White Trees and Rocks
by Michael Lewis · in ThinkTanks · 08/06/2003 (8:09 am) · 22 replies
I just found out about the v1.1 upgrade and downloaded it to change over from v1.02. In my first playing online, I've noticed that trees and rocks (and sometimes tanks? have to play some more to see) sometimes blink out white (kind of gray-white). It's like a texture problem, but everything looks fine sometimes, so it is strange to me and I thought I'd post here for ideas.
I dragged my various settings and ignition file from the old v1.0.2 application to the new v1.1 app as described in the readme. Should I trash some prefs or something?
My system:
Power Mac G4/400
ATI Rage 128 Pro 16MB AGP2X
702MBs RAM
Mac OS X 10.2.6
Usually play at 1024x768 with 16-bit checked; problem
happens with 32-bit checked (although I can't play at that setting obviously :) ) and am checking 800x600 later.
I dragged my various settings and ignition file from the old v1.0.2 application to the new v1.1 app as described in the readme. Should I trash some prefs or something?
My system:
Power Mac G4/400
ATI Rage 128 Pro 16MB AGP2X
702MBs RAM
Mac OS X 10.2.6
Usually play at 1024x768 with 16-bit checked; problem
happens with 32-bit checked (although I can't play at that setting obviously :) ) and am checking 800x600 later.
About the author
#2
It definitely sounds like a video card setting problem. The Rage 128's are on the low end of the low spec.
If you are still having problems after trying to copy the prefs over, send an email to support@bravetree.com and we will see what we can do to get you out of acid trip mode.
Joe
08/06/2003 (8:32 am)
And it worked in 1.02 without problem? Try copying the prefs over from 1.02 to 1.1. It definitely sounds like a video card setting problem. The Rage 128's are on the low end of the low spec.
If you are still having problems after trying to copy the prefs over, send an email to support@bravetree.com and we will see what we can do to get you out of acid trip mode.
Joe
#3
I did that, I believe. I copied the files prefs.cs, hiscores.cs, and players.cs from the v1.02 Contents/Resources/game folder to the same folder in the v1.1 package.
There are also similarly named files except they have a .dso extender, but the readme didn't say to copy those.
Tried removing "ThinkTanks OSX.plist" from my Library /Preferences folder but to no avail. Also tried starting the game after removing prefs.cs and prefs.cs.dso but still have the problem.
Also tried a solo game, but same video glitches. Also tried windowed mode, but no luck.
>And it worked in 1.02 without problem?
Yes, definitely. I just started my backup of 1.02 and it didn't show any graphical glitches.
Just for the sake of it, here are a couple of screenshots:
Screenshot from v1.02
Screenshot from v1.1
(see white rocks in pit area ahead)
08/06/2003 (9:19 am)
>Try copying the prefs over from 1.02 to 1.1. I did that, I believe. I copied the files prefs.cs, hiscores.cs, and players.cs from the v1.02 Contents/Resources/game folder to the same folder in the v1.1 package.
There are also similarly named files except they have a .dso extender, but the readme didn't say to copy those.
Tried removing "ThinkTanks OSX.plist" from my Library /Preferences folder but to no avail. Also tried starting the game after removing prefs.cs and prefs.cs.dso but still have the problem.
Also tried a solo game, but same video glitches. Also tried windowed mode, but no luck.
>And it worked in 1.02 without problem?
Yes, definitely. I just started my backup of 1.02 and it didn't show any graphical glitches.
Just for the sake of it, here are a couple of screenshots:
Screenshot from v1.02
Screenshot from v1.1
(see white rocks in pit area ahead)
#4
08/06/2003 (10:30 am)
Very interesting. We will take a look and see if we can reproducr it. Can you please email me joe@bravetree.com? If we can find out what is going on, we may need you to do some tests.
#6
08/07/2003 (6:39 pm)
Heh.. :) You should see it live, all of them blinking randomly. It's a texture problem of some kind, but it is pretty cool how it leaves behind shaded white forms. If I can figure out how to make a short movie file of it, I'll put that on my server as wewll for kicks. :)
#7
MAX
08/09/2003 (11:15 pm)
I am also experiencing this texture issue but only when I use a Powerbook G3 500MHz with a 8 bit ATY Rage M3 Video Card in it. So I expect video issues because it is not even the recomended 16 bit graphics card. Those with this problem may also be runnung 8 bit perhaps. Although it got considerably worse with 1.1.MAX
#8
08/10/2003 (4:58 am)
Yep, I see the same problem as described here on an 640MB iMac G3/500 MHz, MacOS 10.2.6 with 8MB Rage128Pro. I've tried different resolutions (640 x 480, 800 x 600) and all levels of detail but it doesn't go away.
