Capture the Flag

#21 I think i was a a bit vague in my response to the scoring question above. if the name of the game is capture the flag, then the team that controls the flag the majority of the time should be the team that is victorious. I look at kill count as one thing: kill count. There's an unfortunate apple/orange scenario going on wherein we're trying to equate statistics that reflect what is going on in the game with *scoring.* at the *least,* a goal should equal 5+ kills because it REQUIRES teamwork to pull off. By emphasizing personal kills in overall team score, there's an overall devaluation of team play, not enhancement of its value.

PS___Do not artificially blur the line between team success and personal success with regard to final score.

PPS___I think we should resist tinkering *because* of rubian play in a non-league setting. you can only expect so much w/o a p/w. in effect, lessening the value of goals because of same-team thefts out of personal scoring concerns reflects the individual focus it desires to correct.

PPPS___I think i just regurgitated many of the above posters, az and such. apologies.

#22 Thank you Tally!

I can get off me CTF soapbox now. :)

PS...well put

#23 I was talking about induvidual scores, nice seeing you in the game today.

#24 There he goes playing a team game for himself. ME ME ME ME ME okay team?
This is a team game and my oppinion is that the kills you get while defending or trying to capture the flag are not important. If you want kills go to Battle mode. The object here is to get and keep the flag at all costs. How can you even pay attention to individual scores?

#25 Point taken (no pun intended), I too have been victim to the selfish teammate. Like you said Az, it's a new game and people are still learning it. In fact it's still in the development process, Right Dan? -Z-?

But if kill points counted towards total score, wouldn't that drive the selfish teammate to kill for points rather than steal the scrum from the scoring possessor? In turn, encourage teamwork?

I just think it would be better if individual points were rewarded for keeping the scrum, and kills. And the team score was a total of the combined. CTF would be like a cross between Team Scrum and Team Battlemode. Get the best of both worlds...

#26 These are all good suggestions and I will happily incorporate some kind of personal score for scoring a point with the flag. The reason I made it only show kills is twofold.

1) When it was 'scrum based' scoring, there was a LOT more team-killing. People stealing the flag from team-mates etc so that they could get the points.

2) Having battlemode scoring also helped to bring in battlemoders and not just scrum players into the game. Giving it a kind of mid-way status. A lot of people like Battlemode OR Scrum. CTF hangs in the middle here, and people from both camps can equally enjoy CTF.

In the first version of the script I actually had personal scores turned off and no points were awarded to an individual for kills/goals. This should have given complete focus to the team score, however, everyone complained that there were no team scores.

I think it needs to be more than a simple 1-1 score, as one person sitting in goal with the flag can rack up quite a high score quite easily, whereas those people defending him/her will only see their scores plumet as they are constantly attacked and killed.

The personal scores are actual very trivial in many respects however, I do appreciate that most people look at them (especially as all the in-game stats which have been recorded for the last month are still not yet viewable.

I think there is a good solution out there somewhere.. but I think it will require something fairly complex to get it right. Maybe for example, not just the flag holder gets an extra 'personal point' but all those on the same team within a certain radius from the goal (ie those defendering him) get a point as well? Perhaps you get en extra point for a kill if the person you killed was the enemy flag carrier? Perhaps you lose 2 points if you die while carrying the flag?

Please keep the ideas coming though.

-Z-

#27 Just to reiterate something..

The total team score is purely based on the number of goals scored. Kills do not make up any part of the Team Score.

-Z-

#28 Far be it from me to blow my own trumpet, but my Scrum game has got a hell of a lot better since playing a few hours of CTF :) - highly recommended for all!

Gnomie

"Je suis seulement un petit ornamente pauvre de la pelouse" or something

#29 Since the game is "Capture" the Flag, is there a way you can track steals instead of kills? Give a point for a steal from an opposing player. Take away a point for a steal from a team mate.

Just curious.

MJ

#30 Steals are too common to be counted as part of the score. In a hectic in goal battle, it happens over and over.

#31 Egads. stop the legislation.

#32 Gnomie said:
"Far be it from me to blow my own trumpet, but my Scrum game has got a hell of a lot better since playing a few hours of CTF :) - highly recommended for all!"

I've noticed that too. I was never too good at Scrum, but since playing CTF rather regularly, I seem to be much better at it. Still not good enough to hang with the big kids, but getting there... :)

Anyway, back on topic. I personally think that the total team score should be based solely on points made by holding the flag in the goal, just as it is now. Please don't change that -Z-. Of course that's just my little ol' opinion. I wouldn't mind it one bit if the game stayed exactly the way it is now, because as -Z- anbd others have mentioned here, it's a work in progress and people are still learning how to play. I forget who said it (too lazy to scroll up) but someone mentioned that early on in Scrum gmaes, lots of players were camping, but after being "asked" to stop, they eventually did. Well, OK, some people still camp but the point is, I think the game will get to a point where the greedy players will stop nursing their egos and learn to play as a team. That could be overly optomistic, but I hope not.

