MS-Linux
by Frank Huang · in General Discussion · 04/29/2004 (9:39 am) · 21 replies
Does anyone here think that Microsoft is planning to make their own version of Linux? I read an article about this on PC mag, predicting that this would happen. I doubt that within the next few years, but what if they do? Instead of the general public seeing what non-Microsoft people have to offer, we would all be using MS Office Linux Edition. What do you think?
#2
they tried to grab the open source and lock it up.
charge a fortune for it
they found they could not make money selling free software.
they have not given up they are still looking for ways.
personally I would not give such a beast the correct time of day.
M$ has a way of wrecking anything good.
04/29/2004 (9:58 am)
Yea they did a couple times.they tried to grab the open source and lock it up.
charge a fortune for it
they found they could not make money selling free software.
they have not given up they are still looking for ways.
personally I would not give such a beast the correct time of day.
M$ has a way of wrecking anything good.
#3
However Microsoft is the world champion of monopoly tactics. They are incredibly effective in cornering business. At this point the only technology which can threaten them is free technology.
However, imagine if Microsoft could release a Linux distribution which became more popular than all the rest. Now imagine the influence which Microsoft would then have over the free software community. Now imagine that MS Linux began to depend on proprietary MS technology to be more feature rich than other Linux distros. At that point proprietary MS technology begins to sink roots into the territory of the open source world. Who's to say they wouldn't try it?
At any rate it's going to take more than 7 Eleven (who hardly constitute the Albert Einstein of the global IT industry) to convince business not to consider a capable, cheap alternative to Windows.
04/29/2004 (10:04 am)
I hear you. I know Bill Gates has conceded that freeBSD may have a place but he likes to call GPL software and Linux "Communist". Unfortunately for Microsoft the McCarthy era ended few decades ago and the government is not likely to lock up Linus Torvalds just because somebody tried to paint him with the "C" word.However Microsoft is the world champion of monopoly tactics. They are incredibly effective in cornering business. At this point the only technology which can threaten them is free technology.
However, imagine if Microsoft could release a Linux distribution which became more popular than all the rest. Now imagine the influence which Microsoft would then have over the free software community. Now imagine that MS Linux began to depend on proprietary MS technology to be more feature rich than other Linux distros. At that point proprietary MS technology begins to sink roots into the territory of the open source world. Who's to say they wouldn't try it?
At any rate it's going to take more than 7 Eleven (who hardly constitute the Albert Einstein of the global IT industry) to convince business not to consider a capable, cheap alternative to Windows.
#4
04/29/2004 (10:07 am)
@Trent: Well, if they go that direction they are -sure- to get slammed. One of the major root arguments in the lawsuits against them is that they used "undocumented" win API features to have their apps work better than their competitors. Even if they do go this route, I can't see them putting their foot into something they already know stinks badly.
#5
I'm not fond of a lot of Microsoft's business tactics, but seriously, take a step back and remove the tinfoil hats, especially you Badguy. Do you have any sources to cite about Microsoft trying to 'steal' or 'lock up' Linux?
Microsoft aren't interested in using Linux as a desktop OS, why would they be? They already have an OS that 95% of the consumer world has bought into, and Linux isn't making any significant gains into this space despite all of the technical progress GNOME, KDE, etc have made.
Microsoft is pouring billions of dollars into Longhorn and has been working on it for years now, you really think they are going to abandon that and switch over to Linux? Especially when Microsoft's new technologies in Longhorn are so advanced that they are scaring many well-known Linux developers, who feel they are getting further and further behind the curve in relation to Microsoft?
(Reference: news.netcraft.com/archives/2004/04/28/interview_with_miguel_de_icaza_cofounder_o... )
Take a look at the last paragraph in particular.
In short, Microsoft has absolutely nothing to gain by adopting their own Linux OS. So why would they do it?
It just doesn't make *any sense* at all.
04/29/2004 (12:17 pm)
Are you people on drugs?I'm not fond of a lot of Microsoft's business tactics, but seriously, take a step back and remove the tinfoil hats, especially you Badguy. Do you have any sources to cite about Microsoft trying to 'steal' or 'lock up' Linux?
