Which rules: Shaders or Gameplay?
by Eric Forhan · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 03/20/2004 (9:18 am) · 27 replies
With all the talk about TSE, I thought I'd offer my experience with the recent demo of "Farcry".
I loaded up Farcry, without really having seen any screenshots of the game. Of course, the first thing I went in was tweak my settings. My machine, once a king among kings, is now a meager 700mhz AMD w/9500 Radeon. So, since many games in the past would allow me to tweak almost to the top, I did such. I went to load...and load...and load...and...lock-up. Rats.
I rebooted and tried again, only to have my machine freeze once more. So, I wisened-up and lowered the settings some more--to about the "medium" mark. Ugh. My mind could had visions of blurry blobs where one could only barely recognize textures. I hit "Start" and finally it loaded.
Wow. The water had real reflections. Vegetation was everywhere. The sand glowed slightly from the sun reflecting off. The level looked huge!
Quite simply, I was stunned and ready to go buy the game and, had I the money, flushed my system and bought a brand new everything so I could see the game in its full glory.
But then I played the game. Ugh. The AI sucked. Totally sucked. They would hear you and easily lose track of where you were. Or, you'd clear out a space, only to suddenly have one sneak up on you without a sound and slay you where you stand. Not to mention repetitive voiceovers, and even graphic problems (I eventually had to lower the graphics to the lowest settings).
So, it looks great--but I'm not going to run out and get it, now.
Build your game. Work on your gameplay. Make rock-solid gameplay and some nice graphics. When your game is this far along and you still can't afford TSE but really want it, beg GG to help you out. Until then, don't worry that your car's brakelights don't have a fuzzy glow. Worry that your racing game just isn't any fun.
Sincerely,
-Eric F
edited because I can't speel.
I loaded up Farcry, without really having seen any screenshots of the game. Of course, the first thing I went in was tweak my settings. My machine, once a king among kings, is now a meager 700mhz AMD w/9500 Radeon. So, since many games in the past would allow me to tweak almost to the top, I did such. I went to load...and load...and load...and...lock-up. Rats.
I rebooted and tried again, only to have my machine freeze once more. So, I wisened-up and lowered the settings some more--to about the "medium" mark. Ugh. My mind could had visions of blurry blobs where one could only barely recognize textures. I hit "Start" and finally it loaded.
Wow. The water had real reflections. Vegetation was everywhere. The sand glowed slightly from the sun reflecting off. The level looked huge!
Quite simply, I was stunned and ready to go buy the game and, had I the money, flushed my system and bought a brand new everything so I could see the game in its full glory.
But then I played the game. Ugh. The AI sucked. Totally sucked. They would hear you and easily lose track of where you were. Or, you'd clear out a space, only to suddenly have one sneak up on you without a sound and slay you where you stand. Not to mention repetitive voiceovers, and even graphic problems (I eventually had to lower the graphics to the lowest settings).
So, it looks great--but I'm not going to run out and get it, now.
Build your game. Work on your gameplay. Make rock-solid gameplay and some nice graphics. When your game is this far along and you still can't afford TSE but really want it, beg GG to help you out. Until then, don't worry that your car's brakelights don't have a fuzzy glow. Worry that your racing game just isn't any fun.
Sincerely,
-Eric F
edited because I can't speel.
About the author
#22
You can't polish a turd... :)
No FX technology, however shiney, will make a crappy game fun to play.
03/21/2004 (10:39 am)
Bottom line:You can't polish a turd... :)
No FX technology, however shiney, will make a crappy game fun to play.
#23
--John Romero
Better chosen words that "John Romero is gonna make you his bitch." :) But gameplay should almost always take precedence over the visuals. It could be argued games such as "Myst" and "Riven" require more of a focus on graphical quality to start with, but since the puzzles and such are environmental and tied very closely into the visual display, the gameplay could be considered be of equal value to the graphics in that situation.
Aside from that, as Mr. Romero so pointedly stated, "gameplay is law." Heck, look at Pop Cap Games. "Bejeweled" isn't exactly on the bleeding edge of graphical development, and it doesn't have to be. It's fast, it's simple, it's FUN! Excellent gameplay, even with "simple" graphics.
03/21/2004 (11:13 am)
"Gameplay is law."--John Romero
Better chosen words that "John Romero is gonna make you his bitch." :) But gameplay should almost always take precedence over the visuals. It could be argued games such as "Myst" and "Riven" require more of a focus on graphical quality to start with, but since the puzzles and such are environmental and tied very closely into the visual display, the gameplay could be considered be of equal value to the graphics in that situation.
Aside from that, as Mr. Romero so pointedly stated, "gameplay is law." Heck, look at Pop Cap Games. "Bejeweled" isn't exactly on the bleeding edge of graphical development, and it doesn't have to be. It's fast, it's simple, it's FUN! Excellent gameplay, even with "simple" graphics.
#24
I showed my wife the Dev snapshot of the day and asked here: Doesn't this look awesome? She replied uh yeah as if to please me. I said you don't care do you? She replied looks the same as before to me.
She likes games but is not hardcore. When I downloaded the demo of Marble Blast I made her play it. She was instantly addicted. I told her I would buy it for her. She said no don't buy it I won't ever get anything done.
