Unity3D vs The World
by James · in General Discussion · 03/20/2010 (1:01 pm) · 50 replies
<rant>
I've been using Torque since the V12 days back in 2001. I got the 1.5 update in '07 and the T3D update a couple weeks ago. In addition to Torque I own (paid) licenses to A6, Blitz3D, C4, Power Render, and Unity. Over the years I've frequented and participated in the communities of all these tools, and as can be expected the Great Engine Debate comes up at least once every season. Obviously there is going to be a bias slant in each product's respective forum, but you typically get pretty balanced discussion on both sides of the argument. Typically.
In the past year that I've been using Unity, however, I've noticed that these discussions always become very polarized and offensive on their forums. They're usually as bad if not worse than the Great PC vs Mac flame wars. I've often seen false impressions, misinformation, and blatant lies spread about their competition by the users, and in some cases even their staff. Unity Technology staff members (and even one corporate officer) have, on occasion, gone to the forums of competing products to further the debate.
Is it just me or does anyone else think this is a huge detriment to the product? Unity is a fine engine, don't get me wrong, but to see such inane babble makes them seem desperate. Add the fact that they make their $200 product free (thereby angering a huge number of users) then gloat about how they've had 90,000 new users since. I've been using Unity for two years now and have released several products with it, but their slowness in adding functionality and apparent lack of desire to make the (now free) Indy version a viable option has got me seriously eying the competition. It's looking more and more that I'll be back to T3D for the next project.
</rant>
__________
james
I've been using Torque since the V12 days back in 2001. I got the 1.5 update in '07 and the T3D update a couple weeks ago. In addition to Torque I own (paid) licenses to A6, Blitz3D, C4, Power Render, and Unity. Over the years I've frequented and participated in the communities of all these tools, and as can be expected the Great Engine Debate comes up at least once every season. Obviously there is going to be a bias slant in each product's respective forum, but you typically get pretty balanced discussion on both sides of the argument. Typically.
In the past year that I've been using Unity, however, I've noticed that these discussions always become very polarized and offensive on their forums. They're usually as bad if not worse than the Great PC vs Mac flame wars. I've often seen false impressions, misinformation, and blatant lies spread about their competition by the users, and in some cases even their staff. Unity Technology staff members (and even one corporate officer) have, on occasion, gone to the forums of competing products to further the debate.
Is it just me or does anyone else think this is a huge detriment to the product? Unity is a fine engine, don't get me wrong, but to see such inane babble makes them seem desperate. Add the fact that they make their $200 product free (thereby angering a huge number of users) then gloat about how they've had 90,000 new users since. I've been using Unity for two years now and have released several products with it, but their slowness in adding functionality and apparent lack of desire to make the (now free) Indy version a viable option has got me seriously eying the competition. It's looking more and more that I'll be back to T3D for the next project.
</rant>
__________
james
About the author
Software engineer by day, game developer by night, eye strain 'round the clock.
#42
03/24/2010 (3:59 pm)
Being able to add any decompression you need is another nice bonus.
#43
03/24/2010 (4:44 pm)
@Daniel, you actually touched on something I've been meaning to ask. How much can one do these days purely in torque script? Can you write a complete solution in script or do you still need the source? Is the binary only release just an "artist version" like I keep reading? 
#44
IT DEPENDS.
I don't mean to be rude - I just mean to convey the impression of words chiselled into stone for all eternity ;P. TS is a powerful language and you can do plenty in script alone - just look at something like the UAISK.
03/24/2010 (10:50 pm)
I can say only:IT DEPENDS.
I don't mean to be rude - I just mean to convey the impression of words chiselled into stone for all eternity ;P. TS is a powerful language and you can do plenty in script alone - just look at something like the UAISK.
#45
To echo and expand on what Daniel has said: It depends on what problem you're looking to get a solution for. For my project, I have a handful of code changes that I've had to make for certain things, but some of those things can also be solved through script (there is a map resource out there that is completely script-driven, and for database access, I can use HTTP objects- which I might wind up doing anyway, which are script-based).
I find it better to have the source available if you're working with gameplay mechanics or anything past what an artist or level designer would be doing, but that's just me.
03/25/2010 (9:27 am)
Quote:Can you write a complete solution in script or do you still need the source?
To echo and expand on what Daniel has said: It depends on what problem you're looking to get a solution for. For my project, I have a handful of code changes that I've had to make for certain things, but some of those things can also be solved through script (there is a map resource out there that is completely script-driven, and for database access, I can use HTTP objects- which I might wind up doing anyway, which are script-based).
I find it better to have the source available if you're working with gameplay mechanics or anything past what an artist or level designer would be doing, but that's just me.
