Our freedom is being taken.

#41 I guess you are correct Eric. This issue got me fired up and I had trouble focusing. I apologize if I offended anyone. I would like to continue with game speak as well.


Coz

#42 We all get caught up once in awhile. Just ask Randall. We had a pretty heated discussion here a few months ago. ;-)

So, in all this FCC-hate, what do you think about games called Ethnic Cleansing, Aryan Power, and WPDoom*? Is that not free speech? It's not physically hurting anyone. It's not the game makers responsibility once it's left the shelf, right?

(*WP= White Power)

-Eric F

#43 Eric has a good point, politically-speaking. We're all too far diverse in our political/personal thinking to let that interfere with our working relationships(and it's very hard for it not to if these threads go down the wrong pike).

On the other hand, some of this political discussion-WHEN RELATING TO GAMES-is absolutely essential. Outside of that, it just screams flame-war, and even though I've dived into my fair share in the past, I'd rather not do it here.

So, in response to Eric's question on whether or not obscene games such as "Aryan Nation" should be allowed to be made, it brings up two answers: Yes and No.

Yes, because it is freedom of speech to create a game of any situation. No, because games in that area of the obscenity spectrum are usually created for the express purpose to motivate and attempt to train individuals to commit in reality the actions the player can commit in the game. I myself lean towards "oh, hell no!" for these games, seeing that half my DNA comes from the Carribean instead of any mythical pool of "better" stuff. Not that I favor any given chunk of DNA(except that little 34647th "ACCG" pair, he's cool as hell).

So I would say that intent has much to do with games. GTA has no intent, and so should be fine. Aryan Nation has loads of intent, and the developers should be arrested for conspiracy and attempt to incite violence(or as far as those laws allow).

I do worry a bit about the governments decisions on things of this nature, but it's more along the lines of specific politicians or among those of influence. IE, Senator Liberman who wants to ban certain types of music or games or censor them. Or Tipper Gore, who's of the same bent. Or the haitian group that decided to go after GTA3 over a year after it had been out, proving that their only motivation was political. They've got equivalents on the right-side of the spectrum as well, and I won't single any one party out, because it's really not that kind of problem. The problem is that people have differing perceptions on the motivation power of music and games. And while I agree that music and games can put you into certain emotional states(as can some movies or books or speeches), the Nuremburgh trials upheld individual responsibility. Listening to gansta rap won't make you a drug dealer. Listening to a political speech won't turn you into a mindless sheep.

However, I do see the day, if my persistent world project is completed, where I will need to take the stand to defend it against someone who does not know personal responsibility. And that is the main political "game issue".

#44 Well I don't agree with those type of games. I do feel these people have the right to express themselves. Unfortunately people will buy these games.(Hopefully not too many)For example I don't agree with the KKK but I do believe they have a right to be heard no matter how much it angers me.

#45 I have to add to this because I just read Ted's post and he made a good point.

Quote: No, because games in that area of the obscenity spectrum are usually created for the express purpose to motivate and attempt to train individuals to commit in reality the actions the player can commit in the game.

I agree but we would have to be careful about determining that. If the game was proven to be distributed as propagana towards a race in example I believe legal action must be taken. Otherwise I think unfortunately we would have to accept that their are A-Holes in the world and move on.

#46 @Michael: That was exactly my point. There *are* A-holes who aren't racist, but do it to be "funny". You have to look at who's behind the game. If the KKK puts out "Aryan Nation", then there's a good bet that action needs to be taken.

You'd think that with all the crappy game ideas already out there we wouldn't need to worry about these. Go figure...

#47 Forgive me, Ted, if I misunderstood your post. How can you say that Aryan Power incites violence, but also imply that GTA3 doesn't? I mean, what's the logistical gameplaying difference in killing a Jew in AP or killing someone else in GTA3?

Not that I'm for any of that. I am for game developers considering the moral aspects of what they are going to publish, and that IMHO its irresponsible to totally sluff it off once it's been sold.

#48 @Eric: I'm not talking about the intent of the game, but the intent of the authors. The games, in and of themselves cannot have intent, and in that the logistical differences are small if any. The authors of the games, on the other hand, can have intent. And intent carries over, not only in the design of the game, but in it's audience.

There is a difference between the "mafia story" style of GTA, which is not intended to be anything other than a fictional story, and the Aryan Nation game, which preaches a radical and violent view of race toward the player. That's where intent comes through.

#49 Hhmm. I think that's a fine line, especially since GTA3 isn't the most politically correct game out there.

