Just bought the SDK and... well... SDK it aint...
by Tim Bolin · in Torque Game Engine · 02/26/2004 (7:12 pm) · 115 replies
At least, thats how it seems to me... i had previously been using OGRE, and within an hour of downloading and unzipping the source, i had managed to start a blank project (in vc++ 2003), import a mesh, draw a plane as a "ground" surface, draw a skydome, slap a texture on everything, toss out a light, drop in a camera, compile it, and see the finished product rendered out of the resulting exe...
contrast that with torque, where i have spent the last 8 hours trying to figure out where the FPS demo ends and the engine begins, and im no closer now than i was... and i have to say, WTF?? it is beginning to look like the "demo" is inextricably entwined with the engine itself, and that pretty much anything i do is going to be a mod of the demo... and pretty much all the tutorials support this suspicion...
i have absolutely ZERO interest in modding a demo, example, tutorial, or anything else... i want the class libraries, documentation, and ideally a blank template project so i can do in torque the equivilant of what i did with OGRE...
the main reason i purchased the engine was to have access to the code for audio, physics, network, etc... and i had hoped that it would be pretty clear what did what, what needed to be included where, and how to just initialize a rendering window and start adding objects to a scene, then in time as needed add in the other bits and pieces of the engine code...
so, in short, have i wasted my money? is there any way to just delete the "examples" directory and any and all "demo" code/script/assets/etc and still be able to use the engine? and if so, what is the bare minimum in the way of files i need to link in to my project to simply render a single object on screen as a starting point? if there is no way to do this, im just going to have to suck up the money spent and go back to ogre... it is starting to look like this may not be the best development choice for a turn-based strat game...
maybe the problem is ive gone into the whole torque thing without grasping the big picture... for example, the whole scripting thing... when and where and WHY would i ever want to do anything in script when i could do it in native c++? the scripting seems pretty central to the engine but i cant for the life of me understand why... i suppose it would be handy if you wanted your game to be moddable by its users... which i dont... or handy if you didnt want to code in c++... but i do...
if anyone could point me in the right direction, or point me at a tutorial explaining how to use the engine itself (and not one that touches in even the remotest form the demo code) id certainly appreciate it...
contrast that with torque, where i have spent the last 8 hours trying to figure out where the FPS demo ends and the engine begins, and im no closer now than i was... and i have to say, WTF?? it is beginning to look like the "demo" is inextricably entwined with the engine itself, and that pretty much anything i do is going to be a mod of the demo... and pretty much all the tutorials support this suspicion...
i have absolutely ZERO interest in modding a demo, example, tutorial, or anything else... i want the class libraries, documentation, and ideally a blank template project so i can do in torque the equivilant of what i did with OGRE...
the main reason i purchased the engine was to have access to the code for audio, physics, network, etc... and i had hoped that it would be pretty clear what did what, what needed to be included where, and how to just initialize a rendering window and start adding objects to a scene, then in time as needed add in the other bits and pieces of the engine code...
so, in short, have i wasted my money? is there any way to just delete the "examples" directory and any and all "demo" code/script/assets/etc and still be able to use the engine? and if so, what is the bare minimum in the way of files i need to link in to my project to simply render a single object on screen as a starting point? if there is no way to do this, im just going to have to suck up the money spent and go back to ogre... it is starting to look like this may not be the best development choice for a turn-based strat game...
maybe the problem is ive gone into the whole torque thing without grasping the big picture... for example, the whole scripting thing... when and where and WHY would i ever want to do anything in script when i could do it in native c++? the scripting seems pretty central to the engine but i cant for the life of me understand why... i suppose it would be handy if you wanted your game to be moddable by its users... which i dont... or handy if you didnt want to code in c++... but i do...
if anyone could point me in the right direction, or point me at a tutorial explaining how to use the engine itself (and not one that touches in even the remotest form the demo code) id certainly appreciate it...
#102
They have reached a tipping point in terms of ease of use.
Matter of fact, the new .zip format which makes it easy to get the engine in one easy download means users are less likely to do extensive study before trying to make something.
They'll look for the vc7 folder, load it up in VC++, compile and go without ever looking at the online docs.
You want them to go to the website to find out how to use tutorial.base? Put that in a .txt or .html file in the tutorial.base directory. Customer's happy and none of the TGE staff had to burn cycles on the subject.
03/13/2005 (10:28 pm)
Very much improved. Keep in mind not al Noobs are new arrivals. Many have owned TGE products since the company launched and come back from time to time to try their hand as the improvements roll out. I always make sure to praise the mammoth job these guys have done to get this far.They have reached a tipping point in terms of ease of use.
Matter of fact, the new .zip format which makes it easy to get the engine in one easy download means users are less likely to do extensive study before trying to make something.
They'll look for the vc7 folder, load it up in VC++, compile and go without ever looking at the online docs.
You want them to go to the website to find out how to use tutorial.base? Put that in a .txt or .html file in the tutorial.base directory. Customer's happy and none of the TGE staff had to burn cycles on the subject.
