No Game Game
by Andrew Burton · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 06/25/2003 (12:14 pm) · 14 replies
I'm going to take the Game Idea forum at face value and toss out an "idea" I've been wrestling with. Up front, allow me to make two point. First, I am a programmer of sorts; I do web developing, Unix process shell scripts, Just Another Perl Hacker, etc. at work. I'm just not a professional programmer (re: I don't develop software professionally), but I know enough to understand technical limitations. Second, I've not yet gotten around to digging through and creating anything with my copy of the Torque Engine, so any "idea" is said here for the simple sake of the "idea" itself. Okay, that disclaimed...
Has anyone ever created an MMOG that wasn't so much a game as it was a virtual world? The three best examples of what I mean that immediately spring to mind are:
1. The first few levels of Pikmin for the Nintendo GameCube, where you can walk around, explore the environment, and learn about the physics and ecosystem of your world.
2. The LEGO Creator games that let you build with virtual LEGO bricks, drive around in your LEGO cars, or blow up LEGO buildings. The Harry Potter one even lets you walk around, as a LEGO wizard, and explore places like Diagon Alley.
3. Asheron's Call (and AC: Dark Majesty) for the PC, an MMOG, where you can choose to fight, hang about and chat, or go so far as to be a player killer. It's a game, but the open-endedness of it removes the requirement that you play it like a game and you can simply use it as an expensive version of IRC, if you don't mind not having anything.
Has this been done? Are there any 3D MMOG's or single player games where fighting and combat aren't a requirement, and where a limited set of physics and tools allow you to create and build things to show off with others? Maybe an online LEGO world?
Providing that this hasn't been done, has anyone ever given thought to how hard something like this would be? Would a world with a limited set of physics and tools -- and I understand it would have to be quite limited, as The Matrix and Metaverse are a few decades off *g* -- be more difficult to design that an average MMOG or Quake Arena?
Any thoughts or opinions are welcomed, since this is sort of what I'd like to do when I get around to playing with the engine. Thanks!
Has anyone ever created an MMOG that wasn't so much a game as it was a virtual world? The three best examples of what I mean that immediately spring to mind are:
1. The first few levels of Pikmin for the Nintendo GameCube, where you can walk around, explore the environment, and learn about the physics and ecosystem of your world.
2. The LEGO Creator games that let you build with virtual LEGO bricks, drive around in your LEGO cars, or blow up LEGO buildings. The Harry Potter one even lets you walk around, as a LEGO wizard, and explore places like Diagon Alley.
3. Asheron's Call (and AC: Dark Majesty) for the PC, an MMOG, where you can choose to fight, hang about and chat, or go so far as to be a player killer. It's a game, but the open-endedness of it removes the requirement that you play it like a game and you can simply use it as an expensive version of IRC, if you don't mind not having anything.
Has this been done? Are there any 3D MMOG's or single player games where fighting and combat aren't a requirement, and where a limited set of physics and tools allow you to create and build things to show off with others? Maybe an online LEGO world?
Providing that this hasn't been done, has anyone ever given thought to how hard something like this would be? Would a world with a limited set of physics and tools -- and I understand it would have to be quite limited, as The Matrix and Metaverse are a few decades off *g* -- be more difficult to design that an average MMOG or Quake Arena?
Any thoughts or opinions are welcomed, since this is sort of what I'd like to do when I get around to playing with the engine. Thanks!
#2
I was playing around with it in the beta, which just ended.
It is pretty interesting, but not so much so that I intend to pay to play or uh, use the full version.
06/25/2003 (12:23 pm)
Http://secondlife.com/I was playing around with it in the beta, which just ended.
It is pretty interesting, but not so much so that I intend to pay to play or uh, use the full version.
#4
06/25/2003 (4:21 pm)
Mindark has a MMOG where the virtual economy actually relates to real money so you can put money in and take it out. The cut they take allows them to fund the service without charging for a monthly fee (a pseudo government or something) but time will tell if its a viable business model.