So my point is gameplay is key. Particularly for casual gamers and I believe for hardcore gamers too. I still play Tribes 1 because I have yet to play a game that has kept my attention for as long as that game.
Don't get me wrong TSE is going to be awesome and I will probably hop on quickly. I think that graphics is icing on the cake. So gameplay first looks second. Imagine Tribes 1 gameplay with TSE graphics. OOOOOOOAAAAAAAHHHHH.
03/22/2004 (5:56 am)
I totally agree with Nicolas QuijanoQuote: casual gamers couldn't care less if the game looks are dated or not, as they're (as a generalisation) not aware of the tech curve :)
I showed my wife the Dev snapshot of the day and asked here: Doesn't this look awesome? She replied uh yeah as if to please me. I said you don't care do you? She replied looks the same as before to me.
She likes games but is not hardcore. When I downloaded the demo of Marble Blast I made her play it. She was instantly addicted. I told her I would buy it for her. She said no don't buy it I won't ever get anything done.
So my point is gameplay is key. Particularly for casual gamers and I believe for hardcore gamers too. I still play Tribes 1 because I have yet to play a game that has kept my attention for as long as that game.
Don't get me wrong TSE is going to be awesome and I will probably hop on quickly. I think that graphics is icing on the cake. So gameplay first looks second. Imagine Tribes 1 gameplay with TSE graphics. OOOOOOOAAAAAAAHHHHH.
#25
Graphics are engaging, but the wow factor wears off after a little bit. Gameplay leads to replay value. Also, I am a huge fan of physics based games, as this in itself is a gameplay element that comes from programming. Why is GTA fun? Not because you can shoot hookers, but because its different each time due to physics. It also gives the user freedom.
My theory is that games are all about being/doing something FUN you cant do in the real world. I think that games these days are just completely out of hand with their 2-4 year dev cycles, much of it due to art assets. Programming is way cheaper and can contribute much much more. I am not a huge fan of many games, but the ones I love all have something in common; excellent gameplay. Why are RTSes fun? Not because of excellent graphics, not even warcraft 3.
The thing about shaders that appeals to me is vertex shaders yeild procedural deformations which could be very cool depending on your game. You wanna do a remake of "a boy and his blob"?- vertex morphs. etc, etc...
Also, i think it was in this thread that I saw something about "sreenshots sell games" or somethign to that effect. Well, you can have impressive screenshots w/o shaders!!
-s
03/22/2004 (9:05 am)
Gameplay, Gameplay, Gameplay!Graphics are engaging, but the wow factor wears off after a little bit. Gameplay leads to replay value. Also, I am a huge fan of physics based games, as this in itself is a gameplay element that comes from programming. Why is GTA fun? Not because you can shoot hookers, but because its different each time due to physics. It also gives the user freedom.
My theory is that games are all about being/doing something FUN you cant do in the real world. I think that games these days are just completely out of hand with their 2-4 year dev cycles, much of it due to art assets. Programming is way cheaper and can contribute much much more. I am not a huge fan of many games, but the ones I love all have something in common; excellent gameplay. Why are RTSes fun? Not because of excellent graphics, not even warcraft 3.
The thing about shaders that appeals to me is vertex shaders yeild procedural deformations which could be very cool depending on your game. You wanna do a remake of "a boy and his blob"?- vertex morphs. etc, etc...
Also, i think it was in this thread that I saw something about "sreenshots sell games" or somethign to that effect. Well, you can have impressive screenshots w/o shaders!!
-s
#26
A really beautiful but annoying woman isn't gonna see a lot of second or third dates.
But an ugly woman may have to wait a long time for someone to spend enough time with her to see past her looks and discover what an amazing person she is.
Most of the time, you NEED the eye candy to get people to even bother looking at your game. Bejewelled might not have been graphically amazing, but it was *pretty*. If it was more abstract, without the cool falling-gem animations, and with poor-quality title artwork and sound, I don't think it would have been noticed. Let alone become the minor phenominon it was. While all this eye-candy is a technological issue, it's also a marketing one.
Bottom line: Make the graphic as visually appealing as possible for your intended audience. That doesn't necessarily mean using the most state-of-the-art hardware capabilities, but that is one aspect of it.
But never neglect your gameplay.
03/22/2004 (9:34 am)
Well, to use a sexist analogy:A really beautiful but annoying woman isn't gonna see a lot of second or third dates.
But an ugly woman may have to wait a long time for someone to spend enough time with her to see past her looks and discover what an amazing person she is.
Most of the time, you NEED the eye candy to get people to even bother looking at your game. Bejewelled might not have been graphically amazing, but it was *pretty*. If it was more abstract, without the cool falling-gem animations, and with poor-quality title artwork and sound, I don't think it would have been noticed. Let alone become the minor phenominon it was. While all this eye-candy is a technological issue, it's also a marketing one.
Bottom line: Make the graphic as visually appealing as possible for your intended audience. That doesn't necessarily mean using the most state-of-the-art hardware capabilities, but that is one aspect of it.
But never neglect your gameplay.
Torque Owner Mike Stoddart
Best quote yet!