Torque for Me?
by Michael Lee · in Torque 2D Beginner · 03/25/2013 (11:10 am) · 11 replies
I'm really loving the torque community and engines, but I'm curious how easy it is to turn a 2d game using torque into a functioning mmorpg. I've played around with other software, and they usually come with some sort of server application. Is there anything like this that is available for t2d? I'm not very experienced in programming, and I'm even worse with what's required to get a server up and running, so software that would help in this would really seal the deal for me in regards to using Torque.
Also, this engine seems to create some pretty beautiful stuff. I know the system requirements are subjective based on the game you build, but does this engine seem to come with higher system requirements than most other engines, or is it pretty frugal when it comes to using computer resources. To give a little context, I'm looking to build a game for a class at school (that is, I'm a teacher trying to use gaming as a method of teaching), so the game must be able to run on school computers. As you probably remember, school computers are pretty limited in regards to what programs they can run, so I'm a bit limited in the extent to which I can use resources when the game runs for the player.
Thoughts?
Thanks for any help!
Also, this engine seems to create some pretty beautiful stuff. I know the system requirements are subjective based on the game you build, but does this engine seem to come with higher system requirements than most other engines, or is it pretty frugal when it comes to using computer resources. To give a little context, I'm looking to build a game for a class at school (that is, I'm a teacher trying to use gaming as a method of teaching), so the game must be able to run on school computers. As you probably remember, school computers are pretty limited in regards to what programs they can run, so I'm a bit limited in the extent to which I can use resources when the game runs for the player.
Thoughts?
Thanks for any help!
#2
Again, if you only need turn-based, you are good to go. If you require more robust networking capabilities, then it will require some improvements. You can certainly add that as a feature request on our UserVoice page.
03/25/2013 (1:16 pm)
Torque 2D runs really well on older hardware, so that shouldn't be a problem. The only multiplayer available is limited TCP connection, which is really only useful for turn-based gaming. Real-time networking would require new source code changes. Whether that means porting from Torque 3D, rolling your own, or using a 3rd party like Raknet. It can certainly be done, but it would require some competent C++ programming and understanding of networking architecture.Again, if you only need turn-based, you are good to go. If you require more robust networking capabilities, then it will require some improvements. You can certainly add that as a feature request on our UserVoice page.
#3
@demolishun
Thanks for the breakdown. Like I said, I'm a noob and your info helps clarify my problems. As for the MO versus MMO, I'm trying to build a game that focuses on multiplayer gaming (3 factions versus one another) and they build levels through questing, but also through crafting. These crafting skills will allow them alternate attacks. Is this something that can be achieved through an MO, or must I use an MMO?
Also, thanks for the usb/cd suggestion.
@Michael Perry
I'm glad to hear you think it'll work on these computers. It's not even that they're old - it's that they are netbooks with low resources. I'm thinking I will download a client from someone who has used Torque to build a game, and see if that client will work on the netbooks.
I appreciate your comments about the different engines as well. Are you saying that Torque 3d has mmo-like server capabilities? I'm looking at creating a multiplayer game where three factions are warring against one another. There would have to be a lot of interaction between the different factions, so turn-based wouldn't really work for me...unless I can figure out a way to incorporate everything into a turn based game.
Thanks for the help guys! I really appreciate it!
03/25/2013 (6:46 pm)
Thanks for the help, gentlemen.@demolishun
Thanks for the breakdown. Like I said, I'm a noob and your info helps clarify my problems. As for the MO versus MMO, I'm trying to build a game that focuses on multiplayer gaming (3 factions versus one another) and they build levels through questing, but also through crafting. These crafting skills will allow them alternate attacks. Is this something that can be achieved through an MO, or must I use an MMO?
Also, thanks for the usb/cd suggestion.
@Michael Perry
I'm glad to hear you think it'll work on these computers. It's not even that they're old - it's that they are netbooks with low resources. I'm thinking I will download a client from someone who has used Torque to build a game, and see if that client will work on the netbooks.
