Have we mastered the art of 2D animation?
by Travis Bolek · in Artist Corner · 02/19/2001 (12:11 pm) · 14 replies
I really don't think we have mastered this fine art skill called "2D". Look at what games such as street fighter III, and guilty gear X has brought. Smooth, and hi res animation. there are still numerous ways to express games in 2D. people are just so anxious to get to the next best thing before mastering the previous standard. fighting games and rpgs have quite a bit of room to grow in the 2d world. such rpgs as breath of fire IV and persona 2 take advantage of 2D animation, but it certainly could be improved. when will we see animation similar to Akira and ghost in the shell on video games without seeing them in cinematics?
and what is up with not improving the 2D graphics on older games? such as gradius III and IV for the ps2. the graphics could've gotten a huge boast in detail adn quality. and one could only hope that ffIV and chrono trigger will get some sort of face lift. let's face it, this industry is based on pretty looks, one that hollywood envys.
and what is up with not improving the 2D graphics on older games? such as gradius III and IV for the ps2. the graphics could've gotten a huge boast in detail adn quality. and one could only hope that ffIV and chrono trigger will get some sort of face lift. let's face it, this industry is based on pretty looks, one that hollywood envys.
#2
Anybody have any suggestions for a medium strength graphics program?
Enough on the graphics editor though. I think 2D games' days are numbered. You guys should get on the 3D bandwagon. Even games that look 2D, need to be 3D at heart to take advantage of the extra processor power in the GPU that all computers have. 3D gives a designer so many more tools to work with, that it is a must to be competitive.
Jeff Tunnell GG
03/08/2001 (11:21 am)
Alright!!! A DPaint user. I hate Photoshop. Not being a full time artist, but a producer on a tight schedule, I simply cannot find my way around PS. All I want to do are simple screens to show my ideas to the people that implement them, and I can't do it anymore. All graphics products are either huge, clumsy, and overbearing (Photoshop, Corel, Paintshop, Fireworks, GIMP)or too flimsy (MS Paint). I don't even have a copy of DPaint anymore, but I long for it's simple brush manipulation and easy UI.Anybody have any suggestions for a medium strength graphics program?
Enough on the graphics editor though. I think 2D games' days are numbered. You guys should get on the 3D bandwagon. Even games that look 2D, need to be 3D at heart to take advantage of the extra processor power in the GPU that all computers have. 3D gives a designer so many more tools to work with, that it is a must to be competitive.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#3
same features and keyboard shortcuts are there. Its nice, but there are problems. Each time you
save an image, UP takes only those colors used in the image and makes the image palette. this is
bad when you're used to having controll over all the colors in your palette and what thier index
numbers are. You might like it.
Without turning this into a debate, I'll say that even though I work in 3d for game dev. and leasure,
I will always love to make and play 2-d games. I would love to see the industry keep moving and to
be a part of that. onward! upward!
Dpaint forever
03/08/2001 (11:45 am)
Ultimate Paint is the closest ive seen to a 32 bit graphics app. that comes close to Dpaint. Alot of thesame features and keyboard shortcuts are there. Its nice, but there are problems. Each time you
save an image, UP takes only those colors used in the image and makes the image palette. this is
bad when you're used to having controll over all the colors in your palette and what thier index
numbers are. You might like it.
Without turning this into a debate, I'll say that even though I work in 3d for game dev. and leasure,
I will always love to make and play 2-d games. I would love to see the industry keep moving and to
be a part of that. onward! upward!
Dpaint forever
#4
If you're going to use 3D stuff to make a 2D game, make the 3D an addon type thing, with most effort spent on the 2D.
Using the power of a gpu is fine... If the user has one. I myself refuse to buy games that won't run on my computer (Except Creatures 3, I got a soft spot for Norns ;). As far as I'm concerned, if your game can't run on a PII-266 with 32M RAM, S3-Virge 4M and a 56k modem then your game (although probably looking quite spectacular) will not interest me.
Does anyone else feel this way, or am I all alone? (I need to know, cause if I'm all alone I'll have to buy a new computer - mine still has it's original 286 case).