Microsoft aren't interested in using Linux as a desktop OS, why would they be? They already have an OS that 95% of the consumer world has bought into, and Linux isn't making any significant gains into this space despite all of the technical progress GNOME, KDE, etc have made.
Microsoft is pouring billions of dollars into Longhorn and has been working on it for years now, you really think they are going to abandon that and switch over to Linux? Especially when Microsoft's new technologies in Longhorn are so advanced that they are scaring many well-known Linux developers, who feel they are getting further and further behind the curve in relation to Microsoft?
(Reference: news.netcraft.com/archives/2004/04/28/interview_with_miguel_de_icaza_cofounder_o... )
Take a look at the last paragraph in particular.
In short, Microsoft has absolutely nothing to gain by adopting their own Linux OS. So why would they do it?
It just doesn't make *any sense* at all.
#6
some people come in throw stuff around without even doing any checking on thier own..
like this George guy here.
Ok georgie.. you wanna start playing derogitory we can do this.
#1 Microsoft is feeling Threatened by Linux and if you havent noticed that..
maybe you should remove your blinders.
#2 Microsoft will be reacting to this threat.
#3 Microsoft Drove RBC and Other investors to SCO's headquarters and raised all the funding needed to drive the lawsuits..
I cannot imagine why???
#4 Microsoft HAS built thier own version of Linux
and tried to sell it and Lock up thier resources they put into it.
if you cannot find anything about it .. then you should maybe revamp your search tool's.
Im sick of capitolists like you with lead blinders on coming in and telling a guy he is wearing a tinhat cause he dont agree with M$ business practice.
Microsoft Will assimulate Anything that can make them money.
and as well Anything that takes a share of thier profit.
Noone said Anything about "Abandoning" thier current design's.
Merely Forcing the market into thier hands.
doing this by as the gentleman before had suggested by Cracking into an open source market and locking what part of it down they can.
04/29/2004 (12:34 pm)
Roflsome people come in throw stuff around without even doing any checking on thier own..
like this George guy here.
Ok georgie.. you wanna start playing derogitory we can do this.
#1 Microsoft is feeling Threatened by Linux and if you havent noticed that..
maybe you should remove your blinders.
#2 Microsoft will be reacting to this threat.
#3 Microsoft Drove RBC and Other investors to SCO's headquarters and raised all the funding needed to drive the lawsuits..
I cannot imagine why???
#4 Microsoft HAS built thier own version of Linux
and tried to sell it and Lock up thier resources they put into it.
if you cannot find anything about it .. then you should maybe revamp your search tool's.
Im sick of capitolists like you with lead blinders on coming in and telling a guy he is wearing a tinhat cause he dont agree with M$ business practice.
Microsoft Will assimulate Anything that can make them money.
and as well Anything that takes a share of thier profit.
Noone said Anything about "Abandoning" thier current design's.
Merely Forcing the market into thier hands.
doing this by as the gentleman before had suggested by Cracking into an open source market and locking what part of it down they can.
#7
04/29/2004 (12:58 pm)
Well, with all that" aahhhh .... Longhorn" crap thats floating around, I'm switching. (sorta). Longhorn aspires to be the downfall of many small development groups, and simply removes as much end-user control over thier computer as it can. For me, I'll continue running Xp on my notebook, 2000 on my dev rig, and Gentoo on both my other systems. (I would ditch XP, but I love Far Cry. Theres my 27 cents.
#8
I'm no Microsoft apologist, but feel free to paint me that way if it makes you feel better.
Honestly, though, I don't think the sort of speculation and half-baked ideas that have been posted to this thread thus far really help your cause. There are plenty of real issues to get on Microsoft's case about, but when you go overboard and attack them on any small issue and even make some up to attack them on, you just start losing credibility and look like a crank.
04/29/2004 (1:28 pm)
I'm sure Microsoft is just dying to be "Cracking into an open source market and locking what part of it down they can". Especially since the closed source market they dominate is so unprofitable, and Open Source is such a huge money-maker...I'm no Microsoft apologist, but feel free to paint me that way if it makes you feel better.