#5
06/25/2003 (5:01 pm)
The Sims?
#6
07/09/2003 (6:05 am)
I just read about a MM that is going to be coming out soon called "There." It really isn't a game, but has a few mini-game items in it for those who want it. It was in PC Gamer's latest issue, if you are interested in it.
#7
We have a lot of ideas on many alternatives to fighting and tradeskills, things that aren't remotley related to fighting that will allow your character to gain up in advancement. Of course we can't give this out sicne we intend to employ these ideas but think :)
Our inspiriation came from playing role-play enforced MUDS and a UO shard that was rp enforced. In role-playing enforced games it is more about the social aspect of your character then how well he can kill something. It gets to be a lot of fun especailly with pking as you don't just run up and pk the guy but your character must have a reason. That is one reason we also are developing methods to keep it a role-playing enviroment for our game (we have a few ideas and we dont' care also if the community has to be small for us to manage it)
anywyas tata
--KallDrexx
07/09/2003 (6:29 am)
Yeah me and my friends have noticed a huge lack of quality in latest MMORPGs and we have really been looking for one with an alternnatvie to fighting. Horizons hits close (but it will still suck sicne they took out race wars.... bah they should have left that in damn whiners) to what we are looking for but just misses the mark.We have a lot of ideas on many alternatives to fighting and tradeskills, things that aren't remotley related to fighting that will allow your character to gain up in advancement. Of course we can't give this out sicne we intend to employ these ideas but think :)
Our inspiriation came from playing role-play enforced MUDS and a UO shard that was rp enforced. In role-playing enforced games it is more about the social aspect of your character then how well he can kill something. It gets to be a lot of fun especailly with pking as you don't just run up and pk the guy but your character must have a reason. That is one reason we also are developing methods to keep it a role-playing enviroment for our game (we have a few ideas and we dont' care also if the community has to be small for us to manage it)
anywyas tata
--KallDrexx
#8
You can actually buy virtual real estate and do whatever you want with it. The demo is free I think, for people to just walk around and chat. Your called a "tourist" in the demo mode I think. You can make a virtual store and sell stuff people who walk(or warp) in as a 3D "avatar".
07/09/2003 (7:05 am)
Check out http://www.activeworlds.com/You can actually buy virtual real estate and do whatever you want with it. The demo is free I think, for people to just walk around and chat. Your called a "tourist" in the demo mode I think. You can make a virtual store and sell stuff people who walk(or warp) in as a 3D "avatar".
#9
As KallDrexx mentioned, the "old" days were full of RPG games where there was NO killing. It was all social MUDs and MUSHes and MOOs. Some claim that EQ fits in that model, but not really. The virtual worlds (VRML) that tried to make a dent in the late 90s came close.
Really if you have the horsepower for the server, spin up a dedicated Torque game as a virtual world. The modifications I would make to try to stay true to an RPG type system:
-remove combat completely. No weapons, no combat code, no killing. This makes it easy to deal with pking as there is none.
-create some kind of real-time environment. This can be completely scripted. In MUDs, weather and time were done as just text messages blurted out to the online users. With a 3D game, you have some extra flash you can add but the focus here is to make the environment a living one, not static. Weather, animals, time, etc. all can be scripted and have plenty of logic in them to create that simulated world feel
-plan and build some kind of social structure. If it's cavement, then that's pretty simple. A fantasy RPG would have a monetary system, some form of governments, quests, etc. Basically stuff to keep the users busy. Quests can be completely non-combative if that's what you want to do. Find this item, be the first to be at this location, etc.
Stuff like that is more like what the MUDs of old were. Pure social living eco-systems. The users made the games what they were, not the technology.
