Question about art and contract work
by Jose Luis Cebrian · in General Discussion · 09/04/2001 (2:32 pm) · 23 replies
In my team we are evaluating the possibility of getting some outside artist working for us. We only have 1 artist, and while his work is impressive, he comes from the comic industry and is not very experienced with game-related art. I was just wondering what figures would be considered reasonable for this kind of work, considering that we are not doing this for the money but for personal improvement and experience (but we still aim for a professional look&feel though, and hopefully some online sales to recover part of our investment).
If you are an artist with experience in mods or startup game making, how much would you expect?
I was thinking along the lines of $100 for a fully animated model and $25 for a vehicle or prefab, depending on required complexity. However, I have absolutly zero idea of the time or effort involved. What do you think?
If you are an artist with experience in mods or startup game making, how much would you expect?
I was thinking along the lines of $100 for a fully animated model and $25 for a vehicle or prefab, depending on required complexity. However, I have absolutly zero idea of the time or effort involved. What do you think?
#2
11/07/2001 (11:41 am)
It all depends how much animation you will need and whether this includes skins or not...
#3
Still $ 100 sounds pretty reasonable to me. Some one who is mainly doing it for the fun of it, would probably figure every buck i get is more than nothing, while i'm still having the same good time learning....
I don't know, i'm not an expert, but that's the way i am thinking, i'm doing the stuff i do for nothing (and am not regretting that) and every cent i make, if our game ever makes it will be a nice extra but will never be an aspect for me to enjoy what i do more or less. I hope you will find your artist this way but hope even more that you will find him with out paying. Because i never met a person that was "more" motivated on the long term, because he got more (or in this case any) money..
But that's just the way i see it.
11/07/2001 (12:24 pm)
You don't want to be talking time here, because there is no way of telling how long a model will take. It all depents on the artists skill's, your requirements and the stuff that is reasonably possible with the tools used and within the engine... How many animatione sequences do you want, you wants skins or not and if so team collors yes or no, will the artist have to export it him self and face a troubles that comes with that or just have to deliver the raw thing and so on and so on...Still $ 100 sounds pretty reasonable to me. Some one who is mainly doing it for the fun of it, would probably figure every buck i get is more than nothing, while i'm still having the same good time learning....
I don't know, i'm not an expert, but that's the way i am thinking, i'm doing the stuff i do for nothing (and am not regretting that) and every cent i make, if our game ever makes it will be a nice extra but will never be an aspect for me to enjoy what i do more or less. I hope you will find your artist this way but hope even more that you will find him with out paying. Because i never met a person that was "more" motivated on the long term, because he got more (or in this case any) money..
But that's just the way i see it.
#4
Bear in mind, that if you want professional level work, you are going to need professionals. They don't work cheap.
Some of the amatuers out there do really great work though, and I think you are better off trying to inspire someone with the job then offering money for the work.
For those taking work as these prices, be careful. If this is what you charge, you will get alot of work, and you won't be able to do it sustainably if you choose to do it as a career.
Think about the time it takes you to do a job and what you are charging for it. If you end up making less than $5.00 an hour, well, you'd do better working at the supermarket.
But, it is better to learn by doing (and get paid for it) rather than pay through the nose to go to school and learn it.
The big danger is the false expectations it puts in the mind of start-up developers. If they want to make a serious push to form a real company, they will be surprised at what it actually costs to make this stuff.
In many ways, young talented folks who are willing to work for next to nothing are one of the reasons it is so hard to make a living as an artist or to break into the game industry as an artist. Why pay for what you can get for free?
So, whatever you can get someone to work for is a fair price. The lower the number the better. Don't expect people to jump up and down over the numbers quoted above though, and don't be offended if people blow you off.
11/07/2001 (12:53 pm)
If you are looking for someone experienced, the prices quoted don't even come close to what they should charge in order to make a living as a freelance artist. If you are looking for hobbyists to take on the work, then the prices are reasonable I suppose. Bear in mind, that if you want professional level work, you are going to need professionals. They don't work cheap.
Some of the amatuers out there do really great work though, and I think you are better off trying to inspire someone with the job then offering money for the work.
For those taking work as these prices, be careful. If this is what you charge, you will get alot of work, and you won't be able to do it sustainably if you choose to do it as a career.
Think about the time it takes you to do a job and what you are charging for it. If you end up making less than $5.00 an hour, well, you'd do better working at the supermarket.
