A possible way for indies to multiply their strength!
by Bryan Edds · in General Discussion · 10/27/2003 (11:55 pm) · 30 replies
I have come up with an idea that may allow all indies to organize themselves in a way that lets them increase their productivity 5-fold in the area of asset production. This is submitted for the GG community's inspection :)
The problem that many indies (including myself) have is developing the huge amount of assets necessary to make a marketable 3D video game. Now, there are ways to attain assets outside of creating them yourself or with your team, such as purchasing them online at places like turbosquid.com, but this method is still problematic. The problem with purchasing assets is 2-fold -
1) The assets available for purchase are often low-quality, of an inconsistent poly count (10,000 polygon sword? pretty, but unusable!), and the fact that many of the good assets have been used in many other games.
2) Indies don't really have the money they need to buy all the assets for their game in the first place, even if there were enough quality assets available. Being an indie means (for most of us) being perpetually broke, making asset purchasing impractical.
These things and many others make asset purchasing an unrealistic solution to many indies, including myself. Of course, using a team to create all the assets is lovely on paper, but is plagued with managerial overhead, especially with long-distance teams. Fortunately, I have thought of a simple, elegant system to address these problems. I looked at the fact that most indies don't have money to spend - and saw a way to make something other than money the medium of exchange... I also looked at how few quality assets were available, and thought of a way to counter this as well, all in one simple system -
I start a website with, say, 59 quality game assets available. Instead of selling the assets in an assets pack (since game developers have no money to buy them anyway), I allow the consumer to donate 1 of his assets in exchange for 4 assets from the database. This allows the consumer to turn his 1 asset into 5, thereby quadrupling his artistic productivity! And after the exchange, the donated asset becomes available on the database, bringing the total assets available to 60. Each time a person gets assets from my database (or, more precisely, a license to use the asset) another asset is added to the database, allowing the database to keep expanding!
Of course, the asset wouldn't simply be donated, but instead the consumer will license to me the ability to license his asset to other consumers. Assets stay the property of the donator, but I am enable to license the asset to anyone else (including myself if I donate to the database).
And, as follows, not all assets would be exhanged 4 to 1. In fact, each asset would have a value rating. The higher the quality and complexity, the higher the value rating. When a consumer offers to donate his asset, he will be offered 4x as many "value points" that his donation rates in value. Thus, he can use these "value points" to license as many assets as he wants whose total value does not exceed his "value points". If he is not happy with the "value points" we offer for his asset (sometimes we will offer none if the asset is of no value), then he can simply refuse to take the deal. So basically, the customer gets "value points" by donating assets, and can spend his "value points" by licensing assets.
So, each time an indie donates an asset, he gets back approximately 4 more, and even more assets become available for other indies. Ultimately, this could multiply the productivity of an artist by 5, and create a constant influx of art to ensure that a massive amount of quality assets will eventually available to all indies with passable artistic skills.
Of course, there are a bunch of other details, but I wanted to throw this one against the GG wall and see if it would stick. Any comments, crits, or insights are welcome :)
The problem that many indies (including myself) have is developing the huge amount of assets necessary to make a marketable 3D video game. Now, there are ways to attain assets outside of creating them yourself or with your team, such as purchasing them online at places like turbosquid.com, but this method is still problematic. The problem with purchasing assets is 2-fold -
1) The assets available for purchase are often low-quality, of an inconsistent poly count (10,000 polygon sword? pretty, but unusable!), and the fact that many of the good assets have been used in many other games.
2) Indies don't really have the money they need to buy all the assets for their game in the first place, even if there were enough quality assets available. Being an indie means (for most of us) being perpetually broke, making asset purchasing impractical.
