Want to work on a project that won't dissolve after 3 months?
by Greg "greggtwep" Friend · in General Discussion · 08/03/2003 (7:22 am) · 12 replies
I am new to GG but I am starting to see a trend (one that is probably true with the big guys too). I have been working on a game by myself for about 4 months now and then I was reading a tutorial on gamedev.net and learned about this place. When I read it I thought this is a great idea. So I posted my project to get people to join. More and more people I talk too however are skeptical to join because they think the project will dissolve in a few months because they have been burned in the past. I thought the project cancellation rate of small developers would have been pretty small but I guess I was wrong. All I know is that making games takes a long time and many problems will always arise along the way. I knew this going in and I still know this. If anyone wants to join a project that will not be cancelled look up "real basketball" by "friendly gaming". I'm sure it will have its rough points but it will not be cancelled since part of this project is for a learning experience not just making a game. One will always have something to learn.
#2
The reason the first game I worked on (well, the first game of an any size that I worked on) was because I was an inexperienced programmer. I tried to make a game beyond what I was able to.
I'm now capable of programming reasonably well because I eventually figured out that I needed to make some simpler games first and work my way up. People kept telling me that I would have to do that, but I wouldn't listen.
Alot of people on GG are working on their first game, so most of them fail. It's not anyone's fault. People usually screw up the first time they do something.
Another problem is that everyone wants to work on their own project, and no one wants to work on someone else's team. Of course, since I'm working on my own project right now, I shouldn't be one to point fingers.
08/03/2003 (2:33 pm)
I don't think that management is usually the problem. Management is really irrelevent, since most projects on GG never have more than a few people.The reason the first game I worked on (well, the first game of an any size that I worked on) was because I was an inexperienced programmer. I tried to make a game beyond what I was able to.
I'm now capable of programming reasonably well because I eventually figured out that I needed to make some simpler games first and work my way up. People kept telling me that I would have to do that, but I wouldn't listen.
Alot of people on GG are working on their first game, so most of them fail. It's not anyone's fault. People usually screw up the first time they do something.
Another problem is that everyone wants to work on their own project, and no one wants to work on someone else's team. Of course, since I'm working on my own project right now, I shouldn't be one to point fingers.
#3
I was talking beyond the level of that. Once you got a team going "for real" with capable people - having them stick around for 2 years spending a lot of RL time on a virtual team comes down to management and documentation. IMHO at least
08/03/2003 (2:58 pm)
Oh - agree to that one. That must be reason #1 of them all. I was talking beyond the level of that. Once you got a team going "for real" with capable people - having them stick around for 2 years spending a lot of RL time on a virtual team comes down to management and documentation. IMHO at least
#4
08/03/2003 (4:16 pm)
Would have to agree with everything that has been said here. I am also one with my "own" project so I can't point any fingers either. I was more talking about the projects that do start and when the going gets tough (as it always will with any project) the project dissolves. I fell that documentation is VERY important but I don't really agree with the management part. If the group is small say under 6 people I don't know if its really key. Any larger group it would definately be vital to success to keep everyone on the same page. However with one, two or three people its not that big of a deal. The purpose of this post was just to let people know that there was a project out there that wasn't going to quit. I'm sure the going will get tough and slow at parts but I'll be into this project until I graduate (and thats 3 years away) and even after that when I go into the industry for real I feel I will always have a side project of my own.
#5
That said, good managment skills do count for something, but it's more about keeping everybody together and working together than filling out Excel spreadsheets. It's hand holding, cheerleading, ass kicking, and straight talking to each and every member of the team, trying to do by remote what normal gets done in an office suite. And even then, it can quite possibly blow up in your face. Part of it is the inherent nature of the situation, and how far you actually trust your compatriots. Your programmer says he's working on that AI routine you need, but he might actually be trolling for porn while keeping an IRC window open. Your modeller could deliver due date after due date for that weapon model you've been asking about for the last six months, but they may not even have modelling software installed or even a preliminary sketch ready. If these are friends that you've known for a long time, it's going to hurt like hell to axe them if they're screwing around when they've agreed to help you. But if somebody on the team isn't pulling their weight, they need to be dumped for somebody who will. Plus, real life is going to intrude in nasty ways you probably never imagined. Car crashes, skiing accidents, problems with spouses/SOs, DUIs, and worse can and will show up at the worst possible. And that's not counting possible computer related problems, like hardware failures and OS crashes.
One last thing. If you're trying to build your game, alone or with a hand picked crew of elite talent, you may consider yourself to be "in the industry," however far out on the fringe of the independant game scene you are right now. Don't look at it as trying to break in, look at it as trying to break out.