07/09/2003 (7:12 am)
I have a pretty sour taste in my mouth for MMORPGs. They're few and far between with what's out there (from what people have told me, Dark Age of Camelot is close to being there but still has a combat element). I've played them all and they're all pretty much the same.As KallDrexx mentioned, the "old" days were full of RPG games where there was NO killing. It was all social MUDs and MUSHes and MOOs. Some claim that EQ fits in that model, but not really. The virtual worlds (VRML) that tried to make a dent in the late 90s came close.
Really if you have the horsepower for the server, spin up a dedicated Torque game as a virtual world. The modifications I would make to try to stay true to an RPG type system:
-remove combat completely. No weapons, no combat code, no killing. This makes it easy to deal with pking as there is none.
-create some kind of real-time environment. This can be completely scripted. In MUDs, weather and time were done as just text messages blurted out to the online users. With a 3D game, you have some extra flash you can add but the focus here is to make the environment a living one, not static. Weather, animals, time, etc. all can be scripted and have plenty of logic in them to create that simulated world feel
-plan and build some kind of social structure. If it's cavement, then that's pretty simple. A fantasy RPG would have a monetary system, some form of governments, quests, etc. Basically stuff to keep the users busy. Quests can be completely non-combative if that's what you want to do. Find this item, be the first to be at this location, etc.
Stuff like that is more like what the MUDs of old were. Pure social living eco-systems. The users made the games what they were, not the technology.
#10
Starwars Galaxies offers paths for non-combat orientated peopel to take with professions for Artisian (crafter), Entertainer, buisnessman, and image consultant (think hairdresser and plastic surgeon). It has a 100% player driven economy as well.
07/09/2003 (7:21 am)
The problem with no combat etc is that you can't attract a big enough market to make it worth while unless you're building something like the Sims Online and then you have a whole slew of problems and ways for people to "grief" others. One only has to look as far as meridian 59 to see that.Starwars Galaxies offers paths for non-combat orientated peopel to take with professions for Artisian (crafter), Entertainer, buisnessman, and image consultant (think hairdresser and plastic surgeon). It has a 100% player driven economy as well.
#11
However, you can make a good game wihtout combat. A tale in the desert (previously mentioned I think) is a great game with a huge player base (not sure exact amount but there were a lot of people playing when I played last time). The only problem I found with it is there was no real way to deffrentiate (sp?) myself from other players. While all the bigger guilds were working more on learning new technology all the little guilds and communities were just busy dealing with teh basics, picking grass, gathering the supplies to make more machines, etc and when yo uwere all "done" and even when you got yoruself to where you were producing items and whatnot fast as the big guilds you still were no different then them. There really wasn't any kind of custimization that you can do and thats why I got bored. Kinad hard to explain but I think you get the idea.
The only thing that is keeping me in daoc is the Realm vs Realm system. The idea, and execution from what I hear, is great. The only problem is you need to be a much higher level to do it (40-50) and untill then you are stuck basically just killing monsters untill you level. That alone has me on the verge of quitting my account, especially since as I"ve played a friends level 40+ characters it takes forever to level after level 40. I don't have time for that and my efforts are better spent elsewhere!
Which brings me to another thing. Another concept that I htink will work great is the ageing system in Horizons. All MMORPGS out there right now basically work that the more time you put into it the more powerful you are. This makes casual gamers (gamers who do not have that much time in their week to play) extremely weak compared to the powergamers. Horizons aging system balances it out in a great way so casual gamers aren't penalized in anyway (as long as they do play some) but powergamers still get a bit of an advantage. If anyone wants I can explain how the system works but I've typed too much already lol :P
And last but not least, if you are thinking of making an MMORPG I don't think torque would be the best way. If you notice in MMORPGs npcs usually go through objects every once and a while. This is done because the server doens't actually load the teraing nor the objects into memory nor does the collision detection on its own, thus lowering the load the server machine has to take. All collision detections are done on the client side (easily noticed if you get daoc to work in winex. The client screws up and doens't do all the collision detections and thus you can climb objects are aren't supposed to, go through objects you arent' supposed to, and are no longer stopped by the invisible zone borders :D). Torque is setup as it is to do collisions on both the client and the server then has the clients sync up with the server to make sure they did the calculatiosn right (correct me if i'm wrong tho...). It would take some modification to use.