These things and many others make asset purchasing an unrealistic solution to many indies, including myself. Of course, using a team to create all the assets is lovely on paper, but is plagued with managerial overhead, especially with long-distance teams. Fortunately, I have thought of a simple, elegant system to address these problems. I looked at the fact that most indies don't have money to spend - and saw a way to make something other than money the medium of exchange... I also looked at how few quality assets were available, and thought of a way to counter this as well, all in one simple system -
I start a website with, say, 59 quality game assets available. Instead of selling the assets in an assets pack (since game developers have no money to buy them anyway), I allow the consumer to donate 1 of his assets in exchange for 4 assets from the database. This allows the consumer to turn his 1 asset into 5, thereby quadrupling his artistic productivity! And after the exchange, the donated asset becomes available on the database, bringing the total assets available to 60. Each time a person gets assets from my database (or, more precisely, a license to use the asset) another asset is added to the database, allowing the database to keep expanding!
Of course, the asset wouldn't simply be donated, but instead the consumer will license to me the ability to license his asset to other consumers. Assets stay the property of the donator, but I am enable to license the asset to anyone else (including myself if I donate to the database).
And, as follows, not all assets would be exhanged 4 to 1. In fact, each asset would have a value rating. The higher the quality and complexity, the higher the value rating. When a consumer offers to donate his asset, he will be offered 4x as many "value points" that his donation rates in value. Thus, he can use these "value points" to license as many assets as he wants whose total value does not exceed his "value points". If he is not happy with the "value points" we offer for his asset (sometimes we will offer none if the asset is of no value), then he can simply refuse to take the deal. So basically, the customer gets "value points" by donating assets, and can spend his "value points" by licensing assets.
So, each time an indie donates an asset, he gets back approximately 4 more, and even more assets become available for other indies. Ultimately, this could multiply the productivity of an artist by 5, and create a constant influx of art to ensure that a massive amount of quality assets will eventually available to all indies with passable artistic skills.
Of course, there are a bunch of other details, but I wanted to throw this one against the GG wall and see if it would stick. Any comments, crits, or insights are welcome :)
#2
10/28/2003 (12:17 am)
Game beavers! Its not only models, but also code, sound, music, models - if/when enough ppl join up its a good thing. Mind the license agreement though. You give up all your rights to the asset and transfer it into the game beaver domain. Then again thats what allows you to use the other assets in there, so its a give some, take some deal (as it should be)
#3
Looks like someone already had a similar idea! I just now looked through their assets, though, and didn't see much available (though it was of good quality :). I wonder if their low requirements of "donate 3 and get everything" is why they have so few assets? Plus, members vote on incoming assets, which may be too large of an overhead to the community. It's really cool, but I definitely disagree with some of their decisions... Especially about how they get ownership of the asset... Even so, I wonder if there is still room for my idea with them around? Hmm...
Thanks for the link!
10/28/2003 (12:26 am)
WHOA!Looks like someone already had a similar idea! I just now looked through their assets, though, and didn't see much available (though it was of good quality :). I wonder if their low requirements of "donate 3 and get everything" is why they have so few assets? Plus, members vote on incoming assets, which may be too large of an overhead to the community. It's really cool, but I definitely disagree with some of their decisions... Especially about how they get ownership of the asset... Even so, I wonder if there is still room for my idea with them around? Hmm...
Thanks for the link!
#4
But then I was at IGC and the guy who wrote the agreement for it explained some things to me.
Basically, its strict because legal issues would be a nightmare if it wasnt so.
So yeah, its strict and you give up youre rights, but thats so that you never have any comeback if you decide to take your ball home.
Phil.
10/28/2003 (12:43 am)
One thing I should point out to people, I was originally a little worried by the gamebeavers member agreement being a bit overly strict.But then I was at IGC and the guy who wrote the agreement for it explained some things to me.
Basically, its strict because legal issues would be a nightmare if it wasnt so.
So yeah, its strict and you give up youre rights, but thats so that you never have any comeback if you decide to take your ball home.
Phil.
#5
10/28/2003 (1:21 am)
And it doesnt have much content because its only really just started. Im planning on writing some code for submission.
#6
Gamebeaver just started up, so dont judge the content yet. But yes - someone has got to start the party by donating without much return (yet).
But for e.g. non-critical assets like drums, furniture, buildings etc. this is perfect. No need to waste time creating it yourself.
