Why are Hackers often associated with Game lag?
by Ron Jenkins · in General Discussion · 05/22/2012 (4:44 pm) · 10 replies
In FPS online games where hack sites rent their wares to script kiddies a common complaint by legit players is "Game Lag". I have some ideas and theories but I was wondering if someone had some professional knowledge they could share and could perhaps point me to some online articles that discuss these problems?
#2
It is not the script user that has the feeling of lag but the non script users on the server. And this seems to happen when there are several script users on that same server.
Perhaps I am missing something about the way this works. But today don't the Hax sites provide a type of proxy server that interfaces between the Game Server and the client of the user? These proxies run the scripts for the user that alter and process the game metrics for the user's client.
Most also now offer a "package" that include Aimbots, Wallhacks and speedhacks. All of these alter the game metrics for the hax site user. In that there are several different sites that offer these services is it possible that a combination of issues could cause a "feel" of lag for user clients that are not running through these proxies? Could this cause the game metrics being provided to non-hack using clients to be delayed giving the "feel" of lag even though their ping remains consistent?
05/23/2012 (4:21 am)
Maybe you misunderstood what I said? It is not the script user that has the feeling of lag but the non script users on the server. And this seems to happen when there are several script users on that same server.
Perhaps I am missing something about the way this works. But today don't the Hax sites provide a type of proxy server that interfaces between the Game Server and the client of the user? These proxies run the scripts for the user that alter and process the game metrics for the user's client.
Most also now offer a "package" that include Aimbots, Wallhacks and speedhacks. All of these alter the game metrics for the hax site user. In that there are several different sites that offer these services is it possible that a combination of issues could cause a "feel" of lag for user clients that are not running through these proxies? Could this cause the game metrics being provided to non-hack using clients to be delayed giving the "feel" of lag even though their ping remains consistent?
#3
when a client hooks, for example, queryperformancecounter or timegettime or an other timer to return a custom value his game will act as if time is passing faster and so events will follow up faster
so his client may be sending character position updates faster to the server and that in turn may cause him spazzing around the map and he will appear at a new location every time the other users request the positions of the players within visible range, so at a normal interval
which means he will appear as if he is lagging
or in another scenario maybe the server broadcasts new player location as soon as it received anything and in turn maybe you receive much more bandwidth because there are more updates or having to receive and calculate positions causes cpu/gpu performance issues
and those are just random examples of the many theoretical/hypothetical possibilities
but again, i have never experienced anything like you describe with the exception that i saw people where speedhacking spazz around because their position is updated and broadcasted slower than his actual movements which makes him appear as if he is warping around
and regarding proxies:
i have made a proxy in the past that would edit the packets as required to cause a wanted effect but what those effects are and how they appear are again completely depending on the game design and how much you can mess around as there usually is atleast some level of protection
so it depends on their protocol(s) for sending and receiving data
another reason people might use proxies is simply to hide their IP so that they can avoid getting banned
because sometimes its easier to find a proxy than getting a new IP from your ISP but in this case its more likely that they are the ones lagging, nothing others
or others appear to lag to them
also aimbots on their own are not known to cause any lag and never to other players because the effects are only visible at the cheaters pc unless maybe they added and use a speedhack function
so unless they're "packet crafting" as i call it (in some cases it may give the server a hard time doing unusual things and maybe eventually the other players) or speedhacking (which might also mean that the server is receiving and sending updates faster) it's unlikely that client-side modifications cause performance issues on others players ends
maybe my explanations are a bit vague because i've been awake for more than 50 hours so i dont really want to read everything i type more than once but i guess its obvious cake anyway
--
edit
to give a more direct answer:
hackers are often associated with lag because a game, server and connectivity in between are usually designed in such a way that everything works as intended when used as intended
and it's often hackers messing around beyond the given options for a sensation of gaining any kind of advantage over others by other means than gameskill
and what effects that can have depends entirely on the game as a whole
but in practice, speaking from experience, it rarely ever causes lag
because developers should know and understand the systems they write and while doing so, with experience, you take precautions one way or another so nothing unexpected should happen to their best of knowledge