But, it is better to learn by doing (and get paid for it) rather than pay through the nose to go to school and learn it.
The big danger is the false expectations it puts in the mind of start-up developers. If they want to make a serious push to form a real company, they will be surprised at what it actually costs to make this stuff.
In many ways, young talented folks who are willing to work for next to nothing are one of the reasons it is so hard to make a living as an artist or to break into the game industry as an artist. Why pay for what you can get for free?
So, whatever you can get someone to work for is a fair price. The lower the number the better. Don't expect people to jump up and down over the numbers quoted above though, and don't be offended if people blow you off.
#5
11/07/2001 (2:36 pm)
100 buck for a fully skinned modle is rather inexpensive I presently work in 3d graphics. It takes 18-30 hours of tweaking meshes to get a player modle just right AND within a low poly count. That is only the mesh . . .adding skin is another huge ordeal. . .then of course is the animations which may and may not work for you depending on how the mesh is formed. So then back to the drawing board. There is nothing worse than shoddy work on mesh. I agree that learing to do it for yourself is the best.
#6
I agree, most people could learn to do it but people should focus on things they are good at and if time is an issue then I see no problem in out-sourcing work to people who are good at it.
Andy
11/07/2001 (2:41 pm)
Learning to do it yourself is fine except that for a professional product you haven't got a hope in hells chance of completing everything yourself.I agree, most people could learn to do it but people should focus on things they are good at and if time is an issue then I see no problem in out-sourcing work to people who are good at it.
Andy
#7
Anthony hit the nail on the head when he threw out some time estimates.
The disconnect comes when people expect professional level artists to do the work at those prices.
Using anthony's numbers:
18 -30 hours for the mesh. So if you payed $100 dollars for the mesh, and the mesh takes, oh, say twenty hours, then the artist makes $5/hr.
So, if they want a map, and a few animations, we can easily double the time, and the artist is making $2.50/hr.
While this is fine for students and hobbyists, it won't get you pro quality work. It will get you student work.
You get what you pay for.
As the old saying goes: Good-Fast-Cheap
Pick two.
Given enough time, even a poor artist can produce passable product.
11/07/2001 (2:55 pm)
Agreed. Outsourcing is good if you want quality product and time is an issue.Anthony hit the nail on the head when he threw out some time estimates.
The disconnect comes when people expect professional level artists to do the work at those prices.
Using anthony's numbers:
18 -30 hours for the mesh. So if you payed $100 dollars for the mesh, and the mesh takes, oh, say twenty hours, then the artist makes $5/hr.
So, if they want a map, and a few animations, we can easily double the time, and the artist is making $2.50/hr.
While this is fine for students and hobbyists, it won't get you pro quality work. It will get you student work.
You get what you pay for.
As the old saying goes: Good-Fast-Cheap
Pick two.
Given enough time, even a poor artist can produce passable product.
#8
Personally, I wouldn't dream of paying a sub-contractor anything less than $15 per hour of work because it simply isn't worth their time or the harassment that you will give them while they do the work. A pay-per-model basis works good too if you don't trust your contractor to be honest, but you still have to base the payment amount for the model on a realistic amount of time that it will take a compitent and skilled individual to complete the task. Not only that but the software that artists use costs money, so you're just slapping serious (and legitamite) artists in the face by offering them such a paltry sum for the work that you want them to do.
11/07/2001 (3:02 pm)
Typically you get what you pay for with artwork/graphics. But on the plus side the artists portfolio can instantly tell you whether they are worth the price they want :)Personally, I wouldn't dream of paying a sub-contractor anything less than $15 per hour of work because it simply isn't worth their time or the harassment that you will give them while they do the work. A pay-per-model basis works good too if you don't trust your contractor to be honest, but you still have to base the payment amount for the model on a realistic amount of time that it will take a compitent and skilled individual to complete the task. Not only that but the software that artists use costs money, so you're just slapping serious (and legitamite) artists in the face by offering them such a paltry sum for the work that you want them to do.
#9
Earlier today I posted a job in 'Help Wanted' looking for a contract modeller to work on a per model basis.
The trouble is, a majority of those who replied are not willing to work on a professional basis, for example.