For your main characters/items/sounds I would still roll my own to get a different look than everyone else.
10/28/2003 (4:15 am)
I also was taken back on the license at first. But after giving it some thought I cannot see an alternative way to do this.Gamebeaver just started up, so dont judge the content yet. But yes - someone has got to start the party by donating without much return (yet).
But for e.g. non-critical assets like drums, furniture, buildings etc. this is perfect. No need to waste time creating it yourself.
For your main characters/items/sounds I would still roll my own to get a different look than everyone else.
#7
One suggestion, perhaps - to keep one's membership active, maybe you could require an extra asset donation once per year? It may not be necessary, but it is a thought.
10/28/2003 (7:10 am)
Actually, I'm a bit impressed with the amount of content there already. Sorely needed stuff. I've seen attempts at this sort of thing before, but this one looks like it has the potential to really take off.One suggestion, perhaps - to keep one's membership active, maybe you could require an extra asset donation once per year? It may not be necessary, but it is a thought.
#8
However, I probably won't use it. Most of my source code falls into one of two categories:
a) code I want to keep to myself
b) code I want to put in a tutorial to help people starting out programming games in Java
Maybe I'll submit some assets to gamebeavers later on though. It would have to be code that is general enough to be useful to other people but shouldn't be public domain for some reason. I'm not too clear on where to draw the line.
10/28/2003 (9:25 am)
I tried to find something wrong with gamebeavers, but I couldn't.However, I probably won't use it. Most of my source code falls into one of two categories:
a) code I want to keep to myself
b) code I want to put in a tutorial to help people starting out programming games in Java
Maybe I'll submit some assets to gamebeavers later on though. It would have to be code that is general enough to be useful to other people but shouldn't be public domain for some reason. I'm not too clear on where to draw the line.
#9
The models are a great idea too, give them a new texture and you have a new character - no point seeing the same face and outfit in every game.
Now to see if I can just find 3 assets other people will find useful...
10/28/2003 (9:34 am)
I think Game Beavers is worth it for the textures alone. Who wants to build all their own bricks, etc., if someone else has a good texture already?The models are a great idea too, give them a new texture and you have a new character - no point seeing the same face and outfit in every game.
Now to see if I can just find 3 assets other people will find useful...
#10
I'm not sure how useful it would be to others, either.
10/28/2003 (11:03 am)
From a code perspective, my attitude is kinda "eeenh, so what?" I'm not id software. In spite of having years of experience doing this kinda thing, I don't have the resources to spend to make sure my code is the most amazing, beautiful, incredible thing ever seen. It's not my competitive advantage.I'm not sure how useful it would be to others, either.
#11
But, I see what you guys think of game beavers, I still wonder what you think of my particular implementation? From this point, it really looks like I should talk to an IP lawyer... but of course, I have no such money to pay them...
10/28/2003 (11:28 am)
I'd have to agree with Jay - using this system for code sharing doesn't seem to be a terribly effective idea. What I'd prefer to see from the code standpoint is multiple genre code libraries that are each specially designed to expose code that is mose helpful to coding a certain genre of game.But, I see what you guys think of game beavers, I still wonder what you think of my particular implementation? From this point, it really looks like I should talk to an IP lawyer... but of course, I have no such money to pay them...
#12
Basically, you DO give you asset to them, but at the same time, you become "them." And as a shareholder, everyone owns everything.
I think that's the way he explained it at IGC.
With that explanation in writing, this becomes alot more palatable.
10/28/2003 (11:55 am)
The thing that was missing from the gamebeavers site, was the charter.Basically, you DO give you asset to them, but at the same time, you become "them." And as a shareholder, everyone owns everything.
I think that's the way he explained it at IGC.
With that explanation in writing, this becomes alot more palatable.
#13
10/28/2003 (12:48 pm)
So, you still own your asset since you become a shareholder? But what if someone attains 51% of the company? Then you no longer own anything, right? 
