The end of 2003 and still nothing really done

#21 Crispy, crunchy, flamebait... this thread hasn't got a chance...

#22 Accidental post

#23 Actually torque is good for me as a individual on a lot of levels.

As I learn a bit more programming I see little things open up to me when I go through the code. And I understand what kind of effort that somebody puts into a freebie that makes torque a bit better.

I also know that by the time I wait until a new feature or asset comes along I would or could have about a year worth of learning C++ under my hood and its not necessarily a bad thing but a good thing. I want to know how to program, I want to be able know how torque works.

You cant get that with engine-in-a-box. and if I'm paying over 10K for a game engine. I expect to drop my game idea into the box pull a Dr. Seuss lever and out pop my game. :))

John H.

#24 Then stop reading it if it bothers you Josh.
I mean at least now I know that accoarding to Jeff they are investigating adding Maya support officially now. so something good has come from this.

I'm not raggin' the torque Just some issues I have. I love Torque and GarageGames, I just felt like bringing the things I have issue with.

Last time I checked this is a community. And last time I checked GG inc. is a company located in the US. Wich means I'm free to say anything I want. "Without being distasteful of course." or using profanity. Which I didn't.

#25 Ok Everyone:

I'm Offically appologizing to anyone that has had or will get their feathers ruffeled by this thread.

"I'm Sorry"

Can't we all just get along?.?.? LOL


Johnny, I'm not asking for engine in a box. Hmm might have fund that seuss lever idea though. I think you might be on to something LOL.

#26

Quote:Nice trees to btw. So are you making any of the code that you have done availible back to the community?

Do you mean Resources like these?

And, I suspect there are more on the way. It takes a lot to make, test, and support them all.
Now, what have you done?

The ground is using the stockTGE bumpmapping, which I often call "embossed"-style, because I don't believe it is DOT3 (though I think it DOES now support DOT Product 3). Play with it enough and you should get some decent results.

The palm tree is thanks to the Rise of Power team. It can also be found as a resource here.

-Eric F

edit: grammar patrol

#27 @James:

I had to bite my tongue not to make a reply that took this thread down in flames. Not because of the content of your post, but because of the way it was stated. I'm not here to teach forum manners, but saying things like "the developers have been lying down for two years" won't get you any where.

You still did not directly answer my question about the engine, the type of shader support, and the cost.

Again, I'm not talking about getting a little bit of water reflection or a glow on a Tron guy that takes more horsepower than anybody has on their desktop. If and when we decide the market is ready for shaders, it will be in a meaningful manner, much like that seen in Doom III or Half Life 2.

We could have scabbed in some simple solutions long ago, but that is not the approach we are taking. In the meantime, most computers are not shipping with cards that can take advantage of the kind of shaders you are referring to. If that is a requirement of your game, then Torque will not work. Nowhere on our site have we sold the fact that we have shader support, not have we promised it.

-Jeff Tunnell GG

#28 @ Jeff

???? Never said it was promised. I was simply saying that I had not noticed any add-ons new features or tools produced by GG.

I don't understand what you mean here:

"or a glow on a Tron guy that takes more horsepower than anybody has on their desktop"

are you serious? everyone I know has a computer that can run that game like bat out of hell. If this is truely what you think I suggest getting a new computer. You seem to have a pretty poor idea of what the average gamer has in their systems these days. for the last year or 2 systems have been comming with nice and Nvidia and ATI cards. Don't get me wrong I know you have a lot of experience and have been in the industry for a long time. However I think you may have gotten a little out of touch with how far gaming hardware has come and how common it is in todays systems. Chances are that if the computer was bought "by a gamer" in the last 2 years then it should have pretty nice performance. if no one has that kind of horespower in their system I'm really currious who nvidia and ati are selling cards to and how they are staying in buisness. And and yes alot of those types of effects "glow masks and reflections" are exactly what I'm looking but as I said everyone that is doing it isn't giving them up to the community. I was simply saying that an official release of these types of effects would be nice.