Honestly, though, I don't think the sort of speculation and half-baked ideas that have been posted to this thread thus far really help your cause. There are plenty of real issues to get on Microsoft's case about, but when you go overboard and attack them on any small issue and even make some up to attack them on, you just start losing credibility and look like a crank.
#9
-- RANT
From the perspective of someone who have looked at most parts of the .NET platform I must say I'm starting to wonder how on earth the opensource and alternative OS community will ever succeed to reverse engineer this MASSIVE beast. It was nice of microsoft to get parts of the platform standardized (was it ISO? Can't even remember). It's quite obvious they feel the success of the .NET platform and pleasing courts far outweighs the perceived threat from Linux. If you do not know what the .NET platform is and I mean really is you have no clue what Microsoft is trying to do. The size of it alone will bury the alternative community in work. Microsoft is pouring money into this like there is no end. I do not doubt that they will catch up. The question is how long will it take and how long is the majority of users ready to wait? I look at this as Microsoft trying to kill off the community by sheer ammount of work.
It's a fact that all companies sees their competitors as threats. Personally I've used Linux for many years on servers so I have a lot of experience with it. This includes more user-friendly distributions. I've never had a 100% smooth installation with any Linux distro except SuSE. When installing windows I rarely run into anything but when I do it's usually 3rd party driver issues. I'd say Microsoft is the king of user-friendlyness. I don't know if the steal concepts and code or not but if they do they seem to be stealing the right tech.
-- QUESTIONS
Since I rarely move in open source or alternative OS cicuits and rarely develop anything GUI *NIX I'd like to ask the people who do a few questions:
If you're an open source evangelist, what is your take on the .NET platform? Do you expect to use MONO when Longhorn is established?
If you're an alternative OS evengelist, how do you think .NET will change your development?
What's the buzz in the open source world as far as .NET goes?
Any additional useful articles by or with open source evangelists like the one linked by George?
Personally I'm a tad afraid of the massive .NET giant as I've seen the development cycle and I'm horribly used to just going assembler when things need optimising, writing my dialogs and interface in WIN32API with occasional help from the excellent dialog designer in VC++. I find designing application interfaces in XML to be horrible. I do not want to feel like I'm designing webpages. I've seen the steady increase in higher level programmers, higher level programming tasks and shorter development cycles. Are my people falling out of grace?
-- REPLIES
Badguy,
Writing M$ instead of MS is a great way not to be taken serious. Of course Microsoft will assimilate anything which increases their profit. That's their goal. They're a company. They make money.
George,
Thanks for the link. Was an interesting read.
Yeah... And I write too much....
04/29/2004 (1:52 pm)
I'll just add my opinion and quickly leave. Threads like these are infected and evil but there's something I've wanted to discuss which relates to the topic. Let me just first say I'm very anti-opensource, anti-free, as in money, software. The reason I feel this way is because the people who release these free of charge libraries and so on get very little for their effort from companies making so much from it. Generally I think it's a naive attitude. No need to even comment on the last part. Just making my stance clear so that my post can be discarded by those who disslike my type ;) If so please skip to the section marked QUESTIONS.-- RANT
From the perspective of someone who have looked at most parts of the .NET platform I must say I'm starting to wonder how on earth the opensource and alternative OS community will ever succeed to reverse engineer this MASSIVE beast. It was nice of microsoft to get parts of the platform standardized (was it ISO? Can't even remember). It's quite obvious they feel the success of the .NET platform and pleasing courts far outweighs the perceived threat from Linux. If you do not know what the .NET platform is and I mean really is you have no clue what Microsoft is trying to do. The size of it alone will bury the alternative community in work. Microsoft is pouring money into this like there is no end. I do not doubt that they will catch up. The question is how long will it take and how long is the majority of users ready to wait? I look at this as Microsoft trying to kill off the community by sheer ammount of work.
