Shareware and File Formats

#1 All file formats are free and unable to be protected under US law.

However, in many cases algorithms required to parse those formats are protected by patents, etc, which has a net result of protecting the format in reality.

#2 But if one inserts a bunch of useless instructions such as NOP, XOR AX,AX, MOV AX,AX, etc. in the algorithm doesn't it become a different algorithm and therefore not infriunge on any patent laws?

#3 Nate, also, rename all the variables to "bob" "cheese" or "jam" That'll do the trick, er... maybe not.

#4 To respond to my own post I know that mp3 and bsp are not free
formats for commercial use without paying a fee to Id (bsp).
However I'm not sure if bsp could be used if compiled with the
ZHLT compiler (wich is free).

#5 I'm not talking about variables, I'm talking about assembly instructions. If a oh, say 1024 bytes, of filler instructions were used how would that not change the algorithm? Work is still being done, but through a different set of instructions. Its a lot like the IC business - processes, specific circuits, fab methods, etc. can be patented by company "X", but company "Y" can still manufacture an IC that does the exact same thing but uses different circuits, processes, etc. (although IF I remember correctly, AMD CPUs can't use Intel instructions after a certain year, but I may be wrong). Basically, there is no way to patent all variations of getting a task accomplished (or it at least seems that way) without spending an insane amount of money on research, development, and patent fees. One can't say "I have made a subroutine that does this, and these five ways I have programmed the routine are patented, but any other ways of doing it are illegal."

Just a take on the subject from a guy who hasn't been brainwashed by the university/corporate/legal system to think "in the box". Someone please correct me if I am wrong on this.

#6 That's not how patents work, Nate. The overall procedure to arrive at a result is protected, not a specific implementation of that procedure.

You need a substantially different algorithm, not just some code with a bunch of extra NOP instructions.

A good example is sorting - you couldn't patent 'sorting numbers' but you could patent all variations of a specific algorithm, like a bubble sort.

#7 Hmmm, I stand corrected, unfortunately (not because of hating being corrected, but the hinderance some aspects of the patent laws put on effiecency, monopoly prevention, etc.)

#8 Nate,

These are just my thoughts on the "hinderance" you feel.

Using your logic someone could legally take your program, throw in a bunch of unneeded instructions and maybe change a splash screen or two and make as many copies or even sell it as their "own" game. Or maybe take a model of yours and tweek the textures. Then it wouldn't be the same model right?

Although you might think these laws are a "hinderance" they are how programmers, developers and companies get a return on their investment for a good idea. I for one like getting paid for the programs or the patents I might have/make. Believe me its not enough to pay the bills forever or even this month. I still have to work, but it makes the work pay enough for me to be able to keep doing it.

Just my thoughts from another side of the coin.

I am not trying to start any sort of flame war. You feel different and I am ok with that. Just thought I might be able to provide a different perspective.

#9 ZHLT are only free for non-commercial use. I still haven't been able to get a straight answer from their developer on commercial usage so beware.

#10 This thread has got me thinking. There probally are many formats I take for granted as "I can use that" Is there a pretty list somewhere of what formats are "free" to use for comercial use and which ones are not? And of the ones that are not, what one must do to get "permission"?

Seems a list like this would be vary valuable to the indies out there.

#11 Off the top of my head, mp3 is the only one I can think of that a game developer would be interested in.

You can find out about licensing at www.mp3licensing.com/. Or just use a library that's bought the license for you.

#12 Ogg is about the same as mp3 and is free.

I used Ogg Vorbis music in a game in a made and the one I'm working on. I used the JOrbis library at http://www.jcraft.com/jorbis/ . Coincidentally, JOrbis uses ANOTHER free library called jogg, but jogg is a little complicated.

JOrbis is for Java only. If you're using Java, I can send you code that uses JOrbis. Their example code was very confusing, but I eventually managed whittle it down to the stuff that actually matters.

#13 Really, file formats aren't a very big deal. If you need to store data, you can use XML or just roll your own format (ie... write all the data you need sequentially to the file). Compression algorithms are very handy - like PNG, JPEG, MP3, OGG, etc. - and difficult to replace. Thankfully, most of them are free for use, or it's easy to "make" them free (for instance, using an LZW-derivative instead of directly implementing support for .ZIP files).