Child Safe & Solo Play

#21 Complaining about it isn't solving the problem, and neither is clogging up developers inboxes with screenshots and the like. I think everyone is now fully aware of the problems caused by a minority of the players. Emailing the distribution channels will, if anything, probably only hurt the game further as they may be less willing to have anything to do with it and simply take the easiest option of ditching it - who knows. Also, no one is trying to protect the very few sick perverts.

The hard part is finding a solution that can be integrated into the game. Automatically transmitting a bar of soap into the mouths of those spouting foul language is simply not possible.

The Child-Filter IS one solution and to be honest, if it is activated from the very beginning, you wouldn't be missing anything as you wouldn't be aware of missing out on chat. You can only miss what you previously

Also any possible solutions not only need to be implemented, but need to be thoroughly tested and this can only be done on servers that the developers actually have access to.

If you like, and as a test, I can set up a basic filter system for all the PlanetThinkTanks servers - blanking out offensive words. It might server as a decent test although I suspect that those intent on ruining the fun for everyone else will find a way around such filters.

If you would like me to do this, then please email me a list of words you would consider offensive and I'll take a look at implementing it as a trial. (foulmouths@planetthinktanks.com) There are bound to be words that I might forget to add, so the more contributors, the better.

-Z-

#22 "Z" I read your previous post on getting around the words filter. It makes a lot of sense. Besides the point is not so much to filter out the basic curse words that can sometimes be used in a harmless way than to prevent wicked descriptive sexual behavior and flagrant abuse and insluts.

Again you praise the child safe filter. At 39 years old, should I use it too if I don't want to be exposed to a lowlife sicko telling me about my 7 year old daughter's gang bang experience and her porn career ? Or should I just get used to it ? You tell me.

I'm sorry guys, but you're missing the point even though you keep writing that you supposedly understand. And you seem to be taking the issue rather lightly when I think, and I'm not the only one, that it is a very serious matter. Don't let a very tiny minority hijack this game.

#23 Man, there are about 4 threads on this topic. I need to start reading all news before I post in one. I'll summarize:

I want a "Mute Player" function.

That would solve 90% of the problem. I want it to be able to mute a player based on his registration code so that he/she can be muted in any future games I play. There are too many problems with server-based black-lists, voting out players, filters and what have you. Just let me silence the people that annoy me.

#24 Yes, macr0t0r, that would be great! It kept chat-able games like InkLink fun even in the presence of crude players.

We, essentially, are the village and each of us has a responsibility to contribute to the "raising of TT", so to speak. So, not only will I continue to discourage foul behavior and praise those that play nice, but I will also be heading back over to PayPal to help give these guys the support they need to keep this going (Joe, etc. - do you guys have a link or something set up similar to what -Z- has for PlanetThinkTanks?).

For now, please use the filters that are in place, thank you for the feed back, and with your support we'll all get a better game with each new development (it certainly has grown since I started playing in August!).

Ge0rge

#25

Quote:Why be so negative ? If the distribution channels are really key in all attempts to get an improvement on this issue, why not at least try to contact them before assuming that they'll be reluctant to even look into the matter.

I am sorry if I was not clear. Our agreements with the distribution channel prevent us from sending out any sort of announcement to players, giving them any any link, or contacting them in any way. We do not have access to the players registration info, and we do not have a way to track it. You are suggesting we send out messages, and my response is, We cannot. Our distribution agreements forbid it. I am not being negative. I am stating that there are certain things that cannot be done for either technical or business reasons.

Quote:What comes out of it is that Brave Tree is powerless on this matter.

I will be more clear. This is true. We cannot kill accounts directly. We would have to contact the ditribution channel, and at this point in time, we have no way of tracking who has what build from what channel.

Additionally, if we did kill someones account, we cannot prevent them from playing as a demo as using chat, or using another account (buying another copy). We cannot block an IP. We do not have direct access to all the servers, so even if we did set up a system where we could 'block' people server side, we would have difficulty administrating it (as we do not have access to to all servers).