#9
08/10/2003 (10:51 am)
I wonder if it's just the ATi Rage chipset then, whether a Rage, Rage 128, or Rage 128 Pro. It'd be interesting to know if anyone is seeing this with NVIDIA chipsets which have 16MBs of VRAM or less...
#10
Heh.. :) You should see it live, all of them blinking randomly. It's a texture problem of some kind, but it is pretty cool how it leaves behind shaded white forms. If I can figure out how to make a short movie file of it, I'll put that on my server as wewll for kicks. :)
POST
Well, if you download a program called Cam Studio (do a search), you can record wat's goin on on your screen. It eats the system resources tho....
08/10/2003 (1:44 pm)
QUOTE:Heh.. :) You should see it live, all of them blinking randomly. It's a texture problem of some kind, but it is pretty cool how it leaves behind shaded white forms. If I can figure out how to make a short movie file of it, I'll put that on my server as wewll for kicks. :)
POST
Well, if you download a program called Cam Studio (do a search), you can record wat's goin on on your screen. It eats the system resources tho....
#11
There is a program by Ambrosia Software called SnapZ Pro which will do the same as Cam Studio for Macs. It beefs up screen capture in general (screen capture is built-into Mac OS) and also does video capture of screen action.
Unfortunately, from what I can see, both programs capture video from what the screen is doing, so they're good for making movies about desktop processes, etc. such as when making tutorial movies. Neither is good for capturing game video...
08/11/2003 (5:13 pm)
Cam Studio appears to be for Windows. I have a Mac.There is a program by Ambrosia Software called SnapZ Pro which will do the same as Cam Studio for Macs. It beefs up screen capture in general (screen capture is built-into Mac OS) and also does video capture of screen action.
Unfortunately, from what I can see, both programs capture video from what the screen is doing, so they're good for making movies about desktop processes, etc. such as when making tutorial movies. Neither is good for capturing game video...
#12
We'll hunt this down.
d
08/11/2003 (9:05 pm)
That sounds interesting. Joe - feel free to drop me an email offline, as I got a new-old machine for testing stuff like this, finally... Just wish you guys had dropped me a line before 1.1 went out the door... ;)We'll hunt this down.
d
#13
This is a strange bug guys. The video card on my Mac dev machine is an ATI 7000 and I never saw that, so at least it isn't happening on later ATI cards.
We were very careful to make only subtle changes to ThinkTanks on this revision, so we are very surprised to see this issue crop up. The two changes that could conceivably (at least in my unimaginative head) cause this issue was the use of ogg files instead of wavs for sound and the splitting of png's into multiple jpg files. Both changes were to reduce the download size. The jpg change should make no difference on the memory footprint once loaded. The ogg change is a little more suspect simply because we are relying on a much less tested library in that case.
Anyway, a good test would be to replace the png's from before and the wavs from before and see if 1.1 no longer has the sound or art problems (and if that fixes the issues, we can try to isolate the cause a little more narrowly).
So, if you are having this problem, send me an email and I will send you a link to a different set of art and instructions for using it instead (I won't get to this till later this afternoon). Hopefully we can isolate the problem down to one of the ogg files or something like that.
clark
08/13/2003 (10:13 am)
Boy, I get back from vacation and what do I find. :)This is a strange bug guys. The video card on my Mac dev machine is an ATI 7000 and I never saw that, so at least it isn't happening on later ATI cards.
We were very careful to make only subtle changes to ThinkTanks on this revision, so we are very surprised to see this issue crop up. The two changes that could conceivably (at least in my unimaginative head) cause this issue was the use of ogg files instead of wavs for sound and the splitting of png's into multiple jpg files. Both changes were to reduce the download size. The jpg change should make no difference on the memory footprint once loaded. The ogg change is a little more suspect simply because we are relying on a much less tested library in that case.
Anyway, a good test would be to replace the png's from before and the wavs from before and see if 1.1 no longer has the sound or art problems (and if that fixes the issues, we can try to isolate the cause a little more narrowly).
So, if you are having this problem, send me an email and I will send you a link to a different set of art and instructions for using it instead (I won't get to this till later this afternoon). Hopefully we can isolate the problem down to one of the ogg files or something like that.
clark
#14
Maybe there is something else at work that makes this test not worth anything, but it seemed like an idea to try. Does it rule out graphics and sounds then and point to some other code change between 1.02 and 1.1?
Anyone else out there bravely fiddling inside "Show Package contents" and copies of their ThnkTanks versions want to try this and see if you get the same result?