#103
I'm not a programmer either[insert Artist title here], but a fairly 'sharp' individual[and well above the age of 13, ;)], and I recently downloaded and installed the TGE SDK & TBE. I could not get Eclipse to compile the Project[as set up?], and it took running the Make.exe from the MS-DOS command line to get the ball rolling. I understand from the Resource title; it's still in Alpha, but this 'out of box' experience left me sitting there; going "huh, what's this error mean?" & "what do I do next?", at least on this particular machine, which held the SDK's files. Prompting the utilities the 'old way' seemed to work, which proved they function, it was my trying to run it all thru Eclipse where it all seemed to collapse. This method did generate an .EXE file of large size, over 4 Megs, whereas the default .exe was about a quarter that size.
I do feel that this system[v1.4+]'s modularity is a GRAND idea and one that will advance many developers along their paths in an expedicious manner. I am anxiously awaiting and hoping to get this system working sometime this mid-year, perhaps a bit sooner? Being a bit older, I do understand the nature of the beast; as I've been working the art pipeline for a while now before even attempting to look beyond the 'blue velour drapery'...I didn't think that aspect would change much, I was more waiting a sorting of the framework, which v1.4 seems to be the future benchmark structure, and a very good place to start, for me, ;).
Thanks for all the hard work, Jeff, et al.......
03/20/2005 (8:14 am)
Slightly, off topic...I'm not a programmer either[insert Artist title here], but a fairly 'sharp' individual[and well above the age of 13, ;)], and I recently downloaded and installed the TGE SDK & TBE. I could not get Eclipse to compile the Project[as set up?], and it took running the Make.exe from the MS-DOS command line to get the ball rolling. I understand from the Resource title; it's still in Alpha, but this 'out of box' experience left me sitting there; going "huh, what's this error mean?" & "what do I do next?", at least on this particular machine, which held the SDK's files. Prompting the utilities the 'old way' seemed to work, which proved they function, it was my trying to run it all thru Eclipse where it all seemed to collapse. This method did generate an .EXE file of large size, over 4 Megs, whereas the default .exe was about a quarter that size.
I do feel that this system[v1.4+]'s modularity is a GRAND idea and one that will advance many developers along their paths in an expedicious manner. I am anxiously awaiting and hoping to get this system working sometime this mid-year, perhaps a bit sooner? Being a bit older, I do understand the nature of the beast; as I've been working the art pipeline for a while now before even attempting to look beyond the 'blue velour drapery'...I didn't think that aspect would change much, I was more waiting a sorting of the framework, which v1.4 seems to be the future benchmark structure, and a very good place to start, for me, ;).
Thanks for all the hard work, Jeff, et al.......
#104
I just bought the indie game engine license and the shader engine EA today because it looks pretty good and seems to be well supported ( I did a lot of reading in this site). And it just so happens that when I went to my local bookstore they had 1 copy of 3D game programming all in one and it is so full of useful information I can hardly put it down.
I still have to try anything with the engine and not too sure of compiling the source but as a noob user of Torque this thread has been a great starting point for me as it not only is full of great information but it shows what the indie game scene and community is all about.
Thanks :-)
03/23/2005 (1:04 pm)
HiI just bought the indie game engine license and the shader engine EA today because it looks pretty good and seems to be well supported ( I did a lot of reading in this site). And it just so happens that when I went to my local bookstore they had 1 copy of 3D game programming all in one and it is so full of useful information I can hardly put it down.
I still have to try anything with the engine and not too sure of compiling the source but as a noob user of Torque this thread has been a great starting point for me as it not only is full of great information but it shows what the indie game scene and community is all about.
Thanks :-)
#105
Those who just want to use TorqueScript or create assets for a game can use the precompiled engine included in the SDK download. Attempting to compile the stock engine code would just make the process more complicated than it needs to be.
03/23/2005 (2:48 pm)
TBE is not only still in the alpha stage, it also isn't really intended for use by those who aren't programers or have no wish to learn programming.Those who just want to use TorqueScript or create assets for a game can use the precompiled engine included in the SDK download. Attempting to compile the stock engine code would just make the process more complicated than it needs to be.
#106
I know this is old, and I just accidentally found this post in the search. But, I must say that your "teaching by the process of elimination" is the most informative, brief, and yet direct to the point summary of Torque. I actually found it more useful than the "Documentation"
12/27/2006 (8:22 pm)
Ben G.,I know this is old, and I just accidentally found this post in the search. But, I must say that your "teaching by the process of elimination" is the most informative, brief, and yet direct to the point summary of Torque. I actually found it more useful than the "Documentation"
#107
It's nice to see that a thread that has a negative title like this can turn out to end up in a positive place.
12/27/2006 (9:26 pm)
Thanks for the kind words... looking back on this thread, there's actually a TON of really neat info in here (I just spent some time re-reading both my old posts, as well as a bunch of great posts from other community members too).It's nice to see that a thread that has a negative title like this can turn out to end up in a positive place.