Still, I'm OK with anything that will enhance the team aspect of CTF. Keep up the good work -Z-!

OM

#33 What about maybe taking the kill points out of the game, then maybe that would encourage the people to play more as a team. To often you get someone sitting up on a hill somewhere picking off the smokers, then at the end of the game they type in "I win" but the team lost.

#34 Nice take OM, I agree with you on many points.

Az was the one who said it's still a work in progress, then it was repeated several times there after.

I like it the way it is now too, but I think there's room for improvement. It's just that being a scrumer (or one of the big kids as you put it) I don't usually get to much of an individual score because I usually end up being the one who sits in the green circle. Just because I'm really good at going after and getting the scrum. That's why I suggested adding those team points to the individual score.

If someone else has the scrum, I fight to defend them. In fact, my battlemode skills have improved since I started playing CTF. Still not good enough to hang with the big kids, but getting there... :)

Jinx, you said the kills you get aren't important in CTF. I have to disagree with you on that. You can get the flag without having to kill, but there's no way a team can keep it. Even the most talented driver can only keep the flag in the green circle for so long while under fire. That's why I suggested including the kill points in the total team score.

CTF is essentially a cross between Battlemode and Scrum. I think the score changes I'm suggesting would better represent that. But I could be wrong, what do you think?

By the way, I pride myself on being hard to hit. If you see me in the circle with the scrum, stay close, but stay out! I need room to move. trust me, I'm pretty good at playing "keep away". I can dodge hits and bullets and score at the same time.

#35 IF I also award players with points for holding the flag in the base, then the flag holders score will be far higher than all the defenders scores, and we will be back to the initial problem of dealing with all the glory hunters stealing the flag from their own team. Something that simple is NOT the solution.

The Team Score WILL always and only ever be based on points scored by holding the flag.

If you really want the flag points to make up a part of the personal score, then there has to be a different and more complicated system to keep it fair and avoid all the team stealing etc. Something that rewards those defending the flag bearer as well as the flag bearer him/herself.

I'll be having a play with the various scores over the next week or so, but I expect there to be much complaining and numerous questions being asked about why people are getting points for this and that. In a game, I WILL NOT be answering such questions. There is little point of me wasting my time of such chat especially when they are liable to change again in the near future.

-Z-

#36 I think it should stay how it is -Z-. I like it a lot.

#37 -Z-, I hear ya and understand what your saying. But think about it... If kill points counted towards the total team score as well as the individual, the possessor of the scrum would lose a point every time he gets killed, and who gets killed the most in CTF???

Try this... Kill points and possession points count towards both team score and individual score. Lets see what happens. If it doesn't work out, chalk it up to trial and error :-)

#38 Stealth, I don't understand what your point is clarify your logic for me/us please. Perhaps it's too circular. I still do not see a convincing reason why Z's system isn't the best system.

#39 I agree with little lawn ornament... CTF has been a great cross-trainer. My initial impression on Battlemode was just a roomfull of angry monkeys seeing who could fling more crap on one another.

But CTF showed me the joys of sniping and ambushing with flair! Unless lepoard is present - then I don't have so much flair... more like flail... and pounding of the fists on the desk... mean, cold, cruel gorilla of a battlemoder...

I can't even bring myself to correct his spelling. At least to his face. He might get mad at me and it would get worse... I know it's not wise to admit an achilles heel, but props are due. Damned kryptonite kitty!

Off to work on my battlemode skills,
Ge0rge

#40 @Stealth: The game is Capture the Flag. Team points therefore are from capturing and holding the flag. It has nothing to do with kills and shouldnt have. Kills are purely the means to an end.

@Everyone else:

The scoring system has been changed for a trial period and is as follows.

Team scores ARE ONLY affected by goals scored.

Individual Player Scores:
1 point for killing an enemy tank not carrying the flag
2 points for killing an enemy who is carrying the flag.
-1 point for a team kill
-2 points for killing a team member with the flag.
-1 point for dying/being killed.
1 point for scoring a goal
1 point for being around the goal, defending when a goal is scored.

Steals, powerups picked up, lives lost, kills, points gained for the team, enemy kills, team kills, bot kills / player kills etc etc are all logged as stats, and will be available to see online (in real-time) at some point soon.

Also now implemented is an auto-kick feature for those evil 'cyber squatters' who sit there and arent actually playing. If a player does not respawn with a few minutes, then he/she will be automatically kicked to make way for someone who does actually want to play the game.

Hopefully this will make the individual scores tally up more closely with the most active and useful team players. Any complaints with the scoring, please email them to billgates@microsoft.com ;)

-Z-