I understand your concern, but you are asking for us to do a lot of work that will have very little impact on the problem.

We are doing something. Ignore functionality will hopefull be working and part of the 1.2 release. We will consider a client side word filter, and this may block out a few of the common 'bad' words, but it will not prevent foul content from coming across.

We are working to improve the game. I posted to point out that there is not a simple solution to this problem. When we make changes, we need to make them, test them on three platforms on multiple ditribution channels, and then deploy them. It takes time, and we have limited resources, so we are have to take our time, fix the problem, and then deploy the updates.

This and many other threads are calling for immediate action and offering solutions, many of which are not feasible.

We are on the side of the concerned parents. We are doing what we can, and we do not want to penalize anyone for being a child. I want to reiterate, we have worked on mulitplayer games before, this is always a problem, there is no real solution to the problem that will solve all your concerns, and we did address this issue in the first release of the game by including a child filter.

I want to reiterate, we are not siding with the perverts. We cannot stop people from talking unless we disable chat altogether.

#26 @ macr0t0r
I want a "Mute Player" function.

This is really the only solution.

@stan
I don't want to be exposed to a lowlife sicko telling me about my 7 year old daughter's gang bang experience and her porn career
While I agree that this is not proper for a game of TT where does
the line get drawn? who gets to draw it? The answer is not to
restrict those that do, but filter them out. Individual mute
or ignore would achive this. You can set your own level of
interaction. As I mentioned in another post feedback to the
player in the form of "You have been ignored by ..." would
help get the message across. Eventually they would either get
bored with every one ignoring them or they could continue to
rant to thier hearts content. Some people may actually enjoy
that kind of interaction, it's not for me or you to decide, but
we do need to have the option to not participate. Bravetree did
the right thing by offering the child safe filter there is no
reason to scold or berate them for the way it is implimented.
What we are requesting is a refinement which they are not
obligated to provide (economics aside). In the end you have
the ultimate filter (off switch).

Him
Father of two promising TTers

#27 @Joe.

Kudos to you and BraveTree for reading and responding. It would be very easy to be uninvolved or unconcerned...you are neither. We all enjoy the game and appreciate the attention.

#28 @44,

I try, as much as I can, to keep up with what is goign on the in forums and the community. When the game first launched, I used to read everything, but this is no longer possible (unless this was the only thing I did every day)

Thanks for the kind words, we are doign what we can. Again, for those that don't know about BraveTree, you can read this thread

#29 @Bill

I get your point where you want to leave it up to the individual to assess his own borderline on insanity.

I respect each individual right to do as he pleases, but in a public place one must conform to a certain standard. (ie: I have nothing against nude beaches, nonetheless yu cant take off your bathing suit just anywhere).

Please note also that talking dirty to a kid or verbal violence against a parent is not assimilated to an individual choice of life to me.

Again. I am not recommending that Brave Tree adjust to my own level of admissibility. I am just hell bent on weeding out the flagrant chocking obcenity that every decent human being understands without effort.

Am I clear ?

@Joe
44 is right though. At least you're responding. I'm sorry to be pain on this issue, but I feel that this is one of the most important issues to be sorted out. And trust me I'm not a fanatic. I couldn't care less if I or my daughter reads an occasional "shit" or "bastard". Used appropriately it can be funny. My next step is to send you Joe the screen shots. Maybe it'll have an effect on you that abstract language does not. Please work with these damn distribution channels to find a solution together. I'm sure they'll be glad that you want to address the issue and help out too. If you don't try you'll never know. I understand that you're a small company. We, players can try to raise some money and help out financially if needed. I'll be there.

Concrete solutions:
The word filter is a waste of time since as you say it the problem is to get rid of foul content,not "bad" words. Don't spend your limited resources on a solution that does not address the issue. Besides there are other ways to write a word. Don't even look into this.