most things you can figure out by common sense
and so is this if you're into game development
05/23/2012 (10:13 am)
i understood you perfectlywhen a client hooks, for example, queryperformancecounter or timegettime or an other timer to return a custom value his game will act as if time is passing faster and so events will follow up faster
so his client may be sending character position updates faster to the server and that in turn may cause him spazzing around the map and he will appear at a new location every time the other users request the positions of the players within visible range, so at a normal interval
which means he will appear as if he is lagging
or in another scenario maybe the server broadcasts new player location as soon as it received anything and in turn maybe you receive much more bandwidth because there are more updates or having to receive and calculate positions causes cpu/gpu performance issues
and those are just random examples of the many theoretical/hypothetical possibilities
but again, i have never experienced anything like you describe with the exception that i saw people where speedhacking spazz around because their position is updated and broadcasted slower than his actual movements which makes him appear as if he is warping around
and regarding proxies:
i have made a proxy in the past that would edit the packets as required to cause a wanted effect but what those effects are and how they appear are again completely depending on the game design and how much you can mess around as there usually is atleast some level of protection
so it depends on their protocol(s) for sending and receiving data
another reason people might use proxies is simply to hide their IP so that they can avoid getting banned
because sometimes its easier to find a proxy than getting a new IP from your ISP but in this case its more likely that they are the ones lagging, nothing others
or others appear to lag to them
also aimbots on their own are not known to cause any lag and never to other players because the effects are only visible at the cheaters pc unless maybe they added and use a speedhack function
so unless they're "packet crafting" as i call it (in some cases it may give the server a hard time doing unusual things and maybe eventually the other players) or speedhacking (which might also mean that the server is receiving and sending updates faster) it's unlikely that client-side modifications cause performance issues on others players ends
maybe my explanations are a bit vague because i've been awake for more than 50 hours so i dont really want to read everything i type more than once but i guess its obvious cake anyway
--
edit
to give a more direct answer:
hackers are often associated with lag because a game, server and connectivity in between are usually designed in such a way that everything works as intended when used as intended
and it's often hackers messing around beyond the given options for a sensation of gaining any kind of advantage over others by other means than gameskill
and what effects that can have depends entirely on the game as a whole
but in practice, speaking from experience, it rarely ever causes lag
because developers should know and understand the systems they write and while doing so, with experience, you take precautions one way or another so nothing unexpected should happen to their best of knowledge
most things you can figure out by common sense
and so is this if you're into game development
#4
It does seem to be more prevalent when the speed hacks are being used at higher speed levels and I don't understand that correlation. But I do think the intervention of the proxy between the server and the client in certain conditions can act like a lag switch. The servers I'm talking about kick players with a high ping because their latency causes other players to lag. I think this is because the server metrics use a type of "lock step" processing.
I think this could cause the game metrics being provided to non-hack using clients to be delayed giving the "feel" of lag. Even though "their" client ping and latency remains consistent and is not the cause of the lag nor is anything on their computer as some I've talked to would have others believe.
I think this could be because the "proxy" the hacker uses is most likely a high speed state of the art computer that processes the ping requests sent by the server as well as running the scripts for the user that alters and process the game metrics for the user's client. The client the proxy is serving may be a much slower machine and even a very great distance away from the proxy not to mention the server itself.
The lock step processing the server does then slows down the processing of the metrics for all the people on the server to keep in time with the slowest client on the server. Normally the ping would show the lag this client produces but because of the intervention of the proxy it goes "unnoticed" and un-kicked by the server, acting much like a lag switch.
Well that is my theory and I am looking for your professional input on the idea. What is your take on the concept? I hope you got some sleep since your last post I know I needed some and had been up a lot less time than you. I'm not a haccusation maker every time I get owned. But I am a good player and just trying to understand what I am seeing happening and others are complaining about.
The only difference between what I see and they describe is I have a bit of technical knowledge they may lack. I'm not a programmer so I've said "I think" a lot and I'm looking for that kind of expertise to help me figure this out.