It's a fact that all companies sees their competitors as threats. Personally I've used Linux for many years on servers so I have a lot of experience with it. This includes more user-friendly distributions. I've never had a 100% smooth installation with any Linux distro except SuSE. When installing windows I rarely run into anything but when I do it's usually 3rd party driver issues. I'd say Microsoft is the king of user-friendlyness. I don't know if the steal concepts and code or not but if they do they seem to be stealing the right tech.
-- QUESTIONS
Since I rarely move in open source or alternative OS cicuits and rarely develop anything GUI *NIX I'd like to ask the people who do a few questions:
If you're an open source evangelist, what is your take on the .NET platform? Do you expect to use MONO when Longhorn is established?
If you're an alternative OS evengelist, how do you think .NET will change your development?
What's the buzz in the open source world as far as .NET goes?
Any additional useful articles by or with open source evangelists like the one linked by George?
Personally I'm a tad afraid of the massive .NET giant as I've seen the development cycle and I'm horribly used to just going assembler when things need optimising, writing my dialogs and interface in WIN32API with occasional help from the excellent dialog designer in VC++. I find designing application interfaces in XML to be horrible. I do not want to feel like I'm designing webpages. I've seen the steady increase in higher level programmers, higher level programming tasks and shorter development cycles. Are my people falling out of grace?
-- REPLIES
Badguy,
Writing M$ instead of MS is a great way not to be taken serious. Of course Microsoft will assimilate anything which increases their profit. That's their goal. They're a company. They make money.
George,
Thanks for the link. Was an interesting read.
Yeah... And I write too much....
#10
Click Here
And, come on... Open source is evil? Who are you - Bush? - Imaginary quote, " We must persue this war on the EVIL opensource community, before the destroy us all." end imaginary quote.
Opensource is the only reason that I can be an indie. From GIMP to Blender to Linux, and Open Office. I'm not wishing the downfall of MS, but I think that people need to realize that just because MS is huge, doesn't make it right. My phone is ringing, I'll finish my rant in a bit.
@ Peter:
People like, Melv May, eXdos , John Vanderbeck, And Britton LaRoche to name a few.
All these people deserve credit by your own words. Make sure they get it.
04/29/2004 (1:54 pm)
Ok. Fine. Accuse all you want. But, look at this. MS And Linux Well? The fact of the matter is that Microsoft has developed on Linux, hell, it even ran its website off a linux server for a short period. Click Here
And, come on... Open source is evil? Who are you - Bush? - Imaginary quote, " We must persue this war on the EVIL opensource community, before the destroy us all." end imaginary quote.
Opensource is the only reason that I can be an indie. From GIMP to Blender to Linux, and Open Office. I'm not wishing the downfall of MS, but I think that people need to realize that just because MS is huge, doesn't make it right. My phone is ringing, I'll finish my rant in a bit.
@ Peter:
Quote:Let me just first say I'm very anti-opensource, anti-free, as in money, software. The reason I feel this way is because the people who release these free of charge libraries and so on get very little for their effort from companies making so much from it.And yet you use Torque? Do you plan on giving proper credit and pay to the people who have put so much of thier souls into Torque?
People like, Melv May, eXdos , John Vanderbeck, And Britton LaRoche to name a few.
All these people deserve credit by your own words. Make sure they get it.
#11
wont hurt my feeling's at all :)
M$ is how it is.
OpenSource doesnt make alot of money.
But it does take money away from those that are offering like services and products.
So.. for example in the server market if people use linux M$ wont make the cash off that.
That is a problem for them and they will work hard to rectify that.
Im still trying to see what exactly is half baked?
my List is all facts guy.
im not about to go dig up the links For you .. but you should be capable enuff to find them if not and you are interested ask again I can dig up a couple of the specific links.
I'm not on anyone's case.
merely spitting the facts.
If you would note my first post merely states that I would not use a Linux product from M$ as well as mentioning about One of their linux adventures.
My second post was a response to you calling me a "tinhat"
George your logic is twisted and convoluted.
too state your feelings about them making no money in thier own market and wanting to expand to a no-money market to make money.
dont even sound good with the sarcasm.