03/08/2001 (2:44 pm)
Design a good 2D game, and I'll be your faithful buyer for life...If you're going to use 3D stuff to make a 2D game, make the 3D an addon type thing, with most effort spent on the 2D.
Using the power of a gpu is fine... If the user has one. I myself refuse to buy games that won't run on my computer (Except Creatures 3, I got a soft spot for Norns ;). As far as I'm concerned, if your game can't run on a PII-266 with 32M RAM, S3-Virge 4M and a 56k modem then your game (although probably looking quite spectacular) will not interest me.
Does anyone else feel this way, or am I all alone? (I need to know, cause if I'm all alone I'll have to buy a new computer - mine still has it's original 286 case).
#5
<<>>
To be fair, some of my favorite creations would still run on your machine, but I'm making newer and better versions for newer and better hardware.
If you really want to do 2D games, you should look into Palm and Pocket PC's. They still have minimal CPU's and no graphics acceleration. But, my guess is, even they will eventually have accelerated 3D support.
Jeff Tunnell GG
03/08/2001 (4:34 pm)
Andrew, I don't want to sound too harsh, but you are getting left behind. I'm sure when color televisions came out there were the naysayers saying, "by god, I don't need that new fangled crap!" Or when cars began using V-8's, I'm sure there were people that thought the old four cylinder would be all they would ever need.<<
To be fair, some of my favorite creations would still run on your machine, but I'm making newer and better versions for newer and better hardware.
If you really want to do 2D games, you should look into Palm and Pocket PC's. They still have minimal CPU's and no graphics acceleration. But, my guess is, even they will eventually have accelerated 3D support.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#6
I hadn't thought of the PDA stuff, looking into that now. Not going to touch the Oracle dbase stuff, it's just darn boring.
Thanks for the advice :)
03/09/2001 (8:27 pm)
Unfortunately that is all too true. I have been aware that I have to keep up with what everyone else is doing, regardless of what I want. I will admit that playing round with D3D is fun :)I hadn't thought of the PDA stuff, looking into that now. Not going to touch the Oracle dbase stuff, it's just darn boring.
Thanks for the advice :)
#7
03/31/2001 (8:45 pm)
I am all for 3D games, its just that i believe that the industry tends to jump the gun on technology...look at all the false starts on modem play for consoles (dating back all the way to Atari 2600 days!) well, thank god for the Game Boy Advance! Hooray a true SNES portable! Now if Nintendo allows Square to make a portable Chrono Trigger...I think i might piss myself or something along that line.
#8
If you want I have DP and DP Anim :)) hohoho!
BTW: I wish cards still supported Vesa VBE :))
Phil.
04/01/2001 (6:55 am)
Jeff, we got a program called ProMotion, which is very very close to DPaint, also a program called Aura is pretty similar as well.If you want I have DP and DP Anim :)) hohoho!
BTW: I wish cards still supported Vesa VBE :))
Phil.
#9
05/01/2001 (11:22 am)
Andrew i sense in your statement that your happy with what you have and aint gonna go daft spending 1500$ buying a new comp to play a few of the latest games and not having the hardware dont know just how much difference 3d makes, but you are missing out mate and it doesnt need to be so expensive get a half decnt graffix card the tnt 2 series is peanuts these days to buy and still powerfull well in comparason anyway also update you ram to mabe 96 meg, you will breath new life into that old 266, i know i did it for my 14 yr old son he is currently working his way through my copy of Deus ex with a decent frame rate at 800*600 res and thats a hardware hungary game if ever there was, all on a 233 pentium 2.
#10
05/18/2001 (10:45 pm)
The only advantage 2D has over 3D is it forces innovation and clever design - but if the same effort where put into 3D it really goes to another level - DOA2 hurls over its Street Fighter - there's no comparison between the experiances (but hold on...I just compared 'em).