I appreciate your comments about the different engines as well. Are you saying that Torque 3d has mmo-like server capabilities? I'm looking at creating a multiplayer game where three factions are warring against one another. There would have to be a lot of interaction between the different factions, so turn-based wouldn't really work for me...unless I can figure out a way to incorporate everything into a turn based game.
Thanks for the help guys! I really appreciate it!
#4
03/25/2013 (7:53 pm)
Only thing I can think of for netbooks is to be sure to set up the resolution in the prefs file to work on your displays - my netbook is 900x600 and the old default was too big. 
#5
I think for a class room game you could probably go with a MO with some persistent database work. It would a smaller scale MMO if you will. So you will need a server unless one of the netbooks can host a server. A server could be housed in a game engine. Just decide how many players can be in the game at once and design around that number.
Now, you don't technically need a server for this. You could have all the stats stored on a computer that hosts each game. The issue with that is it requires all participants trust the host in a peer to peer network. Would not work with a commercial game, but may be just fine for a classroom setting.
Like Michael Perry said, T2D will need modification for this. T3D can handle upwards of 50 to 100 players and can easily support many factions. I think maybe T3D will be what you want since it has networking already. Of course you need to make sure it will run on the Netbooks. It might be a bit much for them.
Another option with T3D for you is to check out the MMO Workshop. They have ready made MMO code that can work with T3D. I am not sure how mature that code is, but it is available. They wrote the MMORPG Minions of Mirth. I just checked here: www.mmoworkshop.com/trac/mom/wiki/Downloads. It looks like the T3D code may not be up to date with the current T3D. I would contact them on the forums to see if someone there is using that and they may have pointers.
BTW, MMO Workshop added Python to the engine to help them with their MMO needs. From what I can tell they used the Twisted network library to do a lot of the communication for the MMO side of things. At some point Python will be added to the T2D code base (when I do it), but it would still need some kind of real-time networking support potentially. I am not sure if Python would be up to this task or not.
Also, stay tuned to developments with T2D. It may be that someone sticks real-time networking in there and releases a patch for everyone to use. In fact I expect that to happen at some point.
I know there is a lot of maybe's, and could-be's in this post. It is just there is not necessarily an off the shelf solution for your needs just yet.
03/25/2013 (10:04 pm)
@Michael Lee,I think for a class room game you could probably go with a MO with some persistent database work. It would a smaller scale MMO if you will. So you will need a server unless one of the netbooks can host a server. A server could be housed in a game engine. Just decide how many players can be in the game at once and design around that number.
Now, you don't technically need a server for this. You could have all the stats stored on a computer that hosts each game. The issue with that is it requires all participants trust the host in a peer to peer network. Would not work with a commercial game, but may be just fine for a classroom setting.
Like Michael Perry said, T2D will need modification for this. T3D can handle upwards of 50 to 100 players and can easily support many factions. I think maybe T3D will be what you want since it has networking already. Of course you need to make sure it will run on the Netbooks. It might be a bit much for them.
Another option with T3D for you is to check out the MMO Workshop. They have ready made MMO code that can work with T3D. I am not sure how mature that code is, but it is available. They wrote the MMORPG Minions of Mirth. I just checked here: www.mmoworkshop.com/trac/mom/wiki/Downloads. It looks like the T3D code may not be up to date with the current T3D. I would contact them on the forums to see if someone there is using that and they may have pointers.
BTW, MMO Workshop added Python to the engine to help them with their MMO needs. From what I can tell they used the Twisted network library to do a lot of the communication for the MMO side of things. At some point Python will be added to the T2D code base (when I do it), but it would still need some kind of real-time networking support potentially. I am not sure if Python would be up to this task or not.
Also, stay tuned to developments with T2D. It may be that someone sticks real-time networking in there and releases a patch for everyone to use. In fact I expect that to happen at some point.
I know there is a lot of maybe's, and could-be's in this post. It is just there is not necessarily an off the shelf solution for your needs just yet.