#29 Bottom line is that shaders are not needed, so I dont expect the GG guys to implement them. If you dont think they have been doing anything, then how do you explain the 1.2.0 release? I mean, its right in your face! Most people do not have a fully shader compliant card, and basically, you cant afford to limit your sales as an independant developer in any way.

You say Quake 3 had shaders, but those werent shaders in the fragment (pixel) shader sense that i suspect you mean. There are many types of 'shaders'.

As has been said many a time in these hallow boards, graphics do not make a game, sure it can add to the experience, but look at some of the dev shots that are comming out now, very moody and very cool.

If you want them, you will have to pay someone to add them for you.

#30 People that buy Alienware and computers such as that are a very small part of the market. If you look at the majority of computers that are selling right now, they have FX level cards or motherboard solutions in them. These cards are not compliant with the types of shaders you are looking for.

You continue to shoot barbs. Now I'm "out of touch." I'm trying to learn how to have a thicker skin, but sometimes it is hard. All I can say is this is not helping your case at all.

I have no problem with intelligent discourse regarding our direction, but I am not going to respond to attacks and I am finished responding to this thread.

-Jeff Tunnell GG

#31

Quote:if no one has that kind of horespower in their system I'm really currious who nvidia and ati are selling cards to and how they are staying in buisness.

As a matter of fact NVIDIA makes the majority of their profit selling the lower end video cards, not the higher end. This is how they are staying in business.

#32 Np James :)

Most of my comments Iam just speaking (thinking) out loud. They are not directed to anyone or anything. :))

"John slinks backs into the Lurker Status shadows Now" ")

John H

#33 I am in agreement with Jeff on the highend gamers are a small part of the market. I know a few people who have what James is talking about, but generally they are too busy playing that 1 game they got their system decked out for (EQ seems to be a driver) But GG games could add it as an option.

As I see it there are two main questions/or items brought up by this thread.

1 - Where should GG put their time?

Everyone has an idea on this. Some have said docs. That if you could bring one thing today it would be better docs. This was a fight in another thread. Shadding seems to be the one in this thread.

Personally I would like to see the different engine subtypes I have seen talked about. Instead of starting with a FPS shooter for my RPG/Puzzle game I actually start with a RPG.
Over all I am not fooling myself. GG has limited time/people and they are going to have to find the biggest bang for the group.

I would suggest a poll on the "next thing" but people have a tendency to assume whatever gets ranked the highest or whatever is on the list will arrive tomorrow. Can get the community mad at you very quickly when all your trying to do is get some feed back on what people might like.

2 - If their were extra features GG could charge more. Say 1000 bucks (10x).

I agree they "could" charge more now, although I must admit for me somewhere between 100-200 bucks it goes from a "yah I could do that" to a gee I had better really want/use it. (AKA I wouldn't buy it to try it) Especially when you look at needing a modeler, a paint program, Compilier, etc. (note this is me and not ment to be everyone - trying to avoid the "everyone isn't poor like some think" flame I must be poor. No wait married! Kind of the same thing! :) )

At a 1000 bucks a copy, not mater what the features are, I would bet the comunity support would almost be non-existant. I would also hate GG to go to the model of other Engines were the more you pay the more you get (engine wise) Seems those sites are plagued by "Gee I did this and it didn't work. Your example sucked." followed by response "You don't have the engine that supports that. Upgrade."

Just my thoughts.