05/24/2012 (11:09 am)
I appreciate your input and understand your speed hack explanation. The "lag" I'm talking about is more like timing resets though. For example, you will be going around an object and all of a sudden get reset back to the beginning of your movements around the object. I think what is happening here is in a way a sort of lag switch but I'm not sure if it is intentional or accidental. It does seem to be more prevalent when the speed hacks are being used at higher speed levels and I don't understand that correlation. But I do think the intervention of the proxy between the server and the client in certain conditions can act like a lag switch. The servers I'm talking about kick players with a high ping because their latency causes other players to lag. I think this is because the server metrics use a type of "lock step" processing.
I think this could cause the game metrics being provided to non-hack using clients to be delayed giving the "feel" of lag. Even though "their" client ping and latency remains consistent and is not the cause of the lag nor is anything on their computer as some I've talked to would have others believe.
I think this could be because the "proxy" the hacker uses is most likely a high speed state of the art computer that processes the ping requests sent by the server as well as running the scripts for the user that alters and process the game metrics for the user's client. The client the proxy is serving may be a much slower machine and even a very great distance away from the proxy not to mention the server itself.
The lock step processing the server does then slows down the processing of the metrics for all the people on the server to keep in time with the slowest client on the server. Normally the ping would show the lag this client produces but because of the intervention of the proxy it goes "unnoticed" and un-kicked by the server, acting much like a lag switch.
Well that is my theory and I am looking for your professional input on the idea. What is your take on the concept? I hope you got some sleep since your last post I know I needed some and had been up a lot less time than you. I'm not a haccusation maker every time I get owned. But I am a good player and just trying to understand what I am seeing happening and others are complaining about.
The only difference between what I see and they describe is I have a bit of technical knowledge they may lack. I'm not a programmer so I've said "I think" a lot and I'm looking for that kind of expertise to help me figure this out.
#5
What would be interesting is setting up a T3D game and also try setting up a speed hack to see if this indeed causes the correction system to go wonky.
05/24/2012 (1:00 pm)
It could be a correction system that does predictive movement and position calculations. When someone starts stressing that system it might be getting confused. I have seen the choppy movement you talk about when playing HL2. What would be interesting is setting up a T3D game and also try setting up a speed hack to see if this indeed causes the correction system to go wonky.
#6
Other than that, yea we can discuss countless of different scenarios and things that may or may not happen, should or should not happen,
but I think the most relevant things have been said.
So if you could provide us the name of the game you are talking about specifically we can -- if we know the game -- provide answers that apply to the game in question.
It's probably a better idea to ask on their own forums however.
05/24/2012 (2:05 pm)
I have to agree with Frank Carney.Other than that, yea we can discuss countless of different scenarios and things that may or may not happen, should or should not happen,
but I think the most relevant things have been said.
So if you could provide us the name of the game you are talking about specifically we can -- if we know the game -- provide answers that apply to the game in question.
It's probably a better idea to ask on their own forums however.
#7
Combat Arms is one of the most hacked up games on the planet and caters to the script kiddies with Guitar guns and the like. Battlefield 2 was quite hacked as well toward the end. I am not sure from what I have seen that the programmers spend much time working on prevention or glitch fixes. But I love the concept and use of vehicles and ground troops on the same battlefield including planes and helicopters.
I would play Battlefield 3 instead but from what I hear it is getting hacked up too. My computer is too old and slow and it has been a couple years since I was able to afford a new state of the art gamer model... lol. I don't think there is a popular game on the market that is not being actively hacked by sites that make lots of money from those hacks. Patching the games only seems to work for a couple of weeks until the hackers figure out how to beat the system again.
I think it would be terribly interesting to run the simulations you and I suggest but I am far from the abilities to do so... I assume you are much more likely to be able to accomplish that. And I would be very interested in what ever input or insights you might have or discover.