I really think that the best way would be to remove the chatting ability on the registration # from which the offensive language came from. If there's more than one party involved in order to achieve this, so be it. Get together.

Yes they can buy an other copy of the game but I doubt that someone will want to buy one every day. If they do, your sales will increase and we won't have to pitch in then. lol.

Demos: Suppress the chatting ability on demos. period.

#30 Time for me to but in, and throw some bark on the fire.

A mute player function would not be a good idea. We would be getting people muted by others for no apparent reason. I believe that most people are honest people, but there are the wierdos out there who would just mute everyone.
I know, you could just leave the server. But what if you enjoyed that server? You all know the answer.

What about a "Report Player" function. Here is how it would work. The server logs the chat only temporarily. If someone is swearing or being abusive, you can send a report to Bravetree, or appointed moderators. The temporary chat log of that game is sent to BT, or appointed moderators, along with the person in questions's IP address. How does that sound? BT (or appointed moderators) can then take the appropiate action. Not everyone would agree to IP sending, so that would have to be added to the EULA, and buyers would need to agree.

Suppressing demo's chat is somewhat a good idea, but what about the civilized demos, that cannot purchace the game, for some other reason. Plain and simple, not a good idea.

Word filters are are like putting a wooden fence around a maximum security prison. It will stop the odd few, but determined people will get through.


Now for my suggestions. What about different levels of Child Safe Filters? Choose from Block All, Block Names, Block Chat, Block Server Names, Block Chat and Server names, block Chat and Player names, and other possible combos. (I don't think I need to list them all)

Wall of Shames, Black Lists, ect are all a good idea. I think there is not any way to stop this. There are ways to slow it down, not stop.


There is my bark on this ever-burning fire.

#31 I want to be ultra clear on this.

Tying a persons name to a reg# will not work. We do not have access to their registration accounts and the multiple distribution channels are not going to give us access to them. They have privacy policies which prevent them from doing so, and even if they wanted to, they are not going to do this.

Additionally, all of these distibutors have a different Digital Rights Management solution (know as a DRM). In order to protect their ability to make money (prevent piracy), they do not release the source to these solutiuons.

Do you want your bank to be sending us your credit card #? Do you want them to send us the code so we can get your credit card # ourselves? This is pretty much what the situation is.

I don't want to argue with anyone about this. This particualr idea is not going to work no matter how nice it would be if it did. No amount of talking to anyone anywhere is going to get them to let us poke around in their customer base or their Authentication Servers or DRM solution.

Without going really deep into it and publicly releasing a bunch of info I really can't legally release, it is not going to happen. Good idea.. it is not going to work. Think of something else... We are open to suggestion, and we don't claim to have all the answers, but this particular one is moving into the Dead Horse corral.

Possibilities:

I suppose one could add a back end server check and create a unique ID for each install of thinktanks (using the machine ID) and tie that to a registered name in the game, but this would require a good bit of work. Note that this would be akin to a double DRM solution, where we surrepisitiously register your machine with our own authentication. We would have to get a authentication server of our own to handle the name authentication. We would then have to create tools to manage all of this banning and logging and filtering and whatever..

What would this be? Client side blocking or certain people? Server side message banning? Account deletion? Playing but not chatting? Who decides who gets banned?

Note that this would require some work to do, force everyone to upgrade, on all distribution channels, force a server upgrade that is not backward compatible (Shockwave.com is concerend that we not break backward compatability).

Note that our biggest support issue (95%) is DRM related. People are having trouble accessing authentication servers due to hardware and software firewalls. This is itself is an obstacle to sales, and we are reluctant to add yet another layer of security (and increase support in doing so) while decreasing sales (probable outcome of adding another layer).

Please try to understand that we are reluctant to throw a lot of time an energy at a solution that is very hard to do, has a ton of problems, really is not going to make a huge difference in sales, is going to increase support costs, and all this when we have a solution that works (child filter).

