Forming a team - the right way and the wrong way
by Joe Maruschak · in Jobs · 08/17/2003 (11:44 am) · 11 replies
Every few days, I check the help wanted ads here on GG to see if there is anything interesting worth pursuing. Usually there is nothing worth taking seriously, but this Help Wanted posting stood out.
For all of the postings here on the forums from people trying to start teams (and most failing), I would advise that you take a look at this, as it is a good example of the right way to approach building a team.
What stood out for me in this posting was 1) a professional presentation, and 2) a bit of work to demonstrate the possible look of the project (instead of a lengthy, poorly spelled description of a game idea hat I have heard too many times).
I usually would not take the time to post something like this, but with all the 'help me with my project' threads that pop up all the time, I thought it would be appropriate to start a hopefully positive discussion on this subject in the hopes that the team building aspect of the GG site can be made better, and that the help wanted section of this site becomes more useful.
Eventually, I suppose it would be good to make a little resource of things to do when starting a project and trying to form a team (and perhaps get rid of some of the noise that has been taking over the forums as of late.)
For all of the postings here on the forums from people trying to start teams (and most failing), I would advise that you take a look at this, as it is a good example of the right way to approach building a team.
What stood out for me in this posting was 1) a professional presentation, and 2) a bit of work to demonstrate the possible look of the project (instead of a lengthy, poorly spelled description of a game idea hat I have heard too many times).
I usually would not take the time to post something like this, but with all the 'help me with my project' threads that pop up all the time, I thought it would be appropriate to start a hopefully positive discussion on this subject in the hopes that the team building aspect of the GG site can be made better, and that the help wanted section of this site becomes more useful.
Eventually, I suppose it would be good to make a little resource of things to do when starting a project and trying to form a team (and perhaps get rid of some of the noise that has been taking over the forums as of late.)
About the author
#2
Getting anything into a state that is releaseable, securing space to upload it, and then uploading it goes a lot further than a big long pie-in-the-sky forum post. I do agree that flashy art will grab more eyeballs, but a good tech demo is actually very impressive.
08/17/2003 (2:15 pm)
I disagree there. Having a neat physics demo that could be downloaded and played with would be great. I remember playing with the first Havok physics demos from quite a while. A good game, even if the art is very rudimentary, is impressive if it is fun to play with. Getting anything into a state that is releaseable, securing space to upload it, and then uploading it goes a lot further than a big long pie-in-the-sky forum post. I do agree that flashy art will grab more eyeballs, but a good tech demo is actually very impressive.
#3
Eye candy is nice, and even posting pictures of things that look bad shows that you are making progress and may get you in contact with someone you weren't specifically looking for. For example, I just took a look at Greg's project and help wanted adds and saw that he has a simple image of a basketball court with a pyramid shaped player (assuming thats the player placeholder). Allthough it's not exactly an impressive piece of artwork I can gather from that simple image that he has some basis of a game foundation rather than just an idea/dream.
If we could just filter out all of the "massively multiplayer" projects and adds I'd be happy, no offense but I'd rather work on several small projects that have a very good chance of being completed instead of one massive project that may never even reach its beta stage.
08/17/2003 (2:43 pm)
Maybe I'm just too picky, but the biggest thing for me in any help wanted add, or team building thread, is the spelling and grammar. It doesn't have to be perfect and a few typos are no big deal, but it should at least be run through a spell checker if nothing else. After all if you can't put together a simple text post why should I even begin to think that you can put together a complex project.Eye candy is nice, and even posting pictures of things that look bad shows that you are making progress and may get you in contact with someone you weren't specifically looking for. For example, I just took a look at Greg's project and help wanted adds and saw that he has a simple image of a basketball court with a pyramid shaped player (assuming thats the player placeholder). Allthough it's not exactly an impressive piece of artwork I can gather from that simple image that he has some basis of a game foundation rather than just an idea/dream.
If we could just filter out all of the "massively multiplayer" projects and adds I'd be happy, no offense but I'd rather work on several small projects that have a very good chance of being completed instead of one massive project that may never even reach its beta stage.
#4
I wish a lot more projects would release playable demos :). Of course, the downside is that this takes a lot of work... but if you're stalled on artwork or other things due to lack of personnel, you might as well sit down, polish up your app, and send a demo of it out to attract people. Worst case, you have a really awesome piece of sample work to send with your resume. Best case, you'll attract some talented, professional people who were convinced by your demo that you were worth their time.
08/17/2003 (2:45 pm)
I agree with Joe. Any project that releases a demo and has a clean, well-written website, I immediately take more seriously. If the demo runs on my system and is amusing or shows potential, I take it very seriously.I wish a lot more projects would release playable demos :). Of course, the downside is that this takes a lot of work... but if you're stalled on artwork or other things due to lack of personnel, you might as well sit down, polish up your app, and send a demo of it out to attract people. Worst case, you have a really awesome piece of sample work to send with your resume. Best case, you'll attract some talented, professional people who were convinced by your demo that you were worth their time.