#108
12/28/2006 (5:28 am)
Guys, dont bump old posts.
#109
Gives you a level of perspective on what exactly IT (Torque) "is", and perhaps, more importantly, what it "isn't" :). A lot of (unnecessary and perhaps inappropriate) frustration can come from coming at this with a level of inexperienced naivety and not sure what you expect, or what you should/shouldn't expect.
Lets you see the forest for the trees, so to speak.
:)
12/28/2006 (6:46 am)
Sure it's generally not a good idea, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't glad I saw this.Gives you a level of perspective on what exactly IT (Torque) "is", and perhaps, more importantly, what it "isn't" :). A lot of (unnecessary and perhaps inappropriate) frustration can come from coming at this with a level of inexperienced naivety and not sure what you expect, or what you should/shouldn't expect.
Lets you see the forest for the trees, so to speak.
:)
#110
Why do people think this is bad? As a moderator here, I'd MUCH rather you bump an old post that is on topic than create post number 113 about the exact same question.
12/28/2006 (9:54 am)
Quote:
Guys, dont bump old posts.
Why do people think this is bad? As a moderator here, I'd MUCH rather you bump an old post that is on topic than create post number 113 about the exact same question.
#111
always brings joy to a mod.
No off-topic please.
Those of you who have struggled to break Torque down into its component pieces will be pleased to hear that we're putting more priority on a clean modular codebase these days - even in the older, crustier parts of the engine.
Edit: Corrected my syllable counts.
12/28/2006 (10:42 am)
On topic is best,always brings joy to a mod.
No off-topic please.
Those of you who have struggled to break Torque down into its component pieces will be pleased to hear that we're putting more priority on a clean modular codebase these days - even in the older, crustier parts of the engine.
Edit: Corrected my syllable counts.
#112
I am a fan. Early on, I found myself thinking, "Why can't this be simpler? Why can't I modify anything I want more easily?". But even then, the answer was obvious: the only way to offer the necessary fexibility to the game _designer_ is via script--Torquescript. Itz da bomb. C++ is for accountants. I just want to get sh*t _done_. I understand the limitations, and the dangers, and I really don't give a damn. Script is the appropriate level at which to design gameplay, provided you've been provided a competent core for it to work around, which we have.
Truth is, the first 5-6 months or so was all learning--learning about the extensive capability this engine gives me, and how to make it work for me. Now I've spent the last 6 months actually making my game prototype, and the rate of progress is accelerating rapidly. I expect to have my demo (movies) ready in about a month. That's VERY fast for just one guy.
I've been a computer geek since I was a ten-year-old, and a pro for a decade plus, and I've never, ever been so productive. It's great!
Lee
01/04/2007 (9:15 pm)
This is an excellent thread. And I must say Torque must be the best engine available for anyone beginning to do serious work in a 3D game engine. I've spent the last 10 months of my life ramping up, and I'm just now starting to be able to really let my imagination run wild. I am a fan. Early on, I found myself thinking, "Why can't this be simpler? Why can't I modify anything I want more easily?". But even then, the answer was obvious: the only way to offer the necessary fexibility to the game _designer_ is via script--Torquescript. Itz da bomb. C++ is for accountants. I just want to get sh*t _done_. I understand the limitations, and the dangers, and I really don't give a damn. Script is the appropriate level at which to design gameplay, provided you've been provided a competent core for it to work around, which we have.
Truth is, the first 5-6 months or so was all learning--learning about the extensive capability this engine gives me, and how to make it work for me. Now I've spent the last 6 months actually making my game prototype, and the rate of progress is accelerating rapidly. I expect to have my demo (movies) ready in about a month. That's VERY fast for just one guy.
I've been a computer geek since I was a ten-year-old, and a pro for a decade plus, and I've never, ever been so productive. It's great!
Lee
#114
02/11/2007 (5:57 am)
Is Tim Bolin still around?
#115
02/12/2007 (9:12 am)
I'm amazed this thread is STILL around! i've been messing with torque for a few years now, and i've just now actually started making a REAL game with it (thanks to The Game Programmer's Guide to Torque). I think torque works better if you think of it as making mods with access to the source. 
Torque Owner Jeff Tunnell
All of these forum threads may help some people and I appreciate the work. However, IMO thay are not as clear or explanatory as the links and explanations on the main TGE page here www.garagegames.com/mg/projects/torque1/.
About three weeks ago I did my annual Noob install and work through of the Torque documentation and install process ( I am not a programmer). It worked flawlessly on both the PC and Mac without any internal help from the people around me that know TGE. The new install process that does not require CVS is much easier. Using already installed X-Code on OS-X and the Torque Build Enviironment made compiling easier than ever. Once I had the codebases installed, I was very happy with the documentation.
Please don't get me wrong. We need to continue to improve the OOBE for TGE and we will begin to work on it this coming week. I want it to at least be as complete as the new T2D docs. But, even that is not enough. We have much bigger plans.
-Jeff Tunnell GG