Two of the people who replied are not willing to submit estimates until I tell them the price range I am willing to pay... now come on, if you can't quote for a job then you shouldn't be contracting. I don't go to my clients and say 'I know this is a competitive tender but what are you looking at?' I have run a software company for 10 years now and even at the beginning when I was wet behind the ears, I still managed to quote for a job and based this on what I needed to cover my costs and a bit extra. As time went on and my skills improved then I modified my formula.
Another example is I wrote back to a guy with a few more details and said that I am interested in his services and would appreciate it if he could send some samples of his work. The responce I got back was so funny I collapsed on the floor laughing... 'I am not willing to take the time to send samples unless you can provide an exact price for the objects you require as this would be a complete waste of my resources'
Like you are ever going to get work with that kind of attitude.
Out of 15 replies in total I have had only 3 positive messages, the others included statements like...
'How do you expect me to quote for a job with so little details provided'
'I am only interested if we are talking over 100 items'
Now come on, I didn't think my post was that bad, but I do question why people would even bother responding if they were only interested in dumping on the idea!
So the crux of this is, I put a job out for tender and if people expect to be treated professionally then act like it!
Sorry for the rant... :-)
Andy
11/07/2001 (3:59 pm)
I agree, artists have to be paid appropriately and respectfully for what they are creating but I am going to have a major rant here...Earlier today I posted a job in 'Help Wanted' looking for a contract modeller to work on a per model basis.
The trouble is, a majority of those who replied are not willing to work on a professional basis, for example.
Two of the people who replied are not willing to submit estimates until I tell them the price range I am willing to pay... now come on, if you can't quote for a job then you shouldn't be contracting. I don't go to my clients and say 'I know this is a competitive tender but what are you looking at?' I have run a software company for 10 years now and even at the beginning when I was wet behind the ears, I still managed to quote for a job and based this on what I needed to cover my costs and a bit extra. As time went on and my skills improved then I modified my formula.
Another example is I wrote back to a guy with a few more details and said that I am interested in his services and would appreciate it if he could send some samples of his work. The responce I got back was so funny I collapsed on the floor laughing... 'I am not willing to take the time to send samples unless you can provide an exact price for the objects you require as this would be a complete waste of my resources'
Like you are ever going to get work with that kind of attitude.
Out of 15 replies in total I have had only 3 positive messages, the others included statements like...
'How do you expect me to quote for a job with so little details provided'
'I am only interested if we are talking over 100 items'
Now come on, I didn't think my post was that bad, but I do question why people would even bother responding if they were only interested in dumping on the idea!
So the crux of this is, I put a job out for tender and if people expect to be treated professionally then act like it!
Sorry for the rant... :-)
Andy
#10
I understand that this is a rant, and I am taking this into account as I reply to this. Please regard this as an honest attempt to reach you and allow you to understand the behavior of the people you have dismissed as unprofessional.
Respectfully, this behavior is part of what is called 'qualifying the client'.
Freelance artists tend to work on piece by piece basis for several clients. Often times, a great deal of time is spent dealing with the particulars of a job only to find out that the client is only 'tire kicking' (getting an estimate) or that the client does not have ability to pay or has unreasonable expectations of what the job is worth.
Particularly here on these boards, you have no idea who you are dealing with. It could be a ten year old kid, it could be Bill Gates using an alias.
It is fairly standard practice in the freelance art field to ask upfront what the job entails and the presumed budget for the project. It saves time and is considered to be professional behavior.
This process allows the artist to 'qualify' the client and see if the expectations of the client are in line with reality. It works out for both parties as it saves time for both the client and the artist.
For example, I can go into a negotiation knowing that the price will be somewhere between $1500-$3000, and then talk it over only to find out the client was only expecting to pay $300. This wastes my time and it has also wasted the clients time.
Given that time is money, it is common practice to pass on jobs where the client is unwilling to give a ballpark figure of what the job is worth. If a client is not 'in the neighborhood' of the true cost, then the client is probably not serious about the job and is it is not worth pursuing further.
The 'business' end of freelance can take up 30-40% of your time, it doesn't pay to pursue leads where the client in unwilling to be upfront about it.
It may cost jobs now and then, but in the long run it all works out.
You may have run a software company, but I think you need to educate yourself on the standards and norms of the freelance art field before trying to 'educate' us on professionalism.
Also, with respect to your opinion, you should not assume that all of the people on this board are not working or cannot find work or that those that responded unfavorably to you are unable to estimate jobs.
