Toolkit
by Kyle Carter · in General Discussion · 11/06/2003 (9:37 pm) · 5 replies
As far as tools go, does anyone have objections to using PHP/Apache and MySQL as our building blocks for web and datastore?
I'll try to get the design doc up Saturday afternoon at the latest... Many classes, and a fencing tournament, are eating my time until then. :)
I'll try to get the design doc up Saturday afternoon at the latest... Many classes, and a fencing tournament, are eating my time until then. :)
#2
As for PHP, I think that its half-bakedness is dependent more on the person programming with it.
11/07/2003 (5:21 am)
Well, if we take any care in our code, we should be able to make the system upgrade gracefully to Oracle/C++ or any sort of site technology. :)As for PHP, I think that its half-bakedness is dependent more on the person programming with it.
#3
You are right - I'm blaming the tool for the incompetence of the hand that wields it.
The reason is my background history. I've coded Perl for 6-7 years to create website backends, and have had 20 coders under me doing the same.
90% of them used the language (and ASP+PHP) wrong and totally un-maintainable because its too easy to mix it with layout, sql, and other stuff. We had to have education programs just to teach them the right way to use the tool.
One needs to be very skilled and very careful not to misuse the power of scripting languages to take shortcuts. It leads to tons of security holes in your code and unmaintainable code. Good design and coding principles still apply for a thing like php.
I've learned the hard way that a 3 (or n)-tier approach is the only way to secure your code and keep it fairly maintainable. Creating such a tiered codebase is also possible in php - just damn hard not to mix it all in a moment of weakness.
(I'm ranting - sorry)
To make up for my ranting here is a bit of weekend fun:
http://www.cenedella.com/stone/archives/000543.html
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/badgers.html
http://www.washlet.com/quicktime1.html
11/07/2003 (5:40 am)
;-)You are right - I'm blaming the tool for the incompetence of the hand that wields it.
The reason is my background history. I've coded Perl for 6-7 years to create website backends, and have had 20 coders under me doing the same.
90% of them used the language (and ASP+PHP) wrong and totally un-maintainable because its too easy to mix it with layout, sql, and other stuff. We had to have education programs just to teach them the right way to use the tool.
One needs to be very skilled and very careful not to misuse the power of scripting languages to take shortcuts. It leads to tons of security holes in your code and unmaintainable code. Good design and coding principles still apply for a thing like php.
I've learned the hard way that a 3 (or n)-tier approach is the only way to secure your code and keep it fairly maintainable. Creating such a tiered codebase is also possible in php - just damn hard not to mix it all in a moment of weakness.
(I'm ranting - sorry)
To make up for my ranting here is a bit of weekend fun:
http://www.cenedella.com/stone/archives/000543.html
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/badgers.html
http://www.washlet.com/quicktime1.html
#4
The problem with the web languages out there isn't so much the language, as the coders. I justed looked at a CMS written in PHP called Tikiwiki; the asinine bastards who wrote it initialize several hundred global variables for every page. For most of their pages they don't even use functions, let alone classes. It's an orgy of cargo cult programming. RickO's using it for a project; it runs like crap - not very surprisingly.
For my own site development, I use PHP with an n-tiered architecture... It runs fast, and the code is easy to maintain. I have the same backend library for several different "frontend" sites (forums, a hub site, a rock paper scissors game); by using Smarty for my presentation layer, and running a few layers of abstraction from the database, it makes the site code a dream to work with. It runs smooth and fast, and I have huge amounts of optimization work I could do if I have need. Haven't yet, though.
For the success of this project, we absolutely need a strong n-tiered architecture. We have a lot of good technology and skill to throw at the problem, but for the creation of survivable server application, it all comes down to disciplined coding...
11/07/2003 (8:34 am)
Amen.The problem with the web languages out there isn't so much the language, as the coders. I justed looked at a CMS written in PHP called Tikiwiki; the asinine bastards who wrote it initialize several hundred global variables for every page. For most of their pages they don't even use functions, let alone classes. It's an orgy of cargo cult programming. RickO's using it for a project; it runs like crap - not very surprisingly.
For my own site development, I use PHP with an n-tiered architecture... It runs fast, and the code is easy to maintain. I have the same backend library for several different "frontend" sites (forums, a hub site, a rock paper scissors game); by using Smarty for my presentation layer, and running a few layers of abstraction from the database, it makes the site code a dream to work with. It runs smooth and fast, and I have huge amounts of optimization work I could do if I have need. Haven't yet, though.
For the success of this project, we absolutely need a strong n-tiered architecture. We have a lot of good technology and skill to throw at the problem, but for the creation of survivable server application, it all comes down to disciplined coding...
#5
But I have nothing against using PHP/Apache/MySQL for the web and datastore.
11/07/2003 (9:17 am)
I'll have to admit... several sites I've done in PHP are... shall we say... badly coded. Again fault of the coder :)But I have nothing against using PHP/Apache/MySQL for the web and datastore.
Torque Owner Thomas \"Man of Ice\" Lund
I dont like PHP and similar half baked scripting languages myself, but they are fast, effective and tons of ppl out there know them.
Mysql is the obvious choice too. Just know its limitations.