One last observation I have had that might give some insight is when these hacks started in a big way, I noticed the game engine seemed to be "splitting" its game model and information that it sent to the different clients. For example you would approach a flag and no one was around. All of a sudden you would die and the kill cam would show a player on the other side of the battlefield. At other times I would be at a flag and killing players that did not seem to know I was there. A few times I was at a flag and all of a sudden the game metrics would update and a whole bunch of vehicles and players would suddenly appear out of nowhere and some of them would even be seen "sliding" in from other parts of the Battlefield. This seems to have stopped but the laggy feel of the game has increased.
Edit:
Nothing but "trolling" available there... lol.
I am not an anti-hacker or hater individual... Having a better computer gives an "unfair" advantage as well in FPS but I would like the developers to be able to provide a level playing field for "ALL" players. I don't know what the answer is...
Edit:
Half-Life 2 (I thought that was single player?), Torque 3D (Duh)lol.
Sorry this isn't one of your games but the theories we both presented should be applicable to any engine that uses lock step timing. Is that something torque uses?
05/24/2012 (2:39 pm)
I'm not familiar with HL2 and I assume that T3D would be a type of game in HL2? The actual game I'm talking about is Battlefield Play4Free. This is a web game based on the old coding of the Battlefield 2 game by EA. This new venture is run by EAsy based out of Sweden I believe. They are also responsible for Battlefield Heroes. These games are setup a lot like the business model of Combat Arms. Combat Arms is one of the most hacked up games on the planet and caters to the script kiddies with Guitar guns and the like. Battlefield 2 was quite hacked as well toward the end. I am not sure from what I have seen that the programmers spend much time working on prevention or glitch fixes. But I love the concept and use of vehicles and ground troops on the same battlefield including planes and helicopters.
I would play Battlefield 3 instead but from what I hear it is getting hacked up too. My computer is too old and slow and it has been a couple years since I was able to afford a new state of the art gamer model... lol. I don't think there is a popular game on the market that is not being actively hacked by sites that make lots of money from those hacks. Patching the games only seems to work for a couple of weeks until the hackers figure out how to beat the system again.
I think it would be terribly interesting to run the simulations you and I suggest but I am far from the abilities to do so... I assume you are much more likely to be able to accomplish that. And I would be very interested in what ever input or insights you might have or discover.
One last observation I have had that might give some insight is when these hacks started in a big way, I noticed the game engine seemed to be "splitting" its game model and information that it sent to the different clients. For example you would approach a flag and no one was around. All of a sudden you would die and the kill cam would show a player on the other side of the battlefield. At other times I would be at a flag and killing players that did not seem to know I was there. A few times I was at a flag and all of a sudden the game metrics would update and a whole bunch of vehicles and players would suddenly appear out of nowhere and some of them would even be seen "sliding" in from other parts of the Battlefield. This seems to have stopped but the laggy feel of the game has increased.
Edit:
Nothing but "trolling" available there... lol.
I am not an anti-hacker or hater individual... Having a better computer gives an "unfair" advantage as well in FPS but I would like the developers to be able to provide a level playing field for "ALL" players. I don't know what the answer is...
Edit:
Half-Life 2 (I thought that was single player?), Torque 3D (Duh)lol.
Sorry this isn't one of your games but the theories we both presented should be applicable to any engine that uses lock step timing. Is that something torque uses?
#9
I want to thank you and Frank for your input. You have helped me crystallize my thoughts and been very helpful. It is nice to find some people that will talk about this without trolling. I was hoping to find that when I chose this forum and I am glad you did not disappoint.
05/25/2012 (9:26 pm)
That is too bad it is a quite nice game and I would recommend that you look it up and give it a look if you like FPS. It is free to play so a look won't cost you anything.I want to thank you and Frank for your input. You have helped me crystallize my thoughts and been very helpful. It is nice to find some people that will talk about this without trolling. I was hoping to find that when I chose this forum and I am glad you did not disappoint.
S Gorlitz
depends entirely on the game and its design
if they speedhack maybe they will appear to lag as they move faster on their client than the update interval on the server and clients maybe
or if they do something arbitrary that in some odd way requires more bandwidth / resources
i've programmed different types of hacks for many games in the past and they never caused any lag