What if someone just wants to make a buck, and doesn't care about promotion of racism? Is it really ok for us to say, "Hey! It's not my responsibility. I only made the game"?

Now, if it could be legally shown that Aryan Power is a recruiting tool, you might have a case (if that IS a case?) Of course, we all know that GTA3 is Mafia training. ;)

-E

#50 Yeah, it is a fine line, but I'm not taking political correctness into account, just decency and intent. GTA isn't all that decent, but the intent's not there. Aryan Nation is not decent at all, but the intent is there.

Quote:Now, if it could be legally shown that Aryan Power is a recruiting tool, you might have a case (if that IS a case?)

It doesn't even need to be a recruiting tool, but show an explicit call to violence for the audience. That's where the law steps in and decides. And that's why GTA is different. It doesn't tell people to go out and commit those acts. Neither do other mafia movies, though they make mention of various race groups(in the context of gangs, which is the thing that the haitian group totally overlooks for GTA) and eliminating some or all of them. It's a story, and things done and mentioned are in that context. It may be indecent or distasteful, but it's not intended to be anything other than that. Hell, even rap music falls into this category, and whether people like it or not, it is not an explicit call to violence, and the lyrics are made in the context of a story(with the exceptions which do bring attention to themselves and should be looked upon in the same light as the Aryan Nation game, but those examples constitute a similar percentage of music as Aryan Nation-type games constitute a percentage of games).

Aryan Nation is intended for an audience that is predisposed to the acts through teachings of that nature, and the game itself is intended as a teaching tool. It should be regarded as any other racist paraphenalia.

#51

Quote:I spar all day long with some very worthy (and some further left than Al Franken) opponents on another board. I'd don't want to do that here, because I'd rather just talk games/engines and not possibly jeapordize current or future working relationships.

Personally, out of every single person here, Eric Forhan is among those that I respect the most because he IS vocal. He is also able to argue a point and backup his opinion with facts, or at the very least, very valid insight.

Too many people think that restating an opinion is a valid argument. It's not.

Someone like Eric forces me to think and reconsider my position, and that is something truly valuable. I can understand Erics concern that it may potentially jeapordize future working relationships. But if developers can't split their differences to get the job done, there is a certain professional quality that is lacking in that relationship. With such a barrier, there is no way I could work with a person that was afraid to bring up potentially controversial topics. I simply can't respect that kind of person, because I depend on them to balance my views.

@Ted, Americas Army IS a recruiting tool. The Army IS real. And the Army REALLY kills people (among other more peaceful deeds). Recruiting in and of itself cannot become the target, regardless whether it feeds our ideals or opposes them.

Predisposed acts and teaching tools? Call of Duty fits that bill. We KNOW the Axis Powers were an Evil Empire. Yet I don't go running through the game killing Nazis because I hate them. Its a serious struggle to survive, and my only goal is complete the objectives and get out alive. Sometimes that means gunning down a Nazi or 10.

If a game such as Aryan Nation was able to inject the level immersion required to actually RECRUIT and breed hatred, that is almost a model worth studying. While the Aryan Nation itself could be complete crap, could you imagine a game that actually made you HATE your enemy? Place that game model into the world of Unreal, or Half-Life, or Everquest and that would be a game that would take things to the next level. No more killing enemies because they are there, or because they are ugly. Enemies are actually DISCRIMINATED against within the game world.

Now would gaming on this level be a good or bad thing?

Furthermore, if a game called Aryan Nation becomes a hot seller, we as a world have far more important issues to sort out. Such as WHY does such a grossly wrong concept sell?

#52 @Randall, I never said recruiting for a group in itself should be targeted, but the intent behind it(incitement, which is not protected speech). You're right about America's Army in all respects. I also never said that Aryan Nation was the sole teaching mechanism for racist teachings. But, as one of the mechanisms, it should fall under the category of racist literature, because that is it's intent. It has an affect, and it has an affect because it's authors know what effect it's supposed to have.

Quote:While the Aryan Nation itself could be complete crap, could you imagine a game that actually made you HATE your enemy? Place that game model into the world of Unreal, or Half-Life, or Everquest and that would be a game that would take things to the next level. No more killing enemies because they are there, or because they are ugly. Enemies are actually DISCRIMINATED against within the game world.

Now would gaming on this level be a good or bad thing?

Good question. Both? Maybe it would find application within psychiatric circles.

Quote:Furthermore, if a game called Aryan Nation becomes a hot seller, we as a world have far more important issues to sort out. Such as WHY does such a grossly wrong concept sell?

Now that's an excellent statement, and a question that answers itself.