Because you dont seem to understand the implications of taking over the open source solution.
you dont seem to understand Why they want to do what they want to do.
and prolly because of that you dont see it either.
either way that is fine.
you called me a tinhat cause of my first post.
well...
I think your a cocksmoker cause of your last post :)
,.|..
04/29/2004 (2:12 pm)
Rofl take me serious or not.wont hurt my feeling's at all :)
M$ is how it is.
OpenSource doesnt make alot of money.
But it does take money away from those that are offering like services and products.
So.. for example in the server market if people use linux M$ wont make the cash off that.
That is a problem for them and they will work hard to rectify that.
Im still trying to see what exactly is half baked?
my List is all facts guy.
im not about to go dig up the links For you .. but you should be capable enuff to find them if not and you are interested ask again I can dig up a couple of the specific links.
I'm not on anyone's case.
merely spitting the facts.
If you would note my first post merely states that I would not use a Linux product from M$ as well as mentioning about One of their linux adventures.
My second post was a response to you calling me a "tinhat"
George your logic is twisted and convoluted.
too state your feelings about them making no money in thier own market and wanting to expand to a no-money market to make money.
dont even sound good with the sarcasm.
Because you dont seem to understand the implications of taking over the open source solution.
you dont seem to understand Why they want to do what they want to do.
and prolly because of that you dont see it either.
either way that is fine.
you called me a tinhat cause of my first post.
well...
I think your a cocksmoker cause of your last post :)
,.|..
#12
04/29/2004 (2:15 pm)
Microsoft lobbied to make OpenSource illegal. Talk about prohibition on a software level.
#13
Ok, first, Frank - this post was a flamebait and I wish we could "mod" this type of crap down.
Now, for every 95 happy microsoft users, there are 5 Linux users running around computing just fine without clippy or a wizard to tell you that you have unused tray icons and that you really need a wizard to help you with that. I tend to notice most of the people who defend microsoft no matter what are the people who make a living working with it.
Some of the Linux users make a living doing Linux type stuff - like me. It pays the bills and feeds my family. So telling us to take our tin foil hats off just because we don't use or agree with what you use is just plain silly. You're not going to change our minds just like we're not going to change yours, so really.. what's the point?
For those who "gave linux a try and had install problems" well - all linux newbies have problems. I don't care if you've been in the industry for 20 years and have every certification on the planet - Linux is different and take time to learn. You start at ground 0 like everyone else. So if you are a hard core windows user and loaded up Linux just to prove that it's crap, then of course it's crap and you should stick with windows.
So Linux will never be like windows because.. well it's not windows. Just like mac will never be like windows.
Opensource works for me and about 18 million other people on the planet, it's not a new concept at all and it's how unix got it's start. Linux has been around for over 10 years and it's not going anywhere and more companies are trying it out/converting over to it.
If you're looking for proof that microsoft is a "bad evil thing" then spend a couple of days reading all the articles that slashdot has to offer. And even if you don't believe any of that, you have to accept that fact that microsoft has been ruled in violation of anti-trust laws not only in the US but also by the European Commission.
04/30/2004 (3:11 am)
Jesh, the more I tried to ignore this post, the more I had to post.Ok, first, Frank - this post was a flamebait and I wish we could "mod" this type of crap down.
Now, for every 95 happy microsoft users, there are 5 Linux users running around computing just fine without clippy or a wizard to tell you that you have unused tray icons and that you really need a wizard to help you with that. I tend to notice most of the people who defend microsoft no matter what are the people who make a living working with it.
Some of the Linux users make a living doing Linux type stuff - like me. It pays the bills and feeds my family. So telling us to take our tin foil hats off just because we don't use or agree with what you use is just plain silly. You're not going to change our minds just like we're not going to change yours, so really.. what's the point?
For those who "gave linux a try and had install problems" well - all linux newbies have problems. I don't care if you've been in the industry for 20 years and have every certification on the planet - Linux is different and take time to learn. You start at ground 0 like everyone else. So if you are a hard core windows user and loaded up Linux just to prove that it's crap, then of course it's crap and you should stick with windows.
So Linux will never be like windows because.. well it's not windows. Just like mac will never be like windows.