It is not that they can't estimate, it is that they will not give estimates to clients they have considered to be unqualified.
I suspect that you are more in need of an artist than the artists here are in need of money or in need of advice on how to make a living as an artist.
If you would like to discuss this further, you can contact me privately.
Joe
11/07/2001 (5:07 pm)
Andy,I understand that this is a rant, and I am taking this into account as I reply to this. Please regard this as an honest attempt to reach you and allow you to understand the behavior of the people you have dismissed as unprofessional.
Respectfully, this behavior is part of what is called 'qualifying the client'.
Freelance artists tend to work on piece by piece basis for several clients. Often times, a great deal of time is spent dealing with the particulars of a job only to find out that the client is only 'tire kicking' (getting an estimate) or that the client does not have ability to pay or has unreasonable expectations of what the job is worth.
Particularly here on these boards, you have no idea who you are dealing with. It could be a ten year old kid, it could be Bill Gates using an alias.
It is fairly standard practice in the freelance art field to ask upfront what the job entails and the presumed budget for the project. It saves time and is considered to be professional behavior.
This process allows the artist to 'qualify' the client and see if the expectations of the client are in line with reality. It works out for both parties as it saves time for both the client and the artist.
For example, I can go into a negotiation knowing that the price will be somewhere between $1500-$3000, and then talk it over only to find out the client was only expecting to pay $300. This wastes my time and it has also wasted the clients time.
Given that time is money, it is common practice to pass on jobs where the client is unwilling to give a ballpark figure of what the job is worth. If a client is not 'in the neighborhood' of the true cost, then the client is probably not serious about the job and is it is not worth pursuing further.
The 'business' end of freelance can take up 30-40% of your time, it doesn't pay to pursue leads where the client in unwilling to be upfront about it.
It may cost jobs now and then, but in the long run it all works out.
You may have run a software company, but I think you need to educate yourself on the standards and norms of the freelance art field before trying to 'educate' us on professionalism.
Also, with respect to your opinion, you should not assume that all of the people on this board are not working or cannot find work or that those that responded unfavorably to you are unable to estimate jobs.
It is not that they can't estimate, it is that they will not give estimates to clients they have considered to be unqualified.
I suspect that you are more in need of an artist than the artists here are in need of money or in need of advice on how to make a living as an artist.
If you would like to discuss this further, you can contact me privately.
Joe
#11
I don't want this to turn into a flame it's just that in my previous experience of hiring artists to do freelance work I have used services such as eLance.com and found the bidding/tender option to have worked best.
I understand where you are coming from in the 'can't afford to waste the time approach' when dealing with clients who have no intention of hiring an artist but are merely testing the water. I was just looking for an artist who was more familiar with TGE before using a more traditional contracting/recruiting service.
As for your point about me needing an artist more than an artist needing my money, that's great, it's good to see that people on this board don't need the work or are too busy on their own projects to take on extra work. I was just offering an opportunity to those who wanted it.
Anyway, enough of this now. It's counter productive. Let's all just get on and develop some cracking games :-)
Andy
11/07/2001 (5:26 pm)
Joe,I don't want this to turn into a flame it's just that in my previous experience of hiring artists to do freelance work I have used services such as eLance.com and found the bidding/tender option to have worked best.
I understand where you are coming from in the 'can't afford to waste the time approach' when dealing with clients who have no intention of hiring an artist but are merely testing the water. I was just looking for an artist who was more familiar with TGE before using a more traditional contracting/recruiting service.
As for your point about me needing an artist more than an artist needing my money, that's great, it's good to see that people on this board don't need the work or are too busy on their own projects to take on extra work. I was just offering an opportunity to those who wanted it.
Anyway, enough of this now. It's counter productive. Let's all just get on and develop some cracking games :-)
Andy
#12
of course the UVing and skinning will likely ad 6-8 hours to that...which is why I asked him exactly what he'd expect for his cash.
It all depends how many models you need doing...I personnaly would take on a project where 10 models needed doing over a month or so...thats $1000 extra pocket money...and could easily fit around a 'day job'.
Sure...if it was a published games company it would be a diferent story - but I'd be presuming that there'd be some kind of 'royalties' gig with a GG project anyway.