#5
08/17/2003 (10:41 pm)
I was hoping you guys would think a demo would attract some people. I've had my prototype on the site for ahwile hoping it would show that I have more than just an idea. Obviously the artwork is lacking but at least it shows that I've put effort into my project. So far it hasn't gotten any takers but hopefully it will help attract some people. I just don't think it has the same effect as catchy artwork. Just my opinion, hopefully I'm wrong :)
#6
08/17/2003 (11:55 pm)
Are you tracking hits on the demo? If no one's downloading it, you might need to up your presentation/advertisement strategy...
#7
I think I'll fire off an email to you in a bit anyway, I won't help much with concept art of basketball players but I may be able to help with the rest of your 2d needs and some of your 3d stuff as well. Then we can test the whole "flashy graphics" theory. ;)
08/18/2003 (1:16 pm)
Well I think there is allways the fact that some people may just not be interested in the subject of your project. Just guessing from the other projects around but there seems to be a lot of intrest in fantasy, sci-fi and war based games with very few real sports games. If that's any indication of the GG members' intrests as a whole it may have absolutely nothing to do with your presentation or demo availability.I think I'll fire off an email to you in a bit anyway, I won't help much with concept art of basketball players but I may be able to help with the rest of your 2d needs and some of your 3d stuff as well. Then we can test the whole "flashy graphics" theory. ;)
#8
08/18/2003 (1:57 pm)
Hmmm, I agree with Joe as well. Well said, and it's making me rethink the way I've been presenting my project in my ads. It's hard to just get people to join a project because of the ratio of projects to people, but also because sometimes a picture or a piece of concept art or a screenshot makes all the difference. 
#9
I am walking proof that a fun demo with crappy art can go a *long* way towards attracting a team.
In a fit of randomness I installed a prototype for a game on the computers at IGC. A few other developers and I had spent all of two weeks on the game. We were using the Test Guy from the fps demo and the Realm Wars Elf Chick (her official title) for player models, a box for the rocket launcher, a red and white sphere for the ball, and a *very* ugly and boxy arena I had thrown together in one night.
At first no one noticed the game and the few who cranked it up looked at it for a few minutes at most. Very much the reaction I'd imagine I'd get if I had just posted a download in these forums. But after a little while we got together a few people and started up a match or two. The difference was huge! Before I knew it I had a lot of very interested developers =) Funny thing is that none of them were specifically interested in the genre before playing the game.
I think this both strengthens the assertion that a good demo (even if ugly) *can* attract team members but it does put an interesting spin on it. I do not think that my game would have been nearly as succesful a demo in a different setting (like downloaded off the internet). The basic premise to the gameplay was multiplayer teams playing against each other and until I had that it was nearly impossible to show why my game would be fun. The only other course of action I could have taken is to add in bots. When building your demo you need to consider what they are actually going to see. They can't see the "vision" in your head and in most cases you won't be there to tell them about it. All they have to go on is the demo. It can be hard for the developer to look at his own demo without seeing the end result so it is often good to get a reality check from a thrid party.
I think too that there is a distinction between mechanics driven games and story driven games.
Puzzle games, multiplayer shooters, pong, etc. are all games driven by and defined by their mechanics/rules. You don't *need* a story to get running around shooting people online or to move bugs around or to pop bubbles. You also don't need pretty artwork for those. If they have good, fun mechanics it will show through to a fellow developer even if you are using opengl cubes =)
With story driven games the game is defined by its content. The player is playing to see new content (whether it be models, locations, or story). The content needs to back up the story at least a little bit (seeing allied cubes fighting axis cubes wouldn't have the same impact as actual soldiers storming a heavily defended beach). However, it is very possible to convey a story with minimal content. Take a look at Red vs Blue to see what I mean. They did need some content (like the voices) to back up the story but they managed to do a lot w/o anything new or fancy. There is a slightly higher requirements for a good story driven demo than for a purely mechanics demo but it isn't impossible.
On a more personal note: one thing that rapidly turns me off from a demo is if I have to struggle with the controls for more than a few minutes. It may seem intuitive to you but you really should run in by a few family and friends and see how it handles for them.
02/24/2004 (8:45 am)
I bookmarked this thread a long while back and just got back to it.I am walking proof that a fun demo with crappy art can go a *long* way towards attracting a team.
In a fit of randomness I installed a prototype for a game on the computers at IGC. A few other developers and I had spent all of two weeks on the game. We were using the Test Guy from the fps demo and the Realm Wars Elf Chick (her official title) for player models, a box for the rocket launcher, a red and white sphere for the ball, and a *very* ugly and boxy arena I had thrown together in one night.