#53 I have no idea where you live Ted... do you actually live in the US? I've been handed all kinds of racist literature on the streets of LA, New York City, Seattle and Portland. The most disturbing piece of racist literature I recieved was in a small town in Idaho, which was obviously Aryan (there are actually neo-nazi/aryans there).

Furthermore, my Native American Tribal Council (Coeur d' Alene) received numerous letters from Aryans, asking our tribe to join forces with them to "bring down the government". They acknowledged the struggle Native Americans have tolerated over the centuries and wanted to support us in our "due rights". I have no idea how the Aryans assumed that we had a common goal, common history, and deserved an alliance.

So racist literature, as far as I know isn't illegal in and of itself. I haven't seen any arrests. The Black guy in NYC that stood on a crate within a block of my house, and shouted pro-black anti-everything-that-isn't-black propaganda was never arrested. They handed out pamphlets. This was a daily ritual.

Quote:Furthermore, if a game called Aryan Nation becomes a hot seller, we as a world have far more important issues to sort out. Such as WHY does such a grossly wrong concept sell?

And I fail to see an answer in there. By "grossly wrong concept", I meant the theory behind Aryan Nation, not the game itself. I have seen THOUSANDS of people turn away racist pamphlets on the street. What would suddenly make people BUY it?

#54 Randall, I'm failing to see exactly what you're arguing in most of that response. The legality of racist literature? Maybe legal-depends on where in the US you are. Inciting people to violence? Against the law. Inciting rebellion(as you indicated by the Aryan communications with your tribal council)? Illegal. Conspiring to do so? Illegal. So what's your argument there?? That it still happens? There's nothing I can say to that except that those people are still swimming on the shallow end of the gene pool.

And let me rearrange your quote to illustrate what I was saying:

Quote:Such as WHY does such a grossly wrong concept sell? Furthermore, if a game called Aryan Nation becomes a hot seller, we as a world have far more important issues to sort out.

Make a little more sense now?

BTW, I'm a New Yorker, though living in Detroit right now.

#55 As a non-american myself I've resisted butting into this thread, but I can't resist this one.

IMO, in a truly free country it should be perfectly legal for this to happen:

A guy stands on a soapbox in a public park, repeating himself along the lines of "Death to all blacks, whites, . Join me in a serious attempt to wipe them out, then when we've done that, lets overthrow the government and take control. Death to the president!"

I'm sure no sane-minded person wants that, so we have laws to prevent certain behaviour. We are in effect living in a society that is "partly free". How big a part that is is based on what you tell your government you want. After all, if 51% of the population want to be able to wipe out the other 49, then thats democracy in action and lets make it the law. Ummm...

#56 LOL, Paul. Good point ;)

#57 "People who make the games don't care about the feelings of others, just the money that the game can rake in."

-Anonymous

#58 Paul, you seem to think that a fully free society has no laws, but such a society is in chaos, and therefore not free. Those with weapons and resources have power, and it is difficult to take that away. Think Post-Y2K theories.

as for Aryan Nation, I can't believe that such a game was ever allowed, racism doesn't just cross the line of free speech, it runs clean over it. Up here in Canada, Manhunt was rated AO in Ontario, it was nearly banned. and that game is only senselessly violent, not racist.

[possible flamewar sparker]
IMO free speech is a right which should be held with respect. If someone wanted to discuss different, highly controversial issues in a frank, calm forum (public discussion, not necessarily internet forum), I am perfectly fine. If someone starts inciting hate and racism towards a particular religion which has faced considerable hardship over the past >2000 years, then I will not let that stand. even if I am only marginally affiliated with them (Roman Catholic, offshoot, but different).
[/possible flamewar sparker]

#59 @Paul:

The problem with allowing incitements to violence is that it removes the possibility of conspiracy convictions. If it is perfectly legal to stand on a soapbox and exhortate passersby to kill all the blacks, then it must also be legal for a mob boss to order his lackies to murder a shopkeeper who hasn't paid his dues. And if that's legal, then leading a terrorist ring is also legal...

#60 I think the best thing to do is to just wait until all of our communications move over to the internet and satellite communication like XFM. The internet and satellites are not limited like radio and TV waves, so government can have no excuse or pretext about "public ownership" to start censoring things. I believe that the free market will prevail through the internet, even if it isn't that best way it could have happened. Surely, this is a good issue to be aware of, and I support any anti-censorship, pro-free market effort, but I think things will work themselves out by simply moving to internet and satellites. For every way government limits us, we find 2 news ways to do it :)