11/08/2001 (7:43 am)
18 hours for a model minus textures seems a little steep, a normal humanoid character model (minus textures and UV coords) can take as little as 4 hours (with a decent front/side view for referance)...then an hour for rigging. - thats $20 an hour...which aint bad for a side project.of course the UVing and skinning will likely ad 6-8 hours to that...which is why I asked him exactly what he'd expect for his cash.
It all depends how many models you need doing...I personnaly would take on a project where 10 models needed doing over a month or so...thats $1000 extra pocket money...and could easily fit around a 'day job'.
Sure...if it was a published games company it would be a diferent story - but I'd be presuming that there'd be some kind of 'royalties' gig with a GG project anyway.
#13
11/08/2001 (8:17 am)
4 hours for one modle LOL I bet they look it too . . . .modles especially for TGE can have up to 2400 faces I don't comprehend that you can actually shape and give decent volume to a humaniod modle in that time. Getting a design worthy of transfering to 3d is about 4 hours of work in it self. If you look at profesional artist's sites Like Paul Reed www.loonygames.com/content/1.13/totb/ he needs at least 6 hours to make the modle in that tutorial. Not to say it couldn't be done. I just doubt that the modle is worth anything.
#14
11/08/2001 (8:22 am)
doh strike that . . .
#15
Though your right 4 hours does sound a "little" short for a fully optimised model.
11/08/2001 (8:43 am)
Ehhh that's Paul Steed =O) sorry no offence intended.Though your right 4 hours does sound a "little" short for a fully optimised model.
#16
11/08/2001 (9:58 am)
I dont mean to be rude here...but I am a proffesional artist...and thats how long it takes (I said 'as little as' - sure it can take longer...but never realy more than 7 - 8 hours) - and thats WITH decent side/front view referances (ie the design is done) - most others I know that work within games are producing models in about these times too - maybe you need to practice a little more.
#17
-If you arent a pro and its gonna take you a long time to make a model - then think of it as getting $100 while you practice getting faster.
-If you are a pro looking to take part in an indie project then the $100 is just an extra bit of cash anyway.
$100 is cool for a model thats already designed,with no textures and no anims - once you start talking textures and animations too then you realy are going to have to push those prices up...either that or just go with new people that need a break and accept that you arent going to get the best models in town.
11/08/2001 (11:21 am)
anyway - aside from everything else:-If you arent a pro and its gonna take you a long time to make a model - then think of it as getting $100 while you practice getting faster.
-If you are a pro looking to take part in an indie project then the $100 is just an extra bit of cash anyway.
$100 is cool for a model thats already designed,with no textures and no anims - once you start talking textures and animations too then you realy are going to have to push those prices up...either that or just go with new people that need a break and accept that you arent going to get the best models in town.
#18
11/08/2001 (12:57 pm)
well you are probably right Etienne, it's just that it sounds so incredibly fast to me, than again i'm not an professional. Didn't mean to offend it just with human models i find my self going over and over it tweaking just to give it the right look, i could never do that in 5 or 6 hours. I usually put it away for a day or 2 and than take a new look and see if i still like it.
#19
Unfortunately proffesional work usually needs to be done as quikly as possible...if your lucky a full time job may give you a week or so to develope a character - maybe even a few weeks for a main character...but 75% of the time you will need to produce good looking characters ASAP.
11/08/2001 (2:05 pm)
Of course there is always more you can do to a character - you can spend weeks getting it *just so* if you have the chance...but you will be lucky to find any kind of paying job where you get that kind of time freedom on every model you make.Unfortunately proffesional work usually needs to be done as quikly as possible...if your lucky a full time job may give you a week or so to develope a character - maybe even a few weeks for a main character...but 75% of the time you will need to produce good looking characters ASAP.
#20
Still i find 4 to 6 hours pretty fast, i don't think i can do it that fast modeling feels like ages to me, good ages though but still =O) Really couldn't say how long it would take me to make a model that (in my eye's) is acceptable. I guess i should time it next time when i start a new one and see how long it takes me even if it's just for my self.
11/08/2001 (2:46 pm)
Hmm yeah i can imagine it can be like that, can't speak from experience but it sure sounds like the comercial way =O)Still i find 4 to 6 hours pretty fast, i don't think i can do it that fast modeling feels like ages to me, good ages though but still =O) Really couldn't say how long it would take me to make a model that (in my eye's) is acceptable. I guess i should time it next time when i start a new one and see how long it takes me even if it's just for my self.
Torque 3D Owner Andy Smith