License Question and Your Opinion Please
by Peter Phelks · in Torque Game Engine · 03/01/2004 (2:17 am) · 22 replies
I'm just asking this question to verify the license. Say an individual purchases a single user license and then uses it to make a game. Then they independantly publish it. Do they only need to purchase the $10,000 dollar license after $500,000 sales?
Is that correct?
Also, I know there's no real answer to a question like this, but why are there not too many FPS games made with Torque? Am I just missing them? Poacher looks impressive, as well as some others I can't remember offhand. Anyways, I'm just looking for some opinions as to why.
Thanks.
Is that correct?
Also, I know there's no real answer to a question like this, but why are there not too many FPS games made with Torque? Am I just missing them? Poacher looks impressive, as well as some others I can't remember offhand. Anyways, I'm just looking for some opinions as to why.
Thanks.
About the author
#2
03/01/2004 (4:52 am)
A good FPS requires a team of 20+ working for 1.5+ years. Most Torquers are teams of 1-5. Many are working on them, but it will be quite some time still before any are released.
#3
That doesn't sound very logical at all. If a company sells 20 games and only one is made with the Torque engine, then why should $10,000 be paid to Garage Games?
Don't get me wrong, I'd pay the $10,000 off of $500,000. But I like to remain legitimate. Still, a company can get around this by just using a new company as the 'publisher' of each title made with Torque.
But whatever, thanks for clearing that up for me.
PS - I heard that GarageGames is coming out with an FPS, but that it is made with the UnReal Engine and not Torque. Is this true?
03/01/2004 (8:58 am)
>>total not just from your torque game<<That doesn't sound very logical at all. If a company sells 20 games and only one is made with the Torque engine, then why should $10,000 be paid to Garage Games?
Don't get me wrong, I'd pay the $10,000 off of $500,000. But I like to remain legitimate. Still, a company can get around this by just using a new company as the 'publisher' of each title made with Torque.
But whatever, thanks for clearing that up for me.
PS - I heard that GarageGames is coming out with an FPS, but that it is made with the UnReal Engine and not Torque. Is this true?
#4
You might be overstating the numbers a bit there.
03/01/2004 (9:16 am)
Quote:
A good FPS requires a team of 20+ working for 1.5+ years.
You might be overstating the numbers a bit there.
#5
The reason is that we are attempting to help "indies", i.e. small companies that cannot afford to purchase the technology big compaies use. Our definition of an indie is a company making less than $500,000 per year. Seems pretty reasonable and logical to us. If you already have a big company, then you can afoord to pay. If you make 20 games over the next couple of years, then, wow! you are really cooking. I think you are looking at the fringe condition that will never occur.
If you are a start up worrying about what will happen when you hit the big time, just remember that is takes a long time to get to $500,000 in revenue. If you already have $500,000 in revenue, then you can afford to pay more.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
03/01/2004 (10:40 am)
@Peter:The reason is that we are attempting to help "indies", i.e. small companies that cannot afford to purchase the technology big compaies use. Our definition of an indie is a company making less than $500,000 per year. Seems pretty reasonable and logical to us. If you already have a big company, then you can afoord to pay. If you make 20 games over the next couple of years, then, wow! you are really cooking. I think you are looking at the fringe condition that will never occur.
If you are a start up worrying about what will happen when you hit the big time, just remember that is takes a long time to get to $500,000 in revenue. If you already have $500,000 in revenue, then you can afford to pay more.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
#6
03/01/2004 (11:07 am)
The thing is that to make that happen you would have to make and sell a torque game and then relesase it THEN you would come out with like 20 other FPS' or you would have already paye the 10,000 to just buy the engine. if you are making that much money it seems fair to take one 50th of the profits ONE time.
#7
Like I said I have no problems paying the fee even if I come to $100,000. I believe in remaining as legetimate as possible.
However, I am at game number 10 and the Torque game, which is fully planned out, will (if all goes well) be beta ready within 3 months.
But anyways, I'm still way off from $500,000 GG. I'll probably see yeah in about 20 years for that. (If I'm lucky.) lol!
03/01/2004 (1:35 pm)
Thanks folks. I appreciate your answers.Like I said I have no problems paying the fee even if I come to $100,000. I believe in remaining as legetimate as possible.
However, I am at game number 10 and the Torque game, which is fully planned out, will (if all goes well) be beta ready within 3 months.
