000/01 I enquired about how much it woudl cost to get Gmax to use as both a dev tool and a modding tool. If I remember correctly it was several $1000's for multiple licences and the full SDK so you could release modding tools etc. Not to bad if you can afford it, but not really worth it as if you have that much money to spare, you may as well purchase the full Max instead and get a complete dev tool plus you can use it for multiple games. 
Torque Owner Thomas \"Man of Ice\" Lund
With that said, most 3d modeller tool vendors do not (until very recently) regard the game dev market as where they can earn themselves some bucks, but more movie + commercials + music videos etc. Thats why I think you wont see any of "free/cheap" modelling tools on their competitior lists, as these "minor" tools cant compete in that area.
Just my 2 cents