08/28/2003 (10:58 am)
I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you want people to work on your project (thus potentially putting their own projects on hold), you have to get them to "buy in" to your idea. Make them excited about it. Make it so they see it in their dreams. Enthusiasm and inspiration are the great attractors, especially trying to co-ordinate in a virtual office situation. (That, and the distinct possibility of money, but that should be a distant third for your first couple of small indy projects.)That said, good managment skills do count for something, but it's more about keeping everybody together and working together than filling out Excel spreadsheets. It's hand holding, cheerleading, ass kicking, and straight talking to each and every member of the team, trying to do by remote what normal gets done in an office suite. And even then, it can quite possibly blow up in your face. Part of it is the inherent nature of the situation, and how far you actually trust your compatriots. Your programmer says he's working on that AI routine you need, but he might actually be trolling for porn while keeping an IRC window open. Your modeller could deliver due date after due date for that weapon model you've been asking about for the last six months, but they may not even have modelling software installed or even a preliminary sketch ready. If these are friends that you've known for a long time, it's going to hurt like hell to axe them if they're screwing around when they've agreed to help you. But if somebody on the team isn't pulling their weight, they need to be dumped for somebody who will. Plus, real life is going to intrude in nasty ways you probably never imagined. Car crashes, skiing accidents, problems with spouses/SOs, DUIs, and worse can and will show up at the worst possible. And that's not counting possible computer related problems, like hardware failures and OS crashes.
One last thing. If you're trying to build your game, alone or with a hand picked crew of elite talent, you may consider yourself to be "in the industry," however far out on the fringe of the independant game scene you are right now. Don't look at it as trying to break in, look at it as trying to break out.
#6
www.garagegames.com/newsletter/community/apr2002/
go to the rtfm manual section, it has some good info about this. (i like matt's writing, don't you?)
i think no project does very well in the beginning. the "manager" should do more than just manage they should be profecient in most of game making process. if they don't know a lot of things, there likely to have a dissolved project.
08/28/2003 (12:21 pm)
Here:www.garagegames.com/newsletter/community/apr2002/
go to the rtfm manual section, it has some good info about this. (i like matt's writing, don't you?)
i think no project does very well in the beginning. the "manager" should do more than just manage they should be profecient in most of game making process. if they don't know a lot of things, there likely to have a dissolved project.
#7
This is the most complex portion of the problem.
mostly workable character models.
and then bsp.
I see most projects fail due to lack of development in this area.
usually due to the artist unable to learn the curve on getting content into the engine.
08/28/2003 (4:30 pm)
Funny noone mentioned content developement and procurement.This is the most complex portion of the problem.
mostly workable character models.
and then bsp.
I see most projects fail due to lack of development in this area.
usually due to the artist unable to learn the curve on getting content into the engine.
#8
In fact, if you have such a project, you probably shouldn't say that it failed at all. You should say that it's in-progress because all you need to do is get an artist or two to finish off the artwork.
08/28/2003 (6:06 pm)
Well, unless a project is completely finished except for the art, I don't think it's fair to say that the artists made it fail.In fact, if you have such a project, you probably shouldn't say that it failed at all. You should say that it's in-progress because all you need to do is get an artist or two to finish off the artwork.
#9
08/28/2003 (6:11 pm)
Everyone suffers through failed projects; It's perfectly natural. If at first you don't succeed...
#10
In all seriousness, persistence will pay off eventually. In a way, getting your ego crushed and your big plans cut down to size (or stored away for later) is a useful exercise. It's not pleasant, but it is useful.
08/29/2003 (9:47 am)
...beat your head against the wall till you die from cerebral hemmoraging. :)In all seriousness, persistence will pay off eventually. In a way, getting your ego crushed and your big plans cut down to size (or stored away for later) is a useful exercise. It's not pleasant, but it is useful.
#11
I figure at least the ones that die completely you don't end up wasting time and resources on anymore.
08/29/2003 (2:57 pm)
What is worse/better projects that die a definative death or ones that languish in a coma?I figure at least the ones that die completely you don't end up wasting time and resources on anymore.
#12
The only way a project can die is if all (or at least many) of its creators give up on it. Most successful games have gone through a series of failed stages.
For instance, before John Carmack made Doom, he made alot of other similar games that weren't as good. They weren't necessarily failures, but they weren't Doom either.
However, it should be noted that having a series of incarnations of the game won't magically make the game successful. I believe this iteration is almost necessary to make a good game, but it is not sufficient in and of itself.
08/29/2003 (5:58 pm)
Projects in a coma might be revived again later on.The only way a project can die is if all (or at least many) of its creators give up on it. Most successful games have gone through a series of failed stages.
For instance, before John Carmack made Doom, he made alot of other similar games that weren't as good. They weren't necessarily failures, but they weren't Doom either.
However, it should be noted that having a series of incarnations of the game won't magically make the game successful. I believe this iteration is almost necessary to make a good game, but it is not sufficient in and of itself.
Torque Owner Thomas \"Man of Ice\" Lund
For a project to succeed with a "virtual office" you need extremely good project management skills as well as putting tons of effort into documentation.
Just my oppinion. Soz to hijack your thread ;-)