But anyways, I'm still way off from $500,000 GG. I'll probably see yeah in about 20 years for that. (If I'm lucky.) lol!
#8
Hmmm. I have a team of 3(including me) and I'm planning on cranking out a very serious feature packed FPS that pulls out all the stops. Once I'm rolling I can lay down code at a furious rate for hours on end. Keep your eye's open. A Quality FPS is coming to a Torque near you.
Just out of curiosity, how did you arrive at your numbers?
03/01/2004 (5:11 pm)
"A good FPS requires a team of 20+ working for 1.5+ years. Most Torquers are teams of 1-5. Many are working on them, but it will be quite some time still before any are released."Hmmm. I have a team of 3(including me) and I'm planning on cranking out a very serious feature packed FPS that pulls out all the stops. Once I'm rolling I can lay down code at a furious rate for hours on end. Keep your eye's open. A Quality FPS is coming to a Torque near you.
Just out of curiosity, how did you arrive at your numbers?
#9
Not trying to start anything, just pointing out something that I think isn't really mentioned in the non-commercial license. Meaning, the non-commercial license kind of leaves it open as to whether you'd pay up front or not if your revenues exceed $500,000. The commercial license seems to be less ambiguous.
03/01/2004 (8:05 pm)
I haven't looked at the commercial license, but from this post, it sounds like you actually pay $10,000 up front if your publisher or you has revenues of $500,000+. Not trying to start anything, just pointing out something that I think isn't really mentioned in the non-commercial license. Meaning, the non-commercial license kind of leaves it open as to whether you'd pay up front or not if your revenues exceed $500,000. The commercial license seems to be less ambiguous.
#10
Also, when considering ambiguities, realize that the core GG guys (Jeff, Mark, Tim, Rick) are here because they dislike the strong arm tactics that publishers like to use. They're not out to sue you or make you pay unfairly due to some weird interpretation of the rules. Of course, that's not legally binding. But if you care enough to need a legally binding statement, maybe you should be hiring a lawyer and talking to them directly... :)
I'm trying to let you be aware of the spirit the licenses are offered in.
03/01/2004 (8:55 pm)
As TheKing notes, something might be happening in the near future to address this.Also, when considering ambiguities, realize that the core GG guys (Jeff, Mark, Tim, Rick) are here because they dislike the strong arm tactics that publishers like to use. They're not out to sue you or make you pay unfairly due to some weird interpretation of the rules. Of course, that's not legally binding. But if you care enough to need a legally binding statement, maybe you should be hiring a lawyer and talking to them directly... :)
I'm trying to let you be aware of the spirit the licenses are offered in.
#11
1. you pay 100 bucks for the license...UNLESS
A. You make over 500 grand IN ONE YEAR using your 100 dollar license....
or
B. You are currently involved with a publisher or company that ALREADY has revenues above 500 grand for one year.
If A is true, you pay them 10 grand AFTER you reach the 500K mark.
if B is true, then you pay them 10 grand BEFORE you market your game.
Puhleeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaase lets put this to rest. It's as simple as it can get. If you really really need it completely clarified, I'm sure that GG will be happy to supply you with an agreement that you will need your lawyer to explain to you.
03/02/2004 (5:17 am)
The EULA is as simple as it gets....1. you pay 100 bucks for the license...UNLESS
A. You make over 500 grand IN ONE YEAR using your 100 dollar license....
or
B. You are currently involved with a publisher or company that ALREADY has revenues above 500 grand for one year.
If A is true, you pay them 10 grand AFTER you reach the 500K mark.
if B is true, then you pay them 10 grand BEFORE you market your game.
Puhleeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaase lets put this to rest. It's as simple as it can get. If you really really need it completely clarified, I'm sure that GG will be happy to supply you with an agreement that you will need your lawyer to explain to you.
#12
Jeez, the Earth might hit the sun tomorrow... I don't think I'm going to work on my game.
If your revenues are above $500,000 you do need to pay $10,000 upfront, and we MAKE NO SECTRET OF THIS!. In fact, we have been screwed on this by having huge companies and government agencies attempt to use Torque under our Indie License with lame excuses that it isn't commercial.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
03/02/2004 (8:19 am)
It amazes me how people get off in the weeds in regards to this EULA. If you don't have a big publisher or ar a big company yourself, then what is your worry? Just accept the gift, use the technology, and make your game. Don't worry about the what if's that will never happen.Jeez, the Earth might hit the sun tomorrow... I don't think I'm going to work on my game.