#14
We are also drafting up some sort of a deal that says that no one can ever acquire game beavers or if game beavers goes away all the licenses and agreemnts made by game beavers at that point in time are still in effect and honored. So if game bevaers uddenly vanaished one day you'd still have all the rights to the assets at that point in time that you had dowloaded and were using as a licensed member. IE everything on the site is still yours as of the day it vanishes.
I'd like to make it so that it never goes away or is aquired by anyone. I like the idea of athenian democracy and equal ownership for all involved for ever.
Thomas Buscalia the Game Beavers Lawyer is working on drafting something like that. As far as the charter goes we got the "certificate of incoperation" from the state of Texas back. So now it is official. The articles of incorperation state "Management of the affairs of the corporation is to be vested in the members of the corporation." And that is really open ended. But it means what it says the members rule. I'll be uploading the corporate docs so everyone can see them.
We will set up some sort of provision for voting on issues, and some sort of bylaws that state the corporation can not be taken over by an individual or other corporate entity. I also want to be sure that the company cannot accept monetary payment or donations. If it makes a dime or collects any money we have to file a tax return. The easiest thing to do is file the good old zero, and that should be in the bylaws too. Anyways we are leaning on poor old Thomas to help us with all of this.
Its all new and we have not announced it anywhere except here on Garage Games.
As far as code goes we should be setting up cvs fairly soon and it would be cool to have resources added in. We could submit resources like we do here at GG, but the submitter can actually add it to the code so we don't have to worry about recompile etc. We will have a dev, stage and prod cvs area and someone can volunteer to test and move things around. That in its self is a worthy contribution.
10/28/2003 (2:00 pm)
Hey cool! We are hoping that GB takes off. Thomas is drafting some more things for GB. And end user license and a sublicense so you can give the rights to a publisher to sell your game etc...We are also drafting up some sort of a deal that says that no one can ever acquire game beavers or if game beavers goes away all the licenses and agreemnts made by game beavers at that point in time are still in effect and honored. So if game bevaers uddenly vanaished one day you'd still have all the rights to the assets at that point in time that you had dowloaded and were using as a licensed member. IE everything on the site is still yours as of the day it vanishes.
I'd like to make it so that it never goes away or is aquired by anyone. I like the idea of athenian democracy and equal ownership for all involved for ever.
Thomas Buscalia the Game Beavers Lawyer is working on drafting something like that. As far as the charter goes we got the "certificate of incoperation" from the state of Texas back. So now it is official. The articles of incorperation state "Management of the affairs of the corporation is to be vested in the members of the corporation." And that is really open ended. But it means what it says the members rule. I'll be uploading the corporate docs so everyone can see them.
We will set up some sort of provision for voting on issues, and some sort of bylaws that state the corporation can not be taken over by an individual or other corporate entity. I also want to be sure that the company cannot accept monetary payment or donations. If it makes a dime or collects any money we have to file a tax return. The easiest thing to do is file the good old zero, and that should be in the bylaws too. Anyways we are leaning on poor old Thomas to help us with all of this.
Its all new and we have not announced it anywhere except here on Garage Games.
As far as code goes we should be setting up cvs fairly soon and it would be cool to have resources added in. We could submit resources like we do here at GG, but the submitter can actually add it to the code so we don't have to worry about recompile etc. We will have a dev, stage and prod cvs area and someone can volunteer to test and move things around. That in its self is a worthy contribution.
#15
10/28/2003 (2:12 pm)
Sounds great! Makes less work for me! But my only concern is that the asset archive will not be able to keep expanding if you can get access to everything with just 3 donations... There are a limited amount of indies in the world, which means that once every indie donates 3 assets, then there's nothing more. On the other hand, an indie's work is limitless, which means that the contribution is as well. So, I would definetely argue in favor of allowing people only to use 4 or 5 times as many assets as they donate - in order to keep the thing expanding. Otherwise, we'll run into a ceiling very soon... I wonder if I can talk to someone there to make my concerns heard?