#6
Wow, that's a lot of good information - thanks!
I suppose a better explanation of what I'm trying to do is in order. The purpose of this game is to focus on player versus player interaction. The palyers must be able to battle each other because I want to force players to work on their crafting skills in the game. The crafting system, however, is a bit different as well. With crafting, I want players to build their own spells, and once they master the art of spell building, the particular spell they build will be put onto their hotkey bar. Their crafting is basically a secondary route to building attacks.
In short, they will need to choose two classes: a crafting class and a battle class. Each will be dependent to excel in the game, and I want to focus on using these built up attacks on beating other players in the PvP interactions - in perhaps an official PvP zone or otherwise.
As far as numbers, I'm looking at 30 players at any given time. My classes aren't any bigger than this, so I would rarely have to worry about such things. I suppose at max they would increase my numbers to 40.
The T3D sounds very appealing, but I'm questioning the ability of T3D to run on these netbooks. I've included a link to the specs, and I'm thinking I will download Minions this evening to try and run that on the netbook. Do you think that's a good predictor of how well the netbooks will run T3D?
With regards to Python, I have to admit I haven't looked into it too much. I've been roaming around the internet looking at 2d engines because I didn't think any 3d engine would run on a netbook. After I test it out, I'll have a better idea. If it works out for the better, I'll start looking into Python, T3D, and engines of that nature.
Like I said, thanks for the abundance of good information!
03/26/2013 (4:16 pm)
@DemolishunWow, that's a lot of good information - thanks!
I suppose a better explanation of what I'm trying to do is in order. The purpose of this game is to focus on player versus player interaction. The palyers must be able to battle each other because I want to force players to work on their crafting skills in the game. The crafting system, however, is a bit different as well. With crafting, I want players to build their own spells, and once they master the art of spell building, the particular spell they build will be put onto their hotkey bar. Their crafting is basically a secondary route to building attacks.
In short, they will need to choose two classes: a crafting class and a battle class. Each will be dependent to excel in the game, and I want to focus on using these built up attacks on beating other players in the PvP interactions - in perhaps an official PvP zone or otherwise.
As far as numbers, I'm looking at 30 players at any given time. My classes aren't any bigger than this, so I would rarely have to worry about such things. I suppose at max they would increase my numbers to 40.
The T3D sounds very appealing, but I'm questioning the ability of T3D to run on these netbooks. I've included a link to the specs, and I'm thinking I will download Minions this evening to try and run that on the netbook. Do you think that's a good predictor of how well the netbooks will run T3D?
With regards to Python, I have to admit I haven't looked into it too much. I've been roaming around the internet looking at 2d engines because I didn't think any 3d engine would run on a netbook. After I test it out, I'll have a better idea. If it works out for the better, I'll start looking into Python, T3D, and engines of that nature.
Like I said, thanks for the abundance of good information!
#7
http://www.cnet.com/laptops/hp-mini-5102/4507-3121_7-33948074.html
03/26/2013 (4:18 pm)
Link to the netbook specs:http://www.cnet.com/laptops/hp-mini-5102/4507-3121_7-33948074.html
#8
MoM is written using TGE. TGE uses older 3D tech. So it is NOT a good test for T3D which is a shader engine. They are 2 different animals.
One thing you can do with T3D is run it very low spec. So as long as you limit your detail, models, textures it might run okay. Again it needs to be tested. It is not the number of players that will be an issue. It will be the number of models and textures being simultaneously be displayed that will slow it down. So if that is limited to low detail, and the settings set to low it might be okay. If you can get that to run that would be your best bet for a multiplayer game.
Edit:
It looks like the Mini might have 1GB or 2GB of RAM. I am not sure, but this might be shared with the video which is Intel HD 3150 I think.
Supposedly someone is able to run COD 2 and 3 on the 3150 Graphics:
www.tomshardware.com/forum/308587-33-intel-3150-game-crashes. I don't know how this compares with T3D though.