If your revenues are above $500,000 you do need to pay $10,000 upfront, and we MAKE NO SECTRET OF THIS!. In fact, we have been screwed on this by having huge companies and government agencies attempt to use Torque under our Indie License with lame excuses that it isn't commercial.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
#13
Sorry for causing this trouble. I really didn't mean to.
03/02/2004 (9:00 am)
The license agreement is clear to me know thanks, but I'm just amazed that this post degenerated into people screaming at each other.Sorry for causing this trouble. I really didn't mean to.
#14
03/02/2004 (11:16 am)
It's a bit of sore point in the community. People like to, as Jeff said, obsess over it.
#15
The link I posted was more of an alert, in case GG feels like correcting the misinformation floating around at Caligari. I didn't feel I knew their EULA well enough to say one way or another.
The ONLY thing I think they might have misinterpreted is that they say a development company with revenues UNDER $500k with a publisher that had revenues OVER $500k would have to pay the $10k up front. That might actually be right - but I don't know that GG would ask a small company of independents for the money they don't have (assuming the publisher didn't foot the bill in one way or another).
Quick Question since everyone's so talkative. Can we assume GG has revenues of $500k or more? If so, would you charge a development house $10k up front to distribute their game? :)
03/02/2004 (9:42 pm)
I love the license agreement - probably never release anything worth buying, but I love what GG is doing and hope *some* people do make money off of it. Or, just have fun and keep GG in business so we can all enjoy what they're providing.The link I posted was more of an alert, in case GG feels like correcting the misinformation floating around at Caligari. I didn't feel I knew their EULA well enough to say one way or another.
The ONLY thing I think they might have misinterpreted is that they say a development company with revenues UNDER $500k with a publisher that had revenues OVER $500k would have to pay the $10k up front. That might actually be right - but I don't know that GG would ask a small company of independents for the money they don't have (assuming the publisher didn't foot the bill in one way or another).
Quick Question since everyone's so talkative. Can we assume GG has revenues of $500k or more? If so, would you charge a development house $10k up front to distribute their game? :)
#16
03/03/2004 (8:08 am)
Dan, the publisher combo of GG and any Indie TGE licensee is the only one exempt of the 500k rule, as per Jeff T.'s words in another thread on the topic :) 
#17
03/04/2004 (10:28 am)
We need a license FAQ, this thread is popping up over and over again...
#18
Employee Posted: Mar 04, 2004 12:28 CST
We need a license FAQ, this thread is popping up over and over again...
---------------------------------------------------------
That guy needs a raise....
03/04/2004 (12:00 pm)
Brian RamageEmployee Posted: Mar 04, 2004 12:28 CST
We need a license FAQ, this thread is popping up over and over again...
---------------------------------------------------------
That guy needs a raise....
#19
-nerseus
03/04/2004 (4:22 pm)
There is a license FAQ, might just need some clarification. Maybe add more detail to this link and any questions in the forums get directed there?-nerseus
#20
Also, to the GG guys, is there any way to make a forum of FAQs that can have "sticky" (always at the top) posts like I've seen on other forums? That would alleviate a lot of this i think; people are lazy, andif they see something right away they will be much less likely to post this crap again.
-s
03/04/2004 (10:55 pm)
Ok, I've been on GG for a year, and while I am a very patient person, this topic and these two variations/questions have popped up WAY WAY too much. Please, please people search the forums. Also, to the GG guys, is there any way to make a forum of FAQs that can have "sticky" (always at the top) posts like I've seen on other forums? That would alleviate a lot of this i think; people are lazy, andif they see something right away they will be much less likely to post this crap again.
-s
Torque Owner Dan -
Its that simple. Nothing hidden. If your company maks revenues above 500,000 (total not just from your torque game) then you pay. Otherwise you don't.
As far as "why are there not too many FPS games made with Torque" My guess is that their are a few but there are so many FPS in the world that the ones made with Torque are lost in the dust. Did you hear about Realm Wars before Torque? I didn't and its a free game been around for years.
You are better off as an indi developing a unique nitch game rather than going after markets already flooded with high buck developement games. (At least the way I see it)
Hope that helps.