You don't like the solution, and that I understand, but it is there, and it is there for this purpose.

Now, all of that being said.. I understand where Stan is coming from. I would love to be free from the shackles of all distribution channels, have enough resources to set up a really elegant and secure system that works as people intend. I do not. I have a family. I need to take care of them and in order to do that I need to sell software. We want to grow, and we want to deleiver great games that people enjoy, but we cannot do everything the communituy asks .. even if we would like to.

We do not have unlimited resources and we do have legal agreements with the distribution channels.

If everyone wants us to continue to expand and improve, then helps us to extend our user base. The more sales we get, the more resources we can devote to making the game better.

We would certainly welcome all dontations or help. Maybe ThinkTanks should go subscription based?

#32 @Joe
Your explanation makes sense and is crystal clear. Looks to me like Bravetree would like to solve the abusive language problems, is open to suggestions but faces some significant obstacles.

@All
I'd recommend we all trust that Bravetree is working on this, offer suggestions when possible and most of all, be understanding that this is a challenging problem to solve...one that may simply be an inherent downside of chat functionality.

For now -- and with no disrespect to any of the players taking issue -- I think we should concentrate on making it less rewarding for the abusers (e.g. do not respond to their comments or "fuel the fire", avoid cooperative play with abusers...basically try to make the game less enjoyable for those who get pleasure from riling others). If this doesn't work, you may have to make some hard choices about what you choose to remain exposed to. For me, the [Esc] key, followed by "Leave Game" -- although not ideal -- ends the problem. I understand this punishes the offended, not the offender, and isn't "fair"...but sometimes, that's the way it goes. Fortunately, my experience has shown that you are far more likely to join a good game, sans idiots...than a bad game.

@Joe
Although I'd pay a subscription fee to keep playing online, I think the timing is bad and would be a pound-foolish initiative (at least in the near-term). If I were a stake-holder, I'd find a system for rewarding referrals (even it was simply community recognition, etc.) and continue to work on getting good game reviews and greater visibility on download sites.

#33 Yep, /ignore idea is cool, but as i guess, it is supposed to be like
this:

/ignore KICK @SS

for instance. However, what about names like:

ª¡ø§¨©?ßß?µç?æ

Even for me it will take some time to retype all that exactly as it is, but what about
children or those players who dont know how to type that? As I know (but never
tried because I ve got Mac) on PC its possible to create name by copying symbols
from Word. This enables to create names which cannot be typed from
keyboard; I cant type, say, Euro symbol while playing.

#34 @Joe
The analogy with the credit card suits me fine. True the CC info is not communicated to the mechant and there are various parties involved (CC Company, Bank, Merchant). However, the system allows for the prosecution in matters of fraud and blocks the CC very quicly when lost or stolen.

Apparently, what were having here is non cooperation from the parties due to their unwilligness to share info. That reminds me of the blaming of the 9/11 on the rivalry between the enforcement agencies.

This has become the heart of the problem. Issues have become unsolvable because of this and this is what needs fixing then.

Until you decide to cooperate in the manner that Credit Cards function all of our solutions will be a make shift for a basic inadequacy.

I don't want to give any bad ideas to anyone, but if I wanted to sink this game, now I know how..

JOE, I don't agree when you assess that this is not a device that will make a difference in sales. Air marshalls and thorough searches at airports don't increase sales either but not having them will have no one flying.

As the game becomes more popular, there will be more INACCEPTABLE behavior on TT. Sooner or later the Distributing Channels will be aware of it and reviews will mention what's going on.

For not having considered a cooperation in matters of canceling chat or licences, you have become a refuge for foul mouthed wicked people who now know that they are safe to throw their garbage online in a game that has many children playing. Brave tree and the players can bark but they can't bite. Congratulations!