08/17/2003 (12:05 pm)
For what it's worth, I got the crazy idea to take the common and game folders from the new v1.1 and move them into the v1.02 app today. v.1.02 ran with these PNG and OGG files with no texture or sound issues whatsoever.Maybe there is something else at work that makes this test not worth anything, but it seemed like an idea to try. Does it rule out graphics and sounds then and point to some other code change between 1.02 and 1.1?
Anyone else out there bravely fiddling inside "Show Package contents" and copies of their ThnkTanks versions want to try this and see if you get the same result?
#15
Cheers
Cpl Burn (Iain)
PS Oh yeah anything I can do about it?
09/04/2003 (11:29 pm)
Had the texture problem on my machine, running an AMD XP1600+ with a 32Mb SIS315 graphics card and Windows XP Pro, I haven't upgraded Think Tanks (that I am aware of) but I did download some MS updates (I know!) which included a DirectX 9 update. I am not 100% sure but from my leaky memory it seems to coincide.Cheers
Cpl Burn (Iain)
PS Oh yeah anything I can do about it?
#16
Brian (barf)
09/15/2003 (7:35 pm)
I have this problem on my Mac as well. Please let me know if there is anything that can be done. Thanks.Brian (barf)
#17
That doesn't seem to be the case on the mac. We are still baffled by this bug, but we haven't been able to reproduce it here at BraveTree central.
Brian, here are a couple ideas to try:
1) Right-click the ThinkTanks icon and select "show package contents". Navigate to the Contents/Resources folder.
2) Back up the file prefs.cs (and delete prefs.cs.dso).
3) Open up the file game/client/prefs.cs and find the line with $pref::OpenGL::maxTextureDim and change the value to 32 (this will cause you to have really blurry textures).
4) Find the line with $pref::Terrain::textureCacheSize and change the value to 20. This will make the terrain engine take up much less memory.
5) Find all the $pref::OpenGl::disable* lines in the prefs file and set them to 1. Find all the $pref::OpenGL::no* lines and set them to 0. This will turn off as many features of your video card as we can find.
Now try starting the game and seeing what happens. If it fixes the problem then we can try to isolate more. If it doesn't fix the problem, well, then you can't say we didn't try. :)
09/16/2003 (10:42 am)
Iain's case turned out to be a driver issue. When he rolled the drivers back one version (I think to the January '03 version) it all worked again. I believe there was one other person who experienced a similar fix on the pc.That doesn't seem to be the case on the mac. We are still baffled by this bug, but we haven't been able to reproduce it here at BraveTree central.
Brian, here are a couple ideas to try:
1) Right-click the ThinkTanks icon and select "show package contents". Navigate to the Contents/Resources folder.
2) Back up the file prefs.cs (and delete prefs.cs.dso).
3) Open up the file game/client/prefs.cs and find the line with $pref::OpenGL::maxTextureDim and change the value to 32 (this will cause you to have really blurry textures).
4) Find the line with $pref::Terrain::textureCacheSize and change the value to 20. This will make the terrain engine take up much less memory.
5) Find all the $pref::OpenGl::disable* lines in the prefs file and set them to 1. Find all the $pref::OpenGL::no* lines and set them to 0. This will turn off as many features of your video card as we can find.
Now try starting the game and seeing what happens. If it fixes the problem then we can try to isolate more. If it doesn't fix the problem, well, then you can't say we didn't try. :)
#18
09/16/2003 (11:15 am)
This fixed the problem (I did all of the changes and tried it and it was fixed). I will play around with changing them individually but please let me know if you have any advice on isolating the problem. Thanks for the help!
#19
You listed some more things in that most recent list than I had tried before, so I went step-by-step through them. Used a fresh installation of v1.1 which I hadn't touched before, either with the other files or by editing texturecachesize.
Initial game it didn't seem to help any for me. Strange...
Oh well. Maybe the fact they did seem help Brian will nail something that will help everyone.
09/16/2003 (1:36 pm)
Clark --You listed some more things in that most recent list than I had tried before, so I went step-by-step through them. Used a fresh installation of v1.1 which I hadn't touched before, either with the other files or by editing texturecachesize.
Initial game it didn't seem to help any for me. Strange...
Oh well. Maybe the fact they did seem help Brian will nail something that will help everyone.
Michael Lewis
- it does happen at lower rez (800x600).
- it happens no matter what level of detail I choose (high, medium or low)
- it tends to happen when there are a lot of objects on the screen. also, if I don't move, then the tree, rocks, and tanks will stay whatever color they are at that moment. Turning causes all the various objects to blink white and textured -- the white is not synced. It makes for a pretty psychedelic experience, were it not just white. :)