--to be continued
07/09/2003 (10:42 am)
Heh now mind you I didn't say we wouldn't have no killing. Even though Stanley's comment is true (about not enough market for non-killing games) I still find combat fun. I just don't want the gameplay to be totally based around killing or rather making the user forced to live that life. I play daoc now, the only MMORPG I can stand but I'm getting bored of it really fast and trust me there is no real alternative to fighting, except for crafting items that will help you fight better. However, you can make a good game wihtout combat. A tale in the desert (previously mentioned I think) is a great game with a huge player base (not sure exact amount but there were a lot of people playing when I played last time). The only problem I found with it is there was no real way to deffrentiate (sp?) myself from other players. While all the bigger guilds were working more on learning new technology all the little guilds and communities were just busy dealing with teh basics, picking grass, gathering the supplies to make more machines, etc and when yo uwere all "done" and even when you got yoruself to where you were producing items and whatnot fast as the big guilds you still were no different then them. There really wasn't any kind of custimization that you can do and thats why I got bored. Kinad hard to explain but I think you get the idea.
The only thing that is keeping me in daoc is the Realm vs Realm system. The idea, and execution from what I hear, is great. The only problem is you need to be a much higher level to do it (40-50) and untill then you are stuck basically just killing monsters untill you level. That alone has me on the verge of quitting my account, especially since as I"ve played a friends level 40+ characters it takes forever to level after level 40. I don't have time for that and my efforts are better spent elsewhere!
Which brings me to another thing. Another concept that I htink will work great is the ageing system in Horizons. All MMORPGS out there right now basically work that the more time you put into it the more powerful you are. This makes casual gamers (gamers who do not have that much time in their week to play) extremely weak compared to the powergamers. Horizons aging system balances it out in a great way so casual gamers aren't penalized in anyway (as long as they do play some) but powergamers still get a bit of an advantage. If anyone wants I can explain how the system works but I've typed too much already lol :P
And last but not least, if you are thinking of making an MMORPG I don't think torque would be the best way. If you notice in MMORPGs npcs usually go through objects every once and a while. This is done because the server doens't actually load the teraing nor the objects into memory nor does the collision detection on its own, thus lowering the load the server machine has to take. All collision detections are done on the client side (easily noticed if you get daoc to work in winex. The client screws up and doens't do all the collision detections and thus you can climb objects are aren't supposed to, go through objects you arent' supposed to, and are no longer stopped by the invisible zone borders :D). Torque is setup as it is to do collisions on both the client and the server then has the clients sync up with the server to make sure they did the calculatiosn right (correct me if i'm wrong tho...). It would take some modification to use.
--to be continued
#12
*edit* nevermind I was wrong about cal3d *edit*
An MMORPG engine that I stopped keeping track of long ago but still is worth checking out is nevrax. I've never used it nor looked at it much either (i think ti's at www.nevrax.org) but I think some people here have made comments about it.
--KallDRexx
07/09/2003 (10:42 am)
-- previous post continued.. stupid 4096 character limit lol*edit* nevermind I was wrong about cal3d *edit*
An MMORPG engine that I stopped keeping track of long ago but still is worth checking out is nevrax. I've never used it nor looked at it much either (i think ti's at www.nevrax.org) but I think some people here have made comments about it.
--KallDRexx
#13
It's a library for drawing skeletally animated characters. It's one very small part of a complete engine.
07/09/2003 (10:44 am)
Cal3d isn't an engine.It's a library for drawing skeletally animated characters. It's one very small part of a complete engine.
#14
I totally misread that paragraph many times :( sorry about that
--KallDrexx
07/09/2003 (10:52 am)
Err crap your right :( I totally misread that paragraph many times :( sorry about that
--KallDrexx
Torque Owner Mz