Also, here is some more detail on the HP Mini 5102 h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/13514_ca/13514_ca.PDF.
So I am guessing it will be iffy if it can run T3D unless the models and textures are really reduced. Setting it to low would be an interesting test, but I am not sure at all about the shaders. I know I had a really crappy graphics card in a machine and deleting the shaders helped. But the visuals suffered a lot. Then again, that may not matter in your case.
03/26/2013 (7:41 pm)
Python is not a game engine. It is a very rich programming environment. I only mention it because it can be useful for larger scale IT efforts.MoM is written using TGE. TGE uses older 3D tech. So it is NOT a good test for T3D which is a shader engine. They are 2 different animals.
One thing you can do with T3D is run it very low spec. So as long as you limit your detail, models, textures it might run okay. Again it needs to be tested. It is not the number of players that will be an issue. It will be the number of models and textures being simultaneously be displayed that will slow it down. So if that is limited to low detail, and the settings set to low it might be okay. If you can get that to run that would be your best bet for a multiplayer game.
Edit:
It looks like the Mini might have 1GB or 2GB of RAM. I am not sure, but this might be shared with the video which is Intel HD 3150 I think.
Supposedly someone is able to run COD 2 and 3 on the 3150 Graphics:
www.tomshardware.com/forum/308587-33-intel-3150-game-crashes. I don't know how this compares with T3D though.
Also, here is some more detail on the HP Mini 5102 h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/13514_ca/13514_ca.PDF.
So I am guessing it will be iffy if it can run T3D unless the models and textures are really reduced. Setting it to low would be an interesting test, but I am not sure at all about the shaders. I know I had a really crappy graphics card in a machine and deleting the shaders helped. But the visuals suffered a lot. Then again, that may not matter in your case.
#9
http://www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/133494/1#comment-842117
03/26/2013 (9:32 pm)
Edited: Moved to a different thread. Didn't realize there were other sections still active on the forums.http://www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/133494/1#comment-842117
#10
Thanks again, everyone!
03/27/2013 (8:17 am)
Awesome guys! Thanks a lot for everything! I think I've gotten all the information I need in regards to T2D and T3D. I'll give it a test-whirl and see what happens.Thanks again, everyone!
#11
Please make sure that you take notes and when you have some information write a blog about it here at GG. Take note of hardware specs, drivers, compiler, any special configs, etc. This data will help define what people can or cannot run the engine on in its current state. It will also help people looking to do exactly what you are doing.
In addition, if you run into any issues bring them up here (probably a new thread). People will help where they can to get you past any technical hurdles.
Can't wait to see what you find out. :)
03/27/2013 (7:01 pm)
@Michael Lee,Please make sure that you take notes and when you have some information write a blog about it here at GG. Take note of hardware specs, drivers, compiler, any special configs, etc. This data will help define what people can or cannot run the engine on in its current state. It will also help people looking to do exactly what you are doing.
In addition, if you run into any issues bring them up here (probably a new thread). People will help where they can to get you past any technical hurdles.
Can't wait to see what you find out. :)
Torque Owner Demolishun
DemolishunConsulting Rocks!
MMO != MO
That is an MMO is a (sometimes massive) server and IT effort to support upwards of hundreds of thousands to millions of users. Even though the users who interact at the same time may be less than 100.
An MO is a peer to peer game generally with little needed on the online server end. Mostly community irc and linking up to setup games.
There probably is some middle ground here, but MMOs are generally a large server effort in addition to the client (game engine).
There is some networking support in T2D, but not of the MMO flavor. I believe it is more geared toward MO type games.
If there is a question as to if T2D will run on your school systems I would download the engine, get it compiled, and make up a test copy on a USB stick or CD. Then test this on the computers it needs to run on. Otherwise it is just a guess.
If you are doing this for a class I would look for editors that support syntax highlighting for Torque Script. There is Torsion (commercial, and has a debugger), Komodo Edit, Notepad++, and I think a few others.