For now it's just us, the players, who are being taken hostages and asked to walk around gagged and blind folded just in order to pretend we have a solution. Tomorrow it may be Brave Tree when the word gets around.

PS: The game in itself is probably the best game ever. Sincere congratulations here! I think the subscription is a good idea. $9.95 seems a good price for a year. I don't think it will hurt sales. Most people will buy the game just the same and figure they have a year to determine if it's worth renewing to them. Do it. Get some money and fix the problem at the root. Don't try to put a band aid on a cancer sore.

PSS: Tell me how to donate.

#35 Yes Killer77. The "Ignore/mute" doesn't address the problem. The ones that shouldn't be allowed to chat will still send out their garbage online. We will still read their first obcenities in each game they enter. And the children will not recognize most of it as obcenity and will just reply: "What is this or what is that" the nut case will have a ball answering questions like that.

Lets make it clear: If I hadn't been here, my daughter was about to type "ALT, WHAT IS ANAL?" so instead she asked me!
And from what was reported to me a couple of days later a 9 yr old girl was about to ask "What's being ganged ?"

IS THIS ACCEPTABLE GOD DAMN IT

All your solutions don't address the problem. We need to shut up the offender. Once we are able to do that, there will be:
1 - a deterrent
2 - a real way to shut them up if they would not be deterred

#36 Pls see my long-winded post under 'ban )(oosane' thread

#37 Ust wanna say that 'ignore' script works !.


LAG MAN, THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#38 I wil be using childsafe mode ok

#39 @Stan
I doubt BraveTree is taking this lightly, since seeing vulgar behavior in Demo Mode could mean a lost sale. The problem is that Think Tanks is really an extension of the unregulated, anonymous beast called the internet. I have yet to see a "clean" chat system that a jerk hasn't invaded. With a 9-yr old daughter, I would seriously consider the Child Safe filter to disable the chat system. Otherwise, it's like having Cable with all the channels. Sometimes the parent just has to be present to keep things clean. I got on the internet back when BBS systems were the default and Netscape was a dream, and already got immersed into the sewage they spew at an early age, and it hasn't gotten any better over the years.

There is no "real way to shut them up." The only games without this problem are those without chat or games strictly geared towards kids.

If ThinkTanks used a subscription service, maybe they could afford a moderator on a couple "kid-safe" servers where they can kick out the trouble-makers. The Child-Safe feature would allow chat on those servers. I think the solution will have to be a human-minded police-style solution. Right now, though, they can't afford someone who does nothing but monitor chat traffic and kick people 24/7.

#40 @Joe
What about using the idea of the "double DRM" to also implement the name registration. You could offer this for an additional fee and would include access to "protected" servers and perks like more maps or tanks personalized skins and such. This way you can create some sort of revenue stream to help offset the development cost. This way the die hard fans or concerned parents could take the game to another level.
@at large
The ignore function needs to be only related to you and your choice of people to ignore. I agree that it needs to easy to implement (i.e. click on tank name) but that likely means interface changes. Perhaps the ignore option could also be triggered by word recognition. I think the list should be perpetual so that known
offenders are always ignored. Name based ignoring should work fairly well with no ip or other data needed. Any player determined enough to constantly change their name would spend just as much
time trying to get past any other scheme. Feedback to the player being ignored that they are being ignored will also help curb that behavior. As far suppressing Demo chat goes, NO WAY!!! These are the future TT community for better or worse. Demos need be able to feel like they can join and be a part of a community or they will just leave.
I am adamantly against banning or booting players. In the end this never works. In my time playing TT (since it was released) I have seen a lot of players go from most hated to well respected. The reason is that they wanted to be a part of the community we have created. I believe that is why the various leagues are so important. They give TT depth, after all you can’t join if no will let you.
In the mean time BT has provided an option. The child safe filter may not be perfect but it’s an option that solves the issue in very efficient manner. I believe that it is safe to say the BT is looking to address this issue.

Him