Opensource works for me and about 18 million other people on the planet, it's not a new concept at all and it's how unix got it's start. Linux has been around for over 10 years and it's not going anywhere and more companies are trying it out/converting over to it.
If you're looking for proof that microsoft is a "bad evil thing" then spend a couple of days reading all the articles that slashdot has to offer. And even if you don't believe any of that, you have to accept that fact that microsoft has been ruled in violation of anti-trust laws not only in the US but also by the European Commission.
#14
And all the comments on MS developing software on Linux are unfounded and they are just BS you can find on the net, there's lots of it. MS did a IE port to 'UNIX' some time ago, and they also licensed some windows code to a company that was doing porting software, but that's about it. It's their business NOT to provide their best apps to the competition OS, else they lose the only reason to use Windows.
04/30/2004 (9:40 am)
@CLUTCH: If you read closely, Microsoft never ran Linux, it's their webhost company which provides their firewalls who runs Linux, so resolving microsoft.com points you to the firewalls (ofcourse) but microsoft's sites run on Win2k3.And all the comments on MS developing software on Linux are unfounded and they are just BS you can find on the net, there's lots of it. MS did a IE port to 'UNIX' some time ago, and they also licensed some windows code to a company that was doing porting software, but that's about it. It's their business NOT to provide their best apps to the competition OS, else they lose the only reason to use Windows.
#15
The problem, tho, with Longhorn is that I'll write software and someone will be able to exploit some part of the OS to make my software not run. As a developer, THAT SCARES ME THE MOST! All some company has to do is determine that my software is malevolent and BAM -- my software is no longer welcomed in that environment. Is that what you want as a developer?
It might be a good practice for companies, but it sucks ass for home users. If Big Software Game Giant Inc. feels threatened by an independent development house, all they'd have to do is make your computer believe that anything you write isn't "good" for their environment and you're out a sale. Tell me that's what you want! Give me a good reason why I should buy into crap like that! Tell me!
- Brett
04/30/2004 (10:04 am)
@Peter: The biggest problem with .NET is that it's such a kludge. Too many companies are investing in a platform that Microsoft themself have feared would fail. .NET isn't the godsend that people first thought it would be... I mean, develop in any language and run it anywhere!? Sound familiar? Java tried to do the same thing, and it's not faring so well. Longhorn is Microsoft's attempt to lock my computer down so I cannot do anything without their permission, or the government's, or someone else's. That's the biggest problem with M$! (I'm with ya Badguy)The problem, tho, with Longhorn is that I'll write software and someone will be able to exploit some part of the OS to make my software not run. As a developer, THAT SCARES ME THE MOST! All some company has to do is determine that my software is malevolent and BAM -- my software is no longer welcomed in that environment. Is that what you want as a developer?
It might be a good practice for companies, but it sucks ass for home users. If Big Software Game Giant Inc. feels threatened by an independent development house, all they'd have to do is make your computer believe that anything you write isn't "good" for their environment and you're out a sale. Tell me that's what you want! Give me a good reason why I should buy into crap like that! Tell me!
- Brett
#16
04/30/2004 (5:13 pm)
That's an excellent point Brett....
#17
04/30/2004 (6:23 pm)
My main platform is windows, but i do use Red Hat linux. I can see this reversing in the future. Using linux as a main platform, and an extremely modded windows version (so its actually usable how i want)for people who want cross platform support.
#18
04/30/2004 (6:30 pm)
No matter the truth, this site is funny as hell... not real, but funny... MSLINUX.ORG
#19
04/30/2004 (6:49 pm)
Brett I guess you havent notice that Java OWNES the server side development market by a WIDE margin.
#20
04/30/2004 (6:53 pm)
Anyone seen an show called GeneShaft? it is on TechTV right now. The main fighting ship has software problems and crashes more than Windows 3.11! I was thinking the other night watching it, that MS must have written the software! But then I realized they have the source code for it because the constantly "debug" and reload the software during battles! I guess Gates software principles are alive and well in the 31st century! 
Associate Tim Newell
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