#11
For those of you who, like I, remember its Win311 days when it was just a tad better than MSPaint... you're in for a surprise. It's like going from Win311 to Win95... only easier. ;)
Eric
05/18/2001 (11:33 pm)
I just think that Paintshop Pro 7.1 is the greatest thing to come along since microwaveable popcorn. For those of you who, like I, remember its Win311 days when it was just a tad better than MSPaint... you're in for a surprise. It's like going from Win311 to Win95... only easier. ;)
Eric
#12
But maybe I'm reading to much into the word "independant" as in independant game development...It's the film buff in me, I guess..."independant films" arn't on the whole trying to reproduce "mainstream" entertainment with limited resources (that would be a better description for B-movies)...instead they focus on subjects and styles those "mainstream" films have given up on or don't care to tackle...Classicly "independant films" are not souly made to make money...but rather made for artistic expression (the use of B&W photography, "art house" sense of style, "untouchable" subject matter)...So in my book "independant game developers" are generaly trying to produce B-movie type games :P...maybe a re-labeling is in order...
05/20/2001 (1:00 pm)
No...I don't think we have even come close to fully tapping out 2D graphics and animation...and it is totally disrespectfull and ignorant to FULLY believe that 3D is the ONLY way to do things now and for the future...But maybe I'm reading to much into the word "independant" as in independant game development...It's the film buff in me, I guess..."independant films" arn't on the whole trying to reproduce "mainstream" entertainment with limited resources (that would be a better description for B-movies)...instead they focus on subjects and styles those "mainstream" films have given up on or don't care to tackle...Classicly "independant films" are not souly made to make money...but rather made for artistic expression (the use of B&W photography, "art house" sense of style, "untouchable" subject matter)...So in my book "independant game developers" are generaly trying to produce B-movie type games :P...maybe a re-labeling is in order...
#13
I agree - but I also think that the 3rd dimension automatically gives more options (as well as over complicate for smaller developers).
And having worked in indipendant film I can tell you it does not 'necessarily' mean what you say - look at something like Troma (eeuuurgh - well except for Cannibal the Musical).
Its could also be seen as being fairly disrespectfull and ignorant to call someone disrespectfull and ignorant based on comments made on a forum (which now makes me disrespectfull and ignorant - aaaarrrgh I hate forums...but...cant ...keep ...a...way!!!!)
05/21/2001 (5:48 am)
>>No...I don't think we have even come close to fully tapping out 2D graphics and animation...and it is totally disrespectfull and ignorant to FULLY believe that 3D is the ONLY way to do things now and for the future... <<I agree - but I also think that the 3rd dimension automatically gives more options (as well as over complicate for smaller developers).
And having worked in indipendant film I can tell you it does not 'necessarily' mean what you say - look at something like Troma (eeuuurgh - well except for Cannibal the Musical).
Its could also be seen as being fairly disrespectfull and ignorant to call someone disrespectfull and ignorant based on comments made on a forum (which now makes me disrespectfull and ignorant - aaaarrrgh I hate forums...but...cant ...keep ...a...way!!!!)
#14
I do agree that not all independant films are trying to achieve some level of "artistic merit"...I too worked in that "industry" for a time...You mentioned Troma...Ouch!...I knew (and worked for) some of the folks who made "Teenage Catgirls in Heat" that got picked up by Troma!...Er...the less said the better:P
My "beef" with 3D is that it has become so hardware and technology dependant (texturemapped polygons...what about voxels? or some of the other ways to visualize a 3D world?)...that games are starting to look the same to me...It also seems that many are trying for some level of photo-realisam...ack! how dull and boring!...It's as if the Jerry Bruckhiemers of the game industry have taken over!
05/21/2001 (8:38 am)
I apologise for my posts from yesterday...had a bad day :PI do agree that not all independant films are trying to achieve some level of "artistic merit"...I too worked in that "industry" for a time...You mentioned Troma...Ouch!...I knew (and worked for) some of the folks who made "Teenage Catgirls in Heat" that got picked up by Troma!...Er...the less said the better:P
My "beef" with 3D is that it has become so hardware and technology dependant (texturemapped polygons...what about voxels? or some of the other ways to visualize a 3D world?)...that games are starting to look the same to me...It also seems that many are trying for some level of photo-realisam...ack! how dull and boring!...It's as if the Jerry Bruckhiemers of the game industry have taken over!
Maurice Wingfield
everyday. The art of animation has room to grow, and we as 2-d artists have alot to learn. I have
another Question. I still use Deluxe Paint 2e, am I alone? If now, could somebody tell me why no
other product has come close to its verisility in creating 2d graphics?
noslugg