At first no one noticed the game and the few who cranked it up looked at it for a few minutes at most. Very much the reaction I'd imagine I'd get if I had just posted a download in these forums. But after a little while we got together a few people and started up a match or two. The difference was huge! Before I knew it I had a lot of very interested developers =) Funny thing is that none of them were specifically interested in the genre before playing the game.
I think this both strengthens the assertion that a good demo (even if ugly) *can* attract team members but it does put an interesting spin on it. I do not think that my game would have been nearly as succesful a demo in a different setting (like downloaded off the internet). The basic premise to the gameplay was multiplayer teams playing against each other and until I had that it was nearly impossible to show why my game would be fun. The only other course of action I could have taken is to add in bots. When building your demo you need to consider what they are actually going to see. They can't see the "vision" in your head and in most cases you won't be there to tell them about it. All they have to go on is the demo. It can be hard for the developer to look at his own demo without seeing the end result so it is often good to get a reality check from a thrid party.
I think too that there is a distinction between mechanics driven games and story driven games.
Puzzle games, multiplayer shooters, pong, etc. are all games driven by and defined by their mechanics/rules. You don't *need* a story to get running around shooting people online or to move bugs around or to pop bubbles. You also don't need pretty artwork for those. If they have good, fun mechanics it will show through to a fellow developer even if you are using opengl cubes =)
With story driven games the game is defined by its content. The player is playing to see new content (whether it be models, locations, or story). The content needs to back up the story at least a little bit (seeing allied cubes fighting axis cubes wouldn't have the same impact as actual soldiers storming a heavily defended beach). However, it is very possible to convey a story with minimal content. Take a look at Red vs Blue to see what I mean. They did need some content (like the voices) to back up the story but they managed to do a lot w/o anything new or fancy. There is a slightly higher requirements for a good story driven demo than for a purely mechanics demo but it isn't impossible.
On a more personal note: one thing that rapidly turns me off from a demo is if I have to struggle with the controls for more than a few minutes. It may seem intuitive to you but you really should run in by a few family and friends and see how it handles for them.
#10
The controls are slightly better than before, and testers actually tell me some things other than that the controls are bad (which they still tell me). There's no art to speak of, but there is a little bit of story content (the "learn to play" place and the first town except for what the "big boss" of the town says after you beat him).
Don't think this means you don't have to get art done though. The art isn't essential in your first demo, but you'll be way better off if you find some artists sooner rather than later. Finding artists at the end of the development cycle doubles the time it takes to get the game done because it takes the artists just as long to do their work as it does you to do yours.
But, on the other hand, don't bother looking for help unless you have a demo that's worth playing at least a little bit. It's just a waste of your time and the time of anyone who downloads your demo.
You CAN post something to the team building forum that's basically like "I'm making this game - it's like blah, blah, blah - help me please" early on in the dev cycle.
I don't know exactly what I was trying to say there, but, whatever it was, I said it. And probably its opposite too.
02/24/2004 (9:41 pm)
I just want to say that Matthew is 100% correct that a demo with screwy controls will annoy people. The demo for my RPG has very hacky mouse controls, and I only just started to add the keyboard controls.The controls are slightly better than before, and testers actually tell me some things other than that the controls are bad (which they still tell me). There's no art to speak of, but there is a little bit of story content (the "learn to play" place and the first town except for what the "big boss" of the town says after you beat him).
Don't think this means you don't have to get art done though. The art isn't essential in your first demo, but you'll be way better off if you find some artists sooner rather than later. Finding artists at the end of the development cycle doubles the time it takes to get the game done because it takes the artists just as long to do their work as it does you to do yours.
But, on the other hand, don't bother looking for help unless you have a demo that's worth playing at least a little bit. It's just a waste of your time and the time of anyone who downloads your demo.
You CAN post something to the team building forum that's basically like "I'm making this game - it's like blah, blah, blah - help me please" early on in the dev cycle.
I don't know exactly what I was trying to say there, but, whatever it was, I said it. And probably its opposite too.
#11
03/09/2004 (9:33 am)
I just came across a site that allows an online method of building a team. Quite interesting, as it uses the concept of people networking to grow your circle of contacts. It seems like it would be useful for both marketing your products as well as recruiting a team of people. Have a look! www.linkedin.com 
Torque Owner Greg "greggtwep" Friend
However, a resource like this would help those commited to a project get organized faster. However, if someone is devoted to a project they will find a way to make it work one way or another. BTW, I would post about my project here but I have a feeling it would add to the noise for joe. I however am very commited to it even if I have to do it all myself.
On a side note, how would a project started by a programmer look professional before an end product? I have a working prototype for the physics engine but for the professional appeal to a help wanted ad you have to have something catch your eye and I know physics doesn't do that.