#16
Since the corporation is managed by the members the rules could be changed by submitting it to a vote. But since we just started its kinda tricky to start changing everything. I'd like to set up some bylaws and have them voted in by the members. And then we could vote once a year or so on changes to the bylaws. That way all the mebers would know when to vote and have time to read up on all the issues to make an informed decision.
That means you can join and submit your idea and it will be submitted to a vote in the bylaws. We just have to figure out what to vote on and what should be in and then we need to pick a date and we can vote same time same place every year.
As it stands Game Beavers works as is and is perfectly legal. We'd like to tie up the loose ends on how changes are made and put some saftey nets in place so GB does not get abused by some large greedy corporation. GB is all about fighting those corporate demons and giving us little guys a chance. We are just trying to tie up some loose ends to make sure GB sticks around and does not get abused.
10/28/2003 (2:27 pm)
@Bryan, your original idea is a good one! We think along similiar lines. The whole reason we started with the 3 contributions thing was to make sure the asset base grew by 3 for every new licensed member. I didn't think the asset base would grow on its own out of the goodness of peoples hearts... but then thats what opensource is and it seems to be doing pretty well. I figure by requireing 3 assets we are that much more ahead of opensource. The only problem with doing things as a multiple is in getting Thomas to draft the legal docs for that. Since the corporation is managed by the members the rules could be changed by submitting it to a vote. But since we just started its kinda tricky to start changing everything. I'd like to set up some bylaws and have them voted in by the members. And then we could vote once a year or so on changes to the bylaws. That way all the mebers would know when to vote and have time to read up on all the issues to make an informed decision.
That means you can join and submit your idea and it will be submitted to a vote in the bylaws. We just have to figure out what to vote on and what should be in and then we need to pick a date and we can vote same time same place every year.
As it stands Game Beavers works as is and is perfectly legal. We'd like to tie up the loose ends on how changes are made and put some saftey nets in place so GB does not get abused by some large greedy corporation. GB is all about fighting those corporate demons and giving us little guys a chance. We are just trying to tie up some loose ends to make sure GB sticks around and does not get abused.
#17
When the articles of incorperation were filed I am listed as the registered agent in Texas. The registerd agent must have a mailing address and a physical location in Texas for Game Beavers to continue as a Texas corporation. That and maintaining the website are my only resposnisbilities and roles, and I'd really like to transfer that to any volunteers out there.
Game Beavers cost $25 for the corporate processing fee and $14.95 for the .com. I'm hosting the server at the moment so we have a fixed cost of $125. There really isn't much cost involved in starting or running Game Beavers. I think the biggest challenge will be keeping it up to date once we really start adding new members and assets. Also Game Beavers can be incoperated or moved to another State in the future, again subject to voting. I'm happy to be the registered agent as long as I live in Texas. If I move I'll be sure to let everyone know. Right now I collect and post all the license agreements and official docs to the site. Just so everyone is clear on this issue I dont own game beavers, the members do, and no one has any legal rights to make any changes with out the consent of the majority of the voting members.
Anyone interested in being an admin or forum moderator, or the registered agent in Texas please contact GB at mailto:admin@gamebeavers.org
10/28/2003 (2:45 pm)
@Bryan, one last thing. The only way Game Beavers could be aquired as it stands right now is that a majority of the members (51%) would have to vote in favor of being aquired. I dont like the idea of Game Beavers being aquired but I am just a member like everyone else so it is not my call. It really does have to be voted on.When the articles of incorperation were filed I am listed as the registered agent in Texas. The registerd agent must have a mailing address and a physical location in Texas for Game Beavers to continue as a Texas corporation. That and maintaining the website are my only resposnisbilities and roles, and I'd really like to transfer that to any volunteers out there.
Game Beavers cost $25 for the corporate processing fee and $14.95 for the .com. I'm hosting the server at the moment so we have a fixed cost of $125. There really isn't much cost involved in starting or running Game Beavers. I think the biggest challenge will be keeping it up to date once we really start adding new members and assets. Also Game Beavers can be incoperated or moved to another State in the future, again subject to voting. I'm happy to be the registered agent as long as I live in Texas. If I move I'll be sure to let everyone know. Right now I collect and post all the license agreements and official docs to the site. Just so everyone is clear on this issue I dont own game beavers, the members do, and no one has any legal rights to make any changes with out the consent of the majority of the voting members.