#34 James, since your an artist I dont really expect you to know this but asking for "shaders" is very foolish. Shaders in all their various shapes and forms have evolved over the years on three different fronts, they're different between 3D API's (DX and OGL), graphics companies (ATI, Nvidia) have different ways of implementing them, and they've changed drasticaly over time. I wont pretend to be some kind of shader guru since I really dont know that much about them (since like everyone has said, they really arnt that crucial to indie game dev.) but the shaders in Quake III have nothing in common with the shaders in DOOM III. The shaders your probably thinking of are the new 2.0 breed which are supported in things like upper end FX cards. At the moment I dont believe (but dont quote me on this) that an FX 5200 supports either shader 2.0 or DX9. If you want meaningful shaders in your game (like Jeff said, not just sparkly water) then your looking at a $250+ graphics card. These cards are not normaly bundled in with PC's unless you get an Alienware or a dell game machine. Most people do not own these and most people who do are not interested in low budget indie games. If on the other hand you do just want sparkly water and are willing to pay a few hundred bucks for it like you said then start a thread titled "attention coders, I will pay you 400 dollars if you'll put sparkly water shaders into my torque project" and stop asking GG to do it for you, they have more then enough to worry about.

Like somebody said, everyone has thier own wish list for torque features. Mine is an easier, less error prone map2dif and maybe fixed up vehicle collision. Although Maya2dts would be pretty sweet ;)

sorry if this is a low blow, but I saw that you've been around since 2001 and you say your a skilled artist... if you havnt produced anything yet (especialy since you were around before anyone really knew what shaders were) then what makes you think you'll be able to do anything once their in? You say that being an indie doesnt mean you should half ass things, but if your really that dedicated then wheres your game?

#35 Hey everybody.

We truly want to fix everything of significance that was mentioned in this thread.

Documentation is extremely important. Now that we have a significant amount of reference docs, everybody wants tutorial and How-Tos, and we are working on many intitatives to get them.

Our FPS Starter Kit that ships with Torque is an indicator of the direction for many more starter kits. We have many things going in this area, too.

Lastly, DX-9 level shader support and more and better exporters are high on the list of needed improvements.

Part of the problem is that we have not been able to give the community a road map of improvements. There is a simple reason for that. We cannot promise any type of timeline due the amount of work we have and the few resources at our disposal.

Whether it looks like it or not to people like James, we work all the time and work very hard. We are trying to accomplish something that should have 15-20 people, not six. The insinuation that we are doing nothing, and hauling the money off to the bank really pisses me off. We are not asking for blind fan boy support, but we do feel we are helping some people. Wait, I KNOW we are helping some people because I just signed the monthly royalty checks yesterday and a month ago I saw some kick ass games at IGC that were created with Torque.

Can we do better? Absolutely. Hang in there. The kinds of things that you want fixed will happen.

-Jeff Tunnell GG

#36 ...I don't usually like to get involved in a Political Matter, who does what or should be doing whatever, according to Someone???; I have become aware of this statement: and it doesn't cause me discomfort...

"Torque will never be easy enough for a non-progarmmer to make a game."

...this is true. I am not a coder, I am an artist, and at first I felt as some others listed in this post, but by educating myself and seeking help in a courteous manner, I have discovered more and more I really like this engine...it does good stuf. I have begun scripting myself, because, hey; I realize we are ALL busy individuals who have limited time/resources, and if you want something done to your specs...do it...


thanks
Rex

#37 Jeff, you've helped tons of people (myself included) and given us all a huge opportunity. We all really appriciate your hard work and all the sacrifices you've made. It's a shame that your job involves having to deal with the vocal minority that doesnt like torque, just remember that 99% of the GG community is here because we like it and we believe in you guys and what your doing.

#38 Jeff most of us know that you guys are working your asses off. If you weren't garagegames would not be the success it is today and wouldn't be growing so fast. The only thing I can say is that you can't please everyone.

#39 Just an FYI if you missed it, James edited his first post above because "Post removed due to to many missing the point"

#40 Well some good did come out of this thread as at least not statements of intentions have been. Made I for one, am in a lot more optimistic position now. Since we can all agree that this is a community then everyone should realize that it would only stand to reason that from time to time members of a community will be become disgruntled and voice their grievances. Anyway to those that have found it offensive I apologize. I quite frankly think that the discussion has been beneficial.