#46
03/25/2010 (9:33 am)
My superhero power of vagueness has defeated you! ;) Let me ask a less uselessly general question. Could one write Pong or Tetris in script? How about something like Super Mario World? If so, casual game devs should really start jumping for joy!
#47
With that said Torque has had its own issues with promised or half-completed features in the past, so no engine is perfect, but the difference I see is that Unity is mortgaging the future to try to get rapid growth and adoption now.
As for source code, while accessible if you pay extra, I have heard rumblings that they actually own any changes that you make to the source code :(
People can argue all they want whether or not you need source code access, but all I will say is that this scares me silly. One of the few assets that a company owns in game development are their own custom APIs and implementations of processes that they create, its what helps bring value and keep a competetive edge over every other nickle and dime developer out there. Remember, you aren't just building games here, you are building a business so you need to make the decisions that you feel works best for you. Maybe you are comfortable with not needing source code or owning changes, maybe you arent, but knowledge is power and will help you make the decisions you need to make.
The big thing that I think people forget is what it really comes down to with an engine is how productive you can be with it. All the features in the world dont mean jack if they're difficult to work with or you spend more time trying to work with them than making and tweaking the game and gameplay experiance. I don't really care what engine you use, they all have their pros and cons a person can champion.
03/25/2010 (10:36 am)
While the Umbra and Beast integrations seem pretty impressive at first, its best to really look at them as a "Lite" version that doesn't deliver all the bells and whistles that the full licensed versions do. Its a catch that Unity fails to come clean about in their marketing/promotion and will probably bite them in the ass eventually as its not something that people are very receptive to.With that said Torque has had its own issues with promised or half-completed features in the past, so no engine is perfect, but the difference I see is that Unity is mortgaging the future to try to get rapid growth and adoption now.
As for source code, while accessible if you pay extra, I have heard rumblings that they actually own any changes that you make to the source code :(
People can argue all they want whether or not you need source code access, but all I will say is that this scares me silly. One of the few assets that a company owns in game development are their own custom APIs and implementations of processes that they create, its what helps bring value and keep a competetive edge over every other nickle and dime developer out there. Remember, you aren't just building games here, you are building a business so you need to make the decisions that you feel works best for you. Maybe you are comfortable with not needing source code or owning changes, maybe you arent, but knowledge is power and will help you make the decisions you need to make.
The big thing that I think people forget is what it really comes down to with an engine is how productive you can be with it. All the features in the world dont mean jack if they're difficult to work with or you spend more time trying to work with them than making and tweaking the game and gameplay experiance. I don't really care what engine you use, they all have their pros and cons a person can champion.
#48
Of course. No problem. You could implement them 2D in the GUI or in full 3D.
These games have trivial gameplay logic so it actually wouldn't be a good measure of where the limits are.
03/25/2010 (11:42 am)
Quote:Could one write Pong or Tetris in script?
Of course. No problem. You could implement them 2D in the GUI or in full 3D.
These games have trivial gameplay logic so it actually wouldn't be a good measure of where the limits are.
#49
03/25/2010 (11:55 am)
Thanks, Rene, that's actually a perfect response. "Of course." I still see comments on some forums saying the only thing you can do in Torque (without editing the source) is first person shooters. Some of the people making these comments are working on basic platformers or puzzle games that I always thought were doable in script with TGE, but I'd never tried so I didn't really know.
#50
One thing to note is that this is the first ever binary version of Torque. This means that for the first time ever, development has to take into account that there isn't necessarily source-code access available to the user. I think this will make a big difference in the future in how the binary API develops.
What's there now is primarily the result of what has developed in the previous, full-source-code-included versions. I expect upcoming versions to more and more reflect this shift here and ultimately see profound changes to what can be done at the control level.
Another thing I see going for Torque when talking about the binary version is that if it turns out the license won't be enough for you, the jump is not as big as with Unity where Pro is at $1500 (though the reasons you would upgrade are pretty different of course).
@Logan
Interesting thoughts there about what Unity is doing.
They do get some things very right though and I think we can take a slice out here and there. Pure polish is one thing, for example.
03/25/2010 (1:07 pm)
@JamesOne thing to note is that this is the first ever binary version of Torque. This means that for the first time ever, development has to take into account that there isn't necessarily source-code access available to the user. I think this will make a big difference in the future in how the binary API develops.
What's there now is primarily the result of what has developed in the previous, full-source-code-included versions. I expect upcoming versions to more and more reflect this shift here and ultimately see profound changes to what can be done at the control level.
Another thing I see going for Torque when talking about the binary version is that if it turns out the license won't be enough for you, the jump is not as big as with Unity where Pro is at $1500 (though the reasons you would upgrade are pretty different of course).
@Logan
Interesting thoughts there about what Unity is doing.
They do get some things very right though and I think we can take a slice out here and there. Pure polish is one thing, for example.
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