Anyone interested in being an admin or forum moderator, or the registered agent in Texas please contact GB at mailto:admin@gamebeavers.org
#18
The Game Beavers site!!!
@Trent, thanks for the compliment about the textures. I have my cartoony pack there. More on their way...
@Bryan and everybody: what the heck are you waiting for? Come on over and join!
I myself already have a successful case to tell. As a Game Beavers associate I got a very nice Rise of Power model as a start for my main character. Our team still need more modelling experience, and this model is surely a speed up. We'll change it, re-skin and learn from it. We are in contact with the other associate who posted the model, so we can ask some questions at the forums or even get some help.
It's a nice place to advertise yourself too, you are close to people who is actually making games and need assets. There is a kind of "needed asset" poll on the site, so you can ask for what you need.
Long before Britton LaRoche make it come true, I was all for sharing resources between indie projects, breaking fences as we were a big open company, a free market of game assets. I think GB is a great project and has everything to take off.
10/28/2003 (6:02 pm)
That's all great Britton, you just forgot one very important thing:The Game Beavers site!!!
@Trent, thanks for the compliment about the textures. I have my cartoony pack there. More on their way...
@Bryan and everybody: what the heck are you waiting for? Come on over and join!
I myself already have a successful case to tell. As a Game Beavers associate I got a very nice Rise of Power model as a start for my main character. Our team still need more modelling experience, and this model is surely a speed up. We'll change it, re-skin and learn from it. We are in contact with the other associate who posted the model, so we can ask some questions at the forums or even get some help.
It's a nice place to advertise yourself too, you are close to people who is actually making games and need assets. There is a kind of "needed asset" poll on the site, so you can ask for what you need.
Long before Britton LaRoche make it come true, I was all for sharing resources between indie projects, breaking fences as we were a big open company, a free market of game assets. I think GB is a great project and has everything to take off.
#19
The thing that really bothers me, though, is that the current agreement will not help the database expand as much as it could... You should only get a certain number of assets for each asset you donate to encourage people to keep donating. I know I've said this before, but I'm really concerned about it... oh well....
10/28/2003 (8:34 pm)
It is wonderful to see such a well-supported concept! I have a bunch of house and bar furniture models that I could donate... They aren't textured, but I can donate like 30 different assets if it gets me in!The thing that really bothers me, though, is that the current agreement will not help the database expand as much as it could... You should only get a certain number of assets for each asset you donate to encourage people to keep donating. I know I've said this before, but I'm really concerned about it... oh well....
#20
If nothing else, this is a GREAT way for indies to recieve attention in the mainstream game industry. If one of your assets is used in a game that makes publishment you could be a true industry veteran without dedicating 5 years of your life to a game project that may or may not be published (Duke Nukem Forever, and they mean forever, comes to mind).
Makes me happy I've saved some buildings and textures from the now defunct Sons of Valor torque project. Think anyone could use these buildings? www.planettribes.com/hosed/images/projects/SonsOfValor2.jpg
10/28/2003 (11:46 pm)
@Bryan: Most of us devs trying to make it indie are fellow comrades in our battle against the old guard. As such many will feel obligated to contribute far more then they'll ever recieve from GB. I wouldn't be worried at all about the assets database stagnating.If nothing else, this is a GREAT way for indies to recieve attention in the mainstream game industry. If one of your assets is used in a game that makes publishment you could be a true industry veteran without dedicating 5 years of your life to a game project that may or may not be published (Duke Nukem Forever, and they mean forever, comes to mind).
Makes me happy I've saved some buildings and textures from the now defunct Sons of Valor torque project. Think anyone could use these buildings? www.planettribes.com/hosed/images/projects/SonsOfValor2.